The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

Don't underestimate that air punch. It's a specific technique which Kami taught to Goku, Piccolo mentioned that it resembled the demon clan's style. Goku used the punch on Piccolo during their fight, and it made Piccolo's head snap back. He wasn't actually hurt, but then again, neither was Chi-Chi. It was just a ring out.

And yes Goku wasn't going all out against Chi Chi. That's why I described him as "initial weighted Goku." Initial as in, before powering up, and weighted as in with his weights. But even with those two factors his speed was said to be the same as it was three years prior. That was the whole point of my argument.

The punch he used against Chichi was heavily suppressed. He even says he put too much into it, the one he used against Piccolo was much stronger.

And Weighted Goku's full speed was compared to the speed he had 3 years earlier, and he didn't use that until he fought Tenshinhan.

[DBZAOTA482]

The real question is do you have proof? Chi-chi could most likely be killed by bullets

On basis exactly...? She can take a shockwave move, something of which Muten Roshi himself had a bit of trouble comprehending, which sent her flying at high-speed into a concrete wall headfirst and she got up barely hurt despite Goku worrying that he might have used too much energy.

and would get crapped on by both Roshi or Tao, who would lose to King Piccolo. There is absolutely 0 evidence she got that much stronger. And Tien trains every day, you can't compare them. And even Tien's power level was only 250 at the BOZ which was around King Piccolo level. I don't see how Chi-chi would automatically be stronger than King Piccolo just because time has passed. Roshi is over 300 years old, has gone through a multitude of special training, and destroyed a mountain and the moon, and still said he couldn't beat King Piccolo. Saying Chi-chi has surpassed King Piccolo is like saying the farmer with a shotgun surpassed him because 20 years have passed. Just because this is dragon ball doesn't mean everyone keeps getting stronger.

Chi-Chi was already naturally strong as a kid as shown from her effortless killing of a T-rex which is a feat not even considered normal by Dragon Ball standards and she under went the Turtle School training within the 7 years much like Goku and Krillin so it's very possible to make that much gains.

She made it past the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai rather easily which was the most decisive year due to high levels set by Goku and Tien in the last one. She was able to hold her own against Goku... the same Goku who effortlessly defeated the powered-up King Chappa... to which Muten Roshi (who generally isn't impressed with fighters weaker than him) himself outright praised her level of skill.

The Farmer comparison is just silly... in fact, I didn't even say she was stronger than Daimao. At most I have her as strong as Old Piccolo Daimao.

She had control of her ki blast. And Trunk's ki blast clearly would of obliterated the ring if it hit.

Trunks' blast didn't even come close to hitting the ring much less destroying it and besides, if she's so much stronger then she could've taken care of it with no problems. It's not like Trunks is some amateur either... he's shown amazing ki control.

Chi-Chi's strength has always been interesting to me.

At the very least, I think it's agreeable that she surpassed Goku and Tenshinhan's level from the 22nd tournament. Weighted Goku's speed was equal to his speed against Daimao, and Chi-Chi was able to keep that Goku on his toes and force him to block, rather than casually dodging her. Basically, look at how 22nd Goku compared against less than 50% of old Daimao's power. Piccolo wouldn't be forced to dodge, that was a horrific stomp where he could have sidestepped every blow from Goku with a smile. This means Chi-Chi, in order to make a character of far greater speed block, must be far stronger than 22nd Goku.

Alternatively, assuming initial weighted Goku = initial Tenshinhan, look at how much stronger Chi-Chi's performance was compared to Cyborg Tao. Tao and Tsuru both should have had a firm grasp of Tenshinhan's strength at the 22nd Budokai, and as a Cyborg, Tao was confident that he had ascended to a level Tenshinhan would never be able to reach. He should be at least as strong as Drum if you ask me, ascending to the tier of demons would be the next step, something he might believe Tenshinhan could never naturally achieve. If Chi-Chi gave a stronger performance than him, she must be stronger than the 22nd level fighters.

That said, she isn't on par with Daimao because she was still ultimately much slower than weighted Goku, whose speed was about equal to Daimao. She might be as strong as old Daimao, but that's the most I'd be willing to give her.

I doubt 50% Daimao could casually take Goku out with the air pressure from a punch.

And Goku wasn't using anywhere close to his real power against Chichi, it's kind of like him fighting Kuririn back in the 22nd Budokai but even more suppressed.

Correction: The shockwave from a punch that shocked Muten Roshi (he even said something about Goku having strike with a ton of force), Krillin, and Yamcha from it's sheer power, and caught Piccolo's attention, because it was a technique his Mazoku clan uses. 50% Daimao would definitely beat Goku with it.

I know Goku wasn't using anywhere close to his real power but even Initial Weighted Goku should be a lot more powerful than he was during the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai.

He kinda does:

Chapter: 171, P4.1
Kame-sennin: “I don’t know quite what’s going on here, but that girl is quite a master…Wh-what’s more, [her style] resembles my own Kame-sen School…”

I don't think that means Chi Chi surpassed Roshi, it's more like Roshi was amazed at her power, but not that she surpassed him. For her to be a master, I'm sure that she's probably a bit below Tsuru, possibly stronger than 22nd Budokai Krillin. I'm also convinced that she's stronger than Chappa, who is stronger than Tao.

You forgot to put in your opinion... Especially considering all evidence points the other way as I've shown.

Yes, your rather biased evidence.

[nickzambuto]

Who is the strongest character Boo arc Piccolo could defeat with a finger flick?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Who is the strongest character Boo arc Piccolo could defeat with a finger flick?

Define "defeat." Defeat as in kill or just incapacitate? Or just send them flying without knocking them out?

[ekrolo2]

Ultimate Gohan can use KK up to X10 and runs 2 Vegetto gauntlets one after the other. The first is vs Manga Vegetto from Base to SS3, the second is anime Vegetto from Base to SS3, how does he fare?

[dragon boss z]

On basis exactly...? She can take a shockwave move, something of which Muten Roshi himself had a bit of trouble comprehending, which sent her flying at high-speed into a concrete wall headfirst and she got up barely hurt despite Goku worrying that he might have used too much energy.

And Mr. Satan was hit by Trunks and cracked the brick wall and got up from that.

Chi-Chi was already naturally strong as a kid as shown from her effortless killing of a T-rex which is a feat not even considered normal by Dragon Ball standards and she under went the Turtle School training within the 7 years much like Goku and Krillin so it's very possible to make that much gains.

She had turtle school training? Show me the scan. And that would put her at maybe 22nd Krillin level at best.

She made it past the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai rather easily which was the most decisive year due to high levels set by Goku and Tien in the last one. She was able to hold her own against Goku... the same Goku who effortlessly defeated the powered-up King Chappa... to which Muten Roshi (who generally isn't impressed with fighters weaker than him) himself outright praised her level of skill.

She's good, no doubt about that. But King Piccolo is on another level. Even 21st Roshi was able to beat Yamaha with just the wind from his hand. Chi chi has shown nothing on that level.

The Farmer comparison is just silly... in fact, I didn't even say she was stronger than Daimao. At most I have her as strong as Old Piccolo Daimao.

That's a bit more fare. But I would still put her under 21st Roshi. Especially since Roshi can beat people without touching them and that power completely shocked Chi chi.

Trunks' blast didn't even come close to hitting the ring much less destroying it and besides, if she's so much stronger then she could've taken care of it with no problems. It's not like Trunks is some amateur either... he's shown amazing ki control.

If the blast hit 18 the explosion may of reached the audience.

Yes, your rather biased evidence.

Lol. How are facts bias evidence?
Tao has better feats: fact
The only thing that points to Chappa being stronger is a statement from Roshi that says he is strong: fact
Roshi later makes a statement that implies he thinks beating Tao is more impressive than beating Chappa: fact

[TheUltimateNinja]

Ultimate Gohan can use KK up to X10 and runs 2 Vegetto gauntlets one after the other. The first is vs Manga Vegetto from Base to SS3, the second is anime Vegetto from Base to SS3, how does he fare?

I'm going to be charitable here and say he can beat SSJ2 Manga Vegetto, he gets annihilated by any form of Anime Vegetto.

[DBZAOTA482]

And Mr. Satan was hit by Trunks and cracked the brick wall and got up from that.

REALLY?!! That was obviously for comic relief! Simply getting slammed into a wall with great force is more likely to kill someone than a bullet, which did almost kill Mr. Satan in a serious moment.

She had turtle school training? Show me the scan. And that would put her at maybe 22nd Krillin level at best.

Muten Roshi mentioned her style resembling his Turtle Hermit style immediately after praising her skill level and her father is Gyumao... a former pupil of Muten Roshi.

She's good, no doubt about that. But King Piccolo is on another level. Even 21st Roshi was able to beat Yamaha with just the wind from his hand. Chi chi has shown nothing on that level.

It's more of a matter technique than strength (though it definitely can count for both). Tao's pillar throwing feat is more visually more impressive than anything shown after it.

Besides, Chi-Chi can jump very high like Jackie Chun could in that tournament... except more casually and can fight well while up in the air... something never even seen till the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai.

That's a bit more fare. But I would still put her under 21st Roshi. Especially since Roshi can beat people without touching them and that power completely shocked Chi chi.

That power completely shocked Yamcha, Krillin, and a much stronger Muten Roshi as well... are they also below 21st Budokai Jackie Chun?

If the blast hit 18 the explosion may of reached the audience.

#18 can easily stop a blast that can only destroy the whole stadium.

Yes, your rather biased evidence.

Lol. How are facts bias evidence?

Claiming there facts are biased... for starters.

Tao has better feats: fact

This is opinion. One can argue Chappa's 8-arms technique and the fact he wasn't instantly beaten by a Goku that was world's above the one that beat Tao's ass are better feats.

The only thing that points to Chappa being stronger is a statement from Roshi that says he is strong: fact

Again, opinion and Chun also feared for his chances of winning the tournament after Goku revealed it was just toying with Chappa. Not to mention Chun and Yamcha thinking he might lose despite seeing him fight seriously on Baba Palace and knowing he'd get even stronger but are shocked to see Goku win easily.

Roshi later makes a statement that implies he thinks beating Tao is more impressive than beating Chappa: fact

Opinion... Chun's statement doesn't imply superiority to Tao at all and it wouldn't even make sense for him to hold Tao's power with such a high regard at a point of the story where his power isn't even relevant.

[ZombieVito]

Who is the strongest character Boo arc Piccolo could defeat with a finger flick?

Super Vegeta.

Since you guys are speaking of Vegetto:

Super Saiyan Vegetto [Boo arc; no time limit] vs Magetta.
Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto [Boo arc; no strain or time limit] vs Super Saiyan God Goku [Super].
Super Saiyan Blue Vegetto [Super; no time limit] vs 50% Beerus [Super; No Haikai].

[nickzambuto]

Who is the strongest character Boo arc Piccolo could defeat with a finger flick?

Define "defeat." Defeat as in kill or just incapacitate? Or just send them flying without knocking them out?

Just incapacitate. But they have to be defeated, if they are capable of getting up and continuing the fight afterwards then it doesn't count.

[dragonball0900]

Who is the strongest character Boo arc Piccolo could defeat with a finger flick?

With a finger flick? If it's with a finger flick then I guess it would be characters like ASSJ Trunks and Vegeta.

If Piccolo needs full power then I think because of his experience I have him beating SSJ Cell Games Future Trunks (although I have Trunks a bit stronger than Piccolo in power). He would also defeat 50% Cell Games Goku. Here are my numbers:

ASSJ Future Trunks - 1,090,000,000
ASSJ Vegeta - 1,125,000,000

Cell Games Piccolo (Weighted) - 945,000,000
Cell Games Piccolo - 1,200,000,000

Buu Saga Piccolo (Weighted) - 1,250,000,000
Buu Saga Piccolo - 1,600,000,000

Cell Games Future Trunks - 1,700,000,000

Cell Games Vegeta - 1,800,000,000

Cell Games Goku 50% - 1,500,000,000
Cell Games Goku - 3,000,000,000

[TheUltimateNinja]

Who is the strongest character Boo arc Piccolo could defeat with a finger flick?

Define "defeat." Defeat as in kill or just incapacitate? Or just send them flying without knocking them out?

Just incapacitate. But they have to be defeated, if they are capable of getting up and continuing the fight afterwards then it doesn't count.

I'd say Android 16. I figure you'd need at least a 3x gap to take someone out with a finger flick.

[nickzambuto]

Damn, you guys are going really high with Piccolo. I was on the fence about whether or not he could even take down Freeza. We're talking about a FLICK here people! What is your reasoning for Piccolo being able to flick second grade Super Saiyans?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Damn, you guys are going really high with Piccolo. I was on the fence about whether or not he could even take down Freeza. We're talking about a FLICK here people! What is your reasoning for Piccolo being able to flick second grade Super Saiyans?

I don't think he'd be able to finger flick a Grade 2 Saiyan, but I could see him doing it to Android 16.

Piccolo was still standing by the end of the confrontation with the Cell Jrs., so he's probably not that much weaker than them. After 7 years of training I'd imagine he'd have reached the level of a Cell Jr/Cell Games Vegeta or at least gotten very close. That should be enough to onehsot 16.

Kami casually finger flicked Post-God Water Goku despite not even being 2x stronger than him, with a 3x gap a finger flick should be enough to incapacitate.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Super Saiyan Vegetto [Boo arc; no time limit] vs Magetta.
Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto [Boo arc; no strain or time limit] vs Super Saiyan God Goku [Super].
Super Saiyan Blue Vegetto [Super; no time limit] vs 50% Beerus [Super; No Haikai].

Vegetto effortlessly crushes Magetta in a single blow.

SSGod Goku wrecks Vegetto.

Vegetto should be able to win with some difficulty.

[dragonball0900]

Damn, you guys are going really high with Piccolo. I was on the fence about whether or not he could even take down Freeza. We're talking about a FLICK here people! What is your reasoning for Piccolo being able to flick second grade Super Saiyans?

I think I got it wrong, I think maybe instead of a 1.5 of difference, it would be a 2 of difference to flick an opponent. So I guess maybe Semi Perfect Cell would do. I know I previously said we shouldn't overestimate Piccolo, but we shouldn't underestimate him either.

[nickzambuto]

Damn, you guys are going really high with Piccolo. I was on the fence about whether or not he could even take down Freeza. We're talking about a FLICK here people! What is your reasoning for Piccolo being able to flick second grade Super Saiyans?

I don't think he'd be able to finger flick a Grade 2 Saiyan, but I could see him doing it to Android 16.

Piccolo was still standing by the end of the confrontation with the Cell Jrs., so he's probably not that much weaker than them. After 7 years of training I'd imagine he'd have reached the level of a Cell Jr/Cell Games Vegeta or at least gotten very close. That should be enough to onehsot 16.

Kami casually finger flicked Post-God Water Goku despite not even being 2x stronger than him, with a 3x gap a finger flick should be enough to incapacitate.

Power levels mess everything up and make the gains throughout the first half of the story look paultry in comparison to the Z portion. I don't believe Kami was really just two times stronger than Goku. That makes no sense, Goku couldn't perceive Mr. Popo let alone Kami, and finger flicking someone has got to mean you're more than two times their strength.

[nickzambuto]

Invent the minimum powerup necessary for Boo arc Piccolo to defeat Boohan.

Ex. Golden Oozaru Piccolo with Kaioken x20 or some nonsensical thing like that. But the fun is determining the MINIMUM that's necessary, so don't go overboard.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Invent the minimum powerup necessary for Boo arc Piccolo to defeat Boohan.

Ex. Golden Oozaru Piccolo with Kaioken x20 or some nonsensical thing like that. But the fun is determining the MINIMUM that's necessary, so don't go overboard.

SSJ3 Piccolo wins easily.

[dragonball0900]

Invent the minimum powerup necessary for Boo arc Piccolo to defeat Boohan.

Ex. Golden Oozaru Piccolo with Kaioken x20 or some nonsensical thing like that. But the fun is determining the MINIMUM that's necessary, so don't go overboard.

Viewing my numbers, I have Buu arc Piccolo needing a Kaioken X20 Oozaru Piccolo (coincidentally with your example, except with the Golden). They would be nearly equals, but Piccolo would probably have the edge.
It can also be a Kaioken X2 SSJ2 Piccolo.
Kaioken X3 SSJ2 Piccolo would already defeat him easily.