Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

[Amir]

I can agree with the fact that it was a bad chioce to address what made him so emotionless so later in the arc, but why was his development terrible?

Compared to someone like Hit, who also changed due to Goku's influence, it was overly dramatic and exaggerated. Perhaps it wouldn't have been so bad if they didn't address it 3 or 4 episodes before the end, but that way it just felt shallow.

To be fair, Jiren's state was much more grim and desperate than Hit's, infact Hit's character didn't suffer from any emotional past conflict so it didn't need to be dramatic. With Jiren, I say it had every right and needed to be dramatic, but in the end I guess that's my opinion,but yeah I agree about the bad choice of addressing the issue 4 episodes before the end, I have no idea why the writers did that.

On a side note, Frieza was really awesome in this episode, his sarcasm, trash talking and jokes were spot on.

What are the odds the anime added the "Ultra Instinct is gone" bit just to have Goku and Vegeta be equals at the end?

A very high chance. But what about Vegeta's new Blue evolution? Surely he can still access that, right? Would be stupid if he can't, since he managed to do that multiple times with full control and ease.

[Brettjr25]

I just think they should've made a more "risky" ending, with everlasting consequences. This was just way too safe to leave an impact, and i'm of the opinion that wishing all universes back made the entire plot completely superfluous. Frieza getting revived was a cool touch, but the way they did it was stupid.

I thought the ending was a nice foil to the Zamasu arc, which had a god completely disillusioned on humanity to the point he wanted to wipe them all out, overlooking the good parts of humanity and focusing only on the bad. This arc sees Zeno pit all of the universes against each other on the hunch that the winner would do everyone a solid and make an unselfish wish to restore everything, focusing only on the good part of humanity and overlooking the bad. I'm trying really hard to have an issue with Freeza being revived. After all his arc in Dragon Ball Z is arguably the best, and if not the best is undeniably filled with many strong moments that make it classic. It could just be my nostalgia for the old series but I felt like Freeza staying dead after wiping out all of the Saiyans except for the one that ended up being the Super Saiyan was a very natural place for that arc to end. Having Freeza be alive again, with a new form allowing him to compete against Goku and building up his evil army again is great for nostalgia and all, but I don't think any of us really want a Freeza Saga 2.0 do we?

I think you mean Freeza Saga 3.0. ROF was basically Supers version of the original saga, style over substance and plot with Freeza the main villain. I do think we will see more of Freeza because its a situation like the Pilaf gang. Toriyama likes the VAs and are friendly with them so he wants to keep them around and employed, which is why after rof we got Frost and after Frost we got Freeza again. You may think this is cynicism but unfortunately I believe its just true.

[TheZFighter]

What an episode and what an ending! 17, Jiren, the Frieza and Goku stuff, the ToP pay-offs, brilliant.

[AnimeNation101]

Told you they wouldn't erased all of Super with a wish. Jiren lost. All universes came back.

Thank God for that. Turning the clock back would've been the worst thing they could do.

No this was absolutely worse. The series is incomplete.

The entire point of the ToP was that there were too many universes in general and they would get rid of the low mortal levels universes. The problem wasn’t the low mortal levels it was too many universes to begin with. “Supposedly”

Further we are led to believe that Zeno is a destructive child like entity who doesn’t think before he acts hence the entire Trunks arc ending, who then suddenly at the end is revealed to be this wise sage foreseeing the outcome.

So to get this straight.
Everyone categorizes Zeno as someone who erases things on a whim like he did with the previous 6 universes and Trunks timeline.
So much so that even asking him to not destroy the universes or change the rules could result in destruction.

He then puts all these universes through the anguish of going through being erased in the first place and fighting in a somewhat savage tournament to prove they shouldn’t be destroyed.

Then reveals he is actually very wise and he didn’t really want the universes destroyed...
But what about all the other stuff he destroyed like the 6 universes and Trunks timeline and all the people on it.

