How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

[GTx10]

Goku is a better fighter than Gohan Gohan's heavy hitting would be useless against Kid Boo.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Goku is a better fighter than Gohan Gohan's heavy hitting would be useless against Kid Boo.

Super Buu is much stronger than Kid Buu. Gohan would trash him.

[Draken]

Goku is a better fighter than Gohan Gohan's heavy hitting would be useless against Kid Boo.

Being a better fighter doesn't really cut it when your opponent (Gohan) could one shot you.

[Saiga]

Goku being a better fighter doesn't have much basis anyway.

[rereboy]

Goku being a better fighter doesn't have much basis anyway.

Many more years of experience (decades) and more significant fighting accomplishments. Also he is regarded as a genius of fighting multiples times in the manga while regarding Gohan, only his power is ever commented.

[Saiga]

Goku being a better fighter doesn't have much basis anyway.

Many more years of experience (decades) and more fighting accomplishments.

Roshi's got more experience than Goku and look where that got him.

Accomplishments aren't the best indicator either, as their are many other factors that influence a fight, and most Dragon Ball fights come down to strength.

The genius thing is something I totally forgot about, yeah.

[rereboy]

Goku being a better fighter doesn't have much basis anyway.

Many more years of experience (decades) and more fighting accomplishments.

Roshi's got more experience than Goku and look where that got him.

Experience won't save you agaisnt someone who is that much stronger than you. But I think its safe to say that Goku is a better fighter than Gohan, regardless (I've edited my previous post to include another argument that I forgot to mention).

Anyway, even if you don't agree that Goku is a better fighter, there is certainly basis to sustain that opinion.

[Saiga]

Experience won't save you agaisnt someone who is that much stronger than you. But I think its safe to say that Goku is a better fighter than Gohan, regardless (I've edited my previous post to include another argument that I forgot to mention).

Anyway, even if you don't agree that Goku is a better fighter, there is certainly basis to sustain that opinion.

Even when they were the same strength, Roshi's skill didn't seem to factor into their first battle at all. Nor did it factor against Tenshinhan, where Ten and him were the same strength again.

The only basis is the combat genius part, which I admit I totally forgot about.

[rereboy]

Even when they were the same strength, Roshi's skill didn't seem to factor into their first battle at all. Nor did it factor against Tenshinhan, where Ten and him were the same strength again.

The only basis is the combat genius part, which I admit I totally forgot about.

What about Roshi noticing that their reach wasn't the same, which made him launch an attack that took advantage of that fact and won him the match? It was either Roshi's genius or experience that allowed him to notice that, but I'm more inclined to think it was his experience. Also, the match only lasted that long because Goku's transformed. Otherwise, Roshi would have won with his electric technique (of which I forgot the name), and that technique is also probably born out of Roshi's genius or experience.

So, to me it's clear that Roshi's experience played a part in that fight. Perhaps just what he needed to win.

Against Tenshinhan, both of their experience were probably around the same without significant differences.

[Hitiro]

What about Roshi noticing that their reach wasn't the same, which made him launch an attack that took advantage of that fact and won him the match? It was either Roshi's genius or experience that allowed him to notice that, but I'm more inclined to think it was his experience. Also, the match only lasted that long because Goku's transformed. Otherwise, Roshi would have won with his electric technique (of which I forgot the name), and that technique is also probably born out of Roshi's genius or experience.

So, to me it's clear that Roshi's experience played a part in that fight. Perhaps just what he needed to win.

Against Tenshinhan, both of their experience were probably around the same without significant differences.

The significance of being a better fighter only comes down to people of roughly equal strength though. In other situations being a sloppy fighter but being the much stronger than your opponent is still going to result in your win.

[rereboy]

What about Roshi noticing that their reach wasn't the same, which made him launch an attack that took advantage of that fact and won him the match? It was either Roshi's genius or experience that allowed him to notice that, but I'm more inclined to think it was his experience. Also, the match only lasted that long because Goku's transformed. Otherwise, Roshi would have won with his electric technique (of which I forgot the name), and that technique is also probably born out of Roshi's genius or experience.

So, to me it's clear that Roshi's experience played a part in that fight. Perhaps just what he needed to win.

Against Tenshinhan, both of their experience were probably around the same without significant differences.

The significance of being a better fighter only comes down to people of roughly equal strength though. In other situations being a sloppy fighter but being the much stronger than your opponent is still going to result in your win.

Of course. But what was being discussed was if Goku is a better fighter than Gohan and if there was a basis for it and for the relevance of experience, genius, skill, etc.

Goku being more powerful than Gohan or not was never the issue.

[Pan-Pan]

Not really, only the Genki portion of their ki was drained when they offered their energy. [...]Therefore it is more than likely that the Genki portion of ki is what is taken which would only make up a small percentage of whatever other ki exists.

"The genki portion of their ki" ?? Genki is not a portion of ki, it is ki. The difference is that "ki" can also mean "spirit" whereas genki is just pure energy. But usually, genki = energy = ki = power, all these words refers to the same thing, as you can see in the following quotes :

Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”

Vegeta: “Raise your hands to the sky! We’ll gather your power to defeat Boo! You’ll get very tired, but don’t worry! It will be like after you run as hard as you can! Well, go on! Raise your hands!”

Goku: “Everyone! Give me as much genki as you possibly can! Please!”

Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”

Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”

Elder Kaioshin: “Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that ‘Genki-Dama’ thing st-still doesn’t have enough power…”
Dende: “Th-that can’t be…! We-we already used our ki…”
Enma Daio: “Ha-hang in there, Son Goku…! Th-that Genki-Dama has power from us here in the afterlife in it too…!”

Just because Kibitoshin was not able to teleport anymore doesn't mean all his ki was gone.

That's pretty much what he said :

Kaioshin: “So-sorry…I used up my stamina just now [when he contributed to the Genki-Dama]…Until I recover, I can’t teleport…”

No stamina left = no reserves of energy (ki) --> unable to fight or even teleport = useless

This can be backed up as when only Gohan, the kids and the rest of Goku's friends offered Goku their Genki it didn't amount to much.

Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”

IIRC the size of the genkidama at this point is about 1/4 of its final size. That's a pretty large amount.

Goku even says their energy isn't nearly enough to beat Pure Boo. I find it unlikely that if the Genki Dama took all of Gohan's ki that it wouldn't be enough or close to what they'd need to defeat Pure Boo. Even if you're making out Gohan is weaker than SSJ3 Goku and Pure Boo he wouldn't be that far behind.

The genkidama doesn't have to be as strong as Pure Boo, it has to be much stronger than Pure Boo to annihilate him in one blow. There is no try.

I'm sorry, but if he isn't implying he could win if he was immortal then why would he suggest it? Of course it can be for his own personal gain but if he's going to be defeated then they would just keep him as a prisoner and torture him because he'd never die anyway. I really don't think he was implying they should make him immortal unless he thought he could win.

We can come up with a lot of things. I think being alive is still better than being dead. But we're going round in circles by now.

That isn't evidence at all, Goku wouldn't have thought Vegeta was thinking about bringing the boys back to life to fight if he didn't think they could beat them. No where does Goku say, "Ah, well I guess the Genki Dama is the better option. Its not like the boys could win."

Why not ? Maybe Goku thought Vegeta was thinking the boys could manage something. Nowhere does Goku say "No, the Genki Dama is a worse option. The boys could beat Boo easily."

You're just making this decision purely on the fact that Vegeta said the Earthlings should save themselves for once.

It makes no sense to ignore an easy way to win, only because you think, for no reason, that another one must do the job. Especially when this one has very little chance of winning.

One of the first questions we see when it cuts back to them at the lookout is from Chi Chi asking where Gohan and Goten are. Do you really think they had been there for that long without Chi Chi asking this question? And as for the length of time it took for them to give their hands I doubt Goku would have allowed them to idle about for long considering Fat Boo was going around destroying things.

You're nit-picking. After few minutes, all they remember is " We've resurrected the victims of the Tenkaichi Budokai and OMG the dragon was so huge ! "

Vegeta doesn't specify which Boo he's on about, he could very well be on about Evil Boo. And even if he's not what makes you believe that he isn't on about the scenario of destroying the world? If things play out badly and Gohan or Gotenks are indisposed like they were with Evil Boo then would be left to beat him? This is what Vegeta may be on about. Hence why he says "This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world!" he says "might", meaning this is a possibility; not a certainty. And considering the Fat Boo give birth to Evil Boo and not Kid Boo its more than likely Vegeta is talking about Evil Boo.

Goku didn't say " It's alright ! Gohan can beat him ! ", he said something like " It's alright ! We'll train and fight ! ". Yet in both cases anyone may be indisposed.

The inconsistency would still exist if you put Evil Boo as weaker than SSJ3 Goku. As it would completely destroy any reason to why he'd suggest they definitely can't beat Evil Boo. Whereas when Buff Boo turned into Pure Boo Goku said "We did it! This way we can manage something!"

You're changing the subject. I already explained that Goku had a reason to lie when they were inside Boo's body. And regarding Goku's line "We did it ! This way we can manage something !", considering this line comes right after Vegeta's line (like an answer) judging Pure Boo by his size, I just assume that Goku is also underestimating Pure Boo based on his size. Because, when there is a ki variation, it is always mentioned by at least one character in the story.

And who's to say that absorbing the South Kaioshin worked by adding his power onto Pure Boo's? Perhaps it caused a weird increase.

That's how it worked with the others absorbees and there's no indication that this one was different.

Then I'd like to hear from you as to the reason he absorbed South Kaioshin, if the South Kaioshin didn't represent any sort of trouble then why would Pure Boo be forced to absorb him when he just killed two other Kai's? He may have absorbed the Dai Kaioshin because after absorbing the South Kaioshin he realised he could increase his power further by absorbing him. Which back-fired.

Nothing suggests Pure Boo was forced to absorb South Kaioshin. Maybe the Kaioshin was bothering him with some kind of magical powers, maybe Pure Boo was testing his ability to absorb people (it was the first time he used it), or maybe he absorbed him just to play. We don't know how that happened.

And who's to the South Kaioshin ever tried to pull it out? It never mentions specific people who have tried.

I don't see any reason why he wouldn't have. I remind you that the sword was in their home and the legend described the sword as giving incredible strength. Why would others Kaioshins have tried and not him ? Especially when considering he's the strongest.

[Draken]

Pan Pan genki is NOT all of ki. It's been stated ki is actually composed of three parts, genki (energy), yuki (courage), and shoki (mind).

[Draken]

Pan Pan genki is NOT all of ki. It's been stated ki is actually composed of three parts, genki (energy), yuki (courage), and shoki (mind).

[rereboy]

Not really, only the Genki portion of their ki was drained when they offered their energy. [...]Therefore it is more than likely that the Genki portion of ki is what is taken which would only make up a small percentage of whatever other ki exists.

"The genki portion of their ki" ?? Genki is not a portion of ki, it is ki.

That's not true. As its been mentioned, Genki is only a part of Ki. Read this topic for further details: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 1&p=591441

This post explains it rather well, I think:

Genki is a type of ki, and is sometimes referred to simply as ki. I think it's like saying, "That is a Mercedes," but that doesn't mean it isn't a car. All genki is ki, but not all ki is genki, if you see what I mean.

I'm not sure I'd say that genki makes up the majority of a person's total ki, but it is important. Even if it isn't the majority, using it up still leaves you unable to do much. Even if they were distributed evenly (for example, 33% genki, 33% yuuki, 33% shouki (which is oversimplifying it because these are only three examples of what ki is made up of, not necessarily everything that contributes to ki size)), I think having zero genki would leave you unable to fight. It's kind of like saying...humans need air to live, but they also need nutrients from food; you can't really say that one is more important than the other, and using up one means you can't do anything.

Finally, I don't think any specific part of ki is used for battle. The way Toriyama talked about it, it seemed to me that these things contribute to your total ki size, and your total ki size is then what's important to battle.

[Pan-Pan]

Pan Pan genki is NOT all of ki. It's been stated ki is actually composed of three parts, genki (energy), yuki (courage), and shoki (mind).

Ki is your spiritual force. That's why your mind and your courage can influence your level of power, but only genki is energy.

[SaiyanZ]

IMO, because he wouldn't have been much help. Also Vegeta wanted the humans to take on responsibility for once rather than have them save their world for them

[rereboy]

Pan Pan genki is NOT all of ki. It's been stated ki is actually composed of three parts, genki (energy), yuki (courage), and shoki (mind).

Ki is your spiritual force. That's why your mind and your courage can influence your level of power, but only genki is energy.

Read the topic I posted. Genki is quite literally vitality, while yuuki is bravery, and shouki is being in your right mind. Its as metaphysical as the other two and all three are what Ki is made of. And without any one of them, a person has no usable Ki.

So, quite literally, when a person donates Genki to the Genki Dama, what is being donated is his or hers vitality, which is an essential part of his or hers Ki. But being only part of his or hers Ki, even though the donation can drain a person and make that person unable to fight or do much of anything because the person is left with little vitality and little usable Ki since Ki requires Genki to be formed, the total power of what is donated is inferior to what the person could produce by herself or himself with his or hers total Ki.

[Hitiro]

"The genki portion of their ki" ?? Genki is not a portion of ki, it is ki. The difference is that "ki" can also mean "spirit" whereas genki is just pure energy. But usually, genki = energy = ki = power, all these words refers to the same thing, as you can see in the following quotes :

Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”

Vegeta: “Raise your hands to the sky! We’ll gather your power to defeat Boo! You’ll get very tired, but don’t worry! It will be like after you run as hard as you can! Well, go on! Raise your hands!”

Goku: “Everyone! Give me as much genki as you possibly can! Please!”

Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”

Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”

Elder Kaioshin: “Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that ‘Genki-Dama’ thing st-still doesn’t have enough power…”
Dende: “Th-that can’t be…! We-we already used our ki…”
Enma Daio: “Ha-hang in there, Son Goku…! Th-that Genki-Dama has power from us here in the afterlife in it too…!”

Genki is a subsection of ki, it doesn't make up all the ki an individual has. I'll quote something Herms said because he already explained this stuff.

Toriyama says in the SEG: Story Guide that ki is comprised of various subcomponents like genki ( vitality), yuuki (bravery), shouki (being in your right mind), etc.

Kaioshin: “So-sorry…I used up my stamina just now [when he contributed to the Genki-Dama]…Until I recover, I can’t teleport…”

No stamina left = no reserves of energy (ki) --> unable to fight or even teleport = useless

As I've said. He's just out of the Genki component of ki. That doesn't mean his other components reserves aren't there. He just can't substitute the energy required. It's like a cocktail. mixing in different amounts produces different results. Weighting it the teleportation technique might need 50% Genki, 25% Yuuki, 20% Shouki and 5% other to be used. Mixing the different subcomponents which make up Ki gives off a slightly different effect or technique. So the Kamehameha might be 75% Genki, 10% Yuuki, 2.5% Shouki and 12.5% other.

IIRC the size of the genkidama at this point is about 1/4 of its final size. That's a pretty large amount
The genkidama doesn't have to be as strong as Pure Boo, it has to be much stronger than Pure Boo to annihilate him in one blow. There is no try.

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”

Yes, a 1/4 its final size. There is no way Gohan wouldn't make that at least 3/4 of its final size if he contributed all of his ki.

Why not ? Maybe Goku thought Vegeta was thinking the boys could manage something. Nowhere does Goku say "No, the Genki Dama is a worse option. The boys could beat Boo easily."

But Goku does make out the Genki Dama to be a worse option.

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4
Context: after Vegeta tells Goku to make a Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”

It makes no sense to ignore an easy way to win, only because you think, for no reason, that another one must do the job. Especially when this one has very little chance of winning.

Of course it makes no sense to ignore an easy win. But then the easy win wouldn't make for a very good read, now would it? Goku and Vegeta could have had an easy win with the Potara, they didn't take that choice. They literally make it their goal to make it harder for themselves.

You're nit-picking. After few minutes, all they remember is " We've resurrected the victims of the Tenkaichi Budokai and OMG the dragon was so huge ! "

Only Videl and Kuririn's kid would be like that. The others have seen the dragon enough times to not be like "the dragon was so huge!". They would be pretty stupid if they forget the wish they just made after a few minutes. I'm sorry but you're just trying to make up excuses for an obvious plot hole in the story.

Goku didn't say " It's alright ! Gohan can beat him ! ", he said something like " It's alright ! We'll train and fight ! ". Yet in both cases anyone may be indisposed.

Yes, but if Goku, Vegeta, Gohan and Gotenks were strong enough to fight Super Boo then that increases the odds of it not being the end of the world. So if in future Gohan and Gotenks are gone, yet again. There would still be Goku and Vegeta to take care of Super Boo.

You're changing the subject. I already explained that Goku had a reason to lie when they were inside Boo's body. And regarding