Having seen it is makes ZERO sense with Zenos character. It wasn’t even a clever wish or ending and feels like it was completely changed at the last minute from its original ending. It is totally inconsistent with the entire build up to the ToP.

Now beyond that for he future we have even less tension
We now have a Zeno that cares about them and universes existing and who is God of everything, three sets of Dragonballs, Gokus two ultimate forms, and a Whis that can rewind time and raise the dead.

Ugh, the ending needed to be an intelligent solution to there predicament not a 6 year old level cope out.

This just amounted to “wish everyone back” and all that stuff Zeno did to build his characterization well he was just kidding as he clearly cares about the universes but not all the other things he erased on a whim.

Oh well. It is what it is and the majority are happy. Almost everyone would have raged if Super was completely erased. This was the better business decision rather than your idea of erasing everything. That would have made the whole series useless

[jeffbr92]

Hit never got a backstory other than "he's a hit-man".

Uh? Did you skip episodes #71 and #72? They actually show more about Hit character than just being a hitman.

[sintzu]

Oh well. It is what it is and the majority are happy. Almost everyone would have raged if Super was completely erased. This was the better business decision rather than your idea of erasing everything. That would have made the whole series useless

If they did something that stupid I and probably others would completely drop anything that's part of modern DB. What would be the point of sitting through and talking about 100s of episodes only for them to not count at the end ?

[TheMikado]

Thank God for that. Turning the clock back would've been the worst thing they could do.

No this was absolutely worse. The series is incomplete.

The entire point of the ToP was that there were too many universes in general and they would get rid of the low mortal levels universes. The problem wasn’t the low mortal levels it was too many universes to begin with. “Supposedly”

Further we are led to believe that Zeno is a destructive child like entity who doesn’t think before he acts hence the entire Trunks arc ending, who then suddenly at the end is revealed to be this wise sage foreseeing the outcome.

So to get this straight.
Everyone categorizes Zeno as someone who erases things on a whim like he did with the previous 6 universes and Trunks timeline.
So much so that even asking him to not destroy the universes or change the rules could result in destruction.

He then puts all these universes through the anguish of going through being erased in the first place and fighting in a somewhat savage tournament to prove they shouldn’t be destroyed.

Then reveals he is actually very wise and he didn’t really want the universes destroyed...
But what about all the other stuff he destroyed like the 6 universes and Trunks timeline and all the people on it.

Having seen it is makes ZERO sense with Zenos character. It wasn’t even a clever wish or ending and feels like it was completely changed at the last minute from its original ending. It is totally inconsistent with the entire build up to the ToP.

Now beyond that for he future we have even less tension
We now have a Zeno that cares about them and universes existing and who is God of everything, three sets of Dragonballs, Gokus two ultimate forms, and a Whis that can rewind time and raise the dead.

Ugh, the ending needed to be an intelligent solution to there predicament not a 6 year old level cope out.

This just amounted to “wish everyone back” and all that stuff Zeno did to build his characterization well he was just kidding as he clearly cares about the universes but not all the other things he erased on a whim.

Oh well. It is what it is and the majority are happy. Almost everyone would have raged if Super was completely erased. This was the better business decision rather than your idea of erasing everything. That would have made the whole series useless

If you want to make Saturday morning monster of the week kids shows it makes business sense.

I’ve already covered this in seperate post but as far as I’m concerned with every available option to get out of any scenario there’s no future for this franchise for me and I’ll enjoy what was and what the series use to be. Modern DB is dropped for me so I’ll be bowing out soon anyway.

[obiwan23s]

I think you mean Freeza Saga 3.0. ROF was basically Supers version of the original saga, style over substance and plot with Freeza the main villain. I do think we will see more of Freeza because its a situation like the Pilaf gang. Toriyama likes the VAs and are friendly with them so he wants to keep them around and employed, which is why after rof we got Frost and after Frost we got Freeza again. You may think this is cynicism but unfortunately I believe its just true.

I guess this just shows you how forgettable the ROF story was, at least to me anyway. This ending for Freeza seems like they're going to keep him around as a rival for Goku since Super gave Vegeta enough character development to take him out of that role. The ending scene shows them competing with each other again but we all know if shit hits the fan, Goku and Vegeta will be on the same team now. Freeza is a character who can't really cross over that line the way Vegeta did, because it would completely break his character. I was half expecting when Whis said "Then why don't you be happy too, Freeza-san" that his staff was going to make Freeza into a good guy instead of restore his life lol.

[TobyS]

A very fun episode. Good end to the series.
Took the bad taste from the last manga chapter out.

People who didn't enjoy this have no souls.

People who watched every single episode of super to date. Haven't enjoyed 90-100% of it and come on here to whine and suck the joy out of everyone else need to get a fucking grip on life.

[Xehanort]

People who didn't enjoy this have no souls.

Are you serious with this?

[Zillamon51]

Wow. I am surprised and impressed that they managed to wrap everything up, and deliver a strong and satisfying ending on such short notice. I'm happy with it, I'm looking forward to the movie, and I'll be quite happy if a Dragonball series returns next year.

Sayonara for now, Son Goku and friends!

[TobyS]

People who didn't enjoy this have no souls.

Are you serious with this?

Yes the real world metaphysical concept of the immortal soul can be measured by whether people complained about a children's cartoon show.

Or was being hyperbolic about sad people whining about good stuff and killing everyone else's buzz.

[emperior]

Zeno has always been quite mysterious chracterisation-wise. When he first gets introduced he acted quite mature, although he already showed some traits of his naivety and innocence. The second time we saw him he was already quite different, acting a lot like a child in Goku's presence and when he asks him to be his friend. Then when Future Zeno is summoned in the future, he doesn't give a shit about the whole multiverse and erases it just because Zamasu was annoying him. Afterwards both the Zenos accept Goku's request to hold up a tournament, and decide it's also an occasion to erase the universes because there are too many. Now we are told they would have erased everything if the winner's wish wasn't a selfless one, and Whis comments that perhaps there is something only mortals can change, which foreshadows something more important happening in the future?
Is it possible that Zeno, child-like as he seems to be, actually has some sort of hidden agenda? The guy always has his guards by his side, and we still don't know anything about his origins, nor do we know about the Angels which seemingly come from a completely different realm than other Gods. But sometimes Zeno decides to act like some sort of wise God, and the Daishinkan too seems to be very wise - did they also predict the wish to bring back the other 6 universes Zeno erased in the past, if it has happened? Or will it happen as some sort of collateral they didn't think or care about?

I don't get if Toriyama is constantly changing his mind about where to take modern Dragon Ball's theme about deities, which would explain Zeno's messy characterisation, or if he actually has a clear idea of what exactly will happen in the future in regards to this whole Gods hierarchy he has created.

One thing is sure, among the mortals Goku shouldn't have anymore foes apart from Jiren who should still be stronger than he is if he can't use Ultra Instinct. His next mortal enemy will probably be from the erased universes/the 4 universes which didn't participate in the Tournament of Power.

[sintzu]

If you want to make Saturday morning monster of the week kids shows it makes business sense.

Modern DB is dropped for me so I’ll be bowing out soon anyway.

It isn't though. Jiren and to a lesser extent Toppo have been the main villains for over a year. Black was the villain for nearly half a year.

We're all dropping modern DB as it's done for the time being.

[Nickolaidas]

I loved how Bergamo had his arms around his brothers in the U9 resurrection shot.

[Zillamon51]

Wow. A lot of b!tching about Zeno. Look at it this way: Zeno has erased universes in the past. He was stated to be considering doing so again before the ToP. He held a tournament in which universes were erased, and he could do something similar again in the future. This time, the fate of everything rested on a good person winning it all. Frieza could very well have been the victor; what would have happened then? So the stakes of having a childish and temperamental god-king are still there.

On the other hand, Zeno has always been bored, and surrounded by scared yes-men. Goku's carefree attitude and fighting resolve began to win him over. Goku gave him a friend, his future counterpart, and is himself considered a friend. The stipulation revealed at the end was the first step towards a Zeno who is invested in, and cares about, the universes he oversees. So the Goku effect is still in full force.

[Xehanort]

Yes the real world metaphysical concept of the immortal soul can be measured by whether people complained about a children's cartoon show.

Or was being hyperbolic about sad people whining about good stuff and killing everyone else's buzz.

So you weren't serious then? A straight answer would've sufficed, don't see the need for sarcasm.

Your second phrase confused me though, "sad people"? I don't see anyone "whinnig" about good stuff, which that itself is completely subjective, and why would criticizing something they didn't entirely enjoy kill everyone's buzz?

[TheMikado]

If you want to make Saturday morning monster of the week kids shows it makes business sense.

Modern DB is dropped for me so I’ll be bowing out soon anyway.

It isn't though. Jiren and to a lesser extent Toppo have been the main villains for over a year. Black was the villain for nearly half a year.

We're all dropping modern DB as it's done for the time being.

Pokémon had team rocket and Gary the trainer as the main “villains” for years but that didn’t stop them from having monsters of the week.

The point I’m making is that there’s no consequences in the franchise now. There can’t be. To put it one way, if any character died there’s basically zero reason they should stay dead at this point, or if there’s any enemy there’s no reason Zeno could erase them unless every future arc involves Zeno being locked away somewhere.

I made a list in another thread of all the consequences they have had to endure long term. In Z Goku died twice, his best friend died, and all kinds of consequences occurred and they weren’t fixed within mins. That’s the shift in format I’m talking about.

I wrote about how I feel in love with Z after growing up on 80s and 90s cartoons where the protagonists were always ok , then seeing Goku die on screen for doing the right think and trying to let his brother live was a turning point in what I saw animation could be in terms of story and plot. But with so many ways to save their skin it’s gotten out of hand and entering the realm of a Saturday morning kids show that isn’t something I’m interested in.

[SonReggie]

A measure of how good an episode is, for me, how re-watchable it is.
The Goku/Freeza + 17 fight in this episode never gets old. I've lost count of the number of times have re-watched it. It hit all the right notes for me and is, in my opinion, the best fight the franchise ever gave us.

[TheMikado]

Zeno has always been quite mysterious chracterisation-wise. When he first gets introduced he acted quite mature, although he already showed some traits of his naivety and innocence. The second time we saw him he was already quite different, acting a lot like a child in Goku's presence and when he asks him to be his friend. Then when Future Zeno is summoned in the future, he doesn't give a shit about the whole multiverse and erases it just because Zamasu was annoying him. Afterwards both the Zenos accept Goku's request to hold up a tournament, and decide it's also an occasion to erase the universes because there are too many. Now we are told they would have erased everything if the winner's wish wasn't a selfless one, and Whis comments that perhaps there is something only mortals can change, which foreshadows something more important happening in the future?
Is it possible that Zeno, child-like as he seems to be, actually has some sort of hidden agenda? The guy always has his guards by his side, and we still don't know anything about his origins, nor do we know about the Angels which seemingly come from a completely different realm than other Gods. But sometimes Zeno decides to act like some sort of wise God, and the Daishinkan too seems to be very wise - did they also predict the wish to bring back the other 6 universes Zeno erased in the past, if it has happened? Or will it happen as some sort of collateral they didn't think or care about?

I don't get if Toriyama is constantly changing his mind about where to take modern Dragon Ball's theme about deities, which would explain Zeno's messy characterisation, or if he actually has a clear idea of what exactly will happen in the future in regards to this whole Gods hierarchy he has created.

One thing is sure, among the mortals Goku shouldn't have anymore foes apart from Jiren who should still be stronger than he is if he can't use Ultra Instinct. His next mortal enemy will probably be from the erased universes/the 4 universes which didn't participate in the Tournament of Power.

I think it would be great if Zeno has a hidden agenda and was pulling an act all along, but right now it just seems like a bunch of changing direction on his characterization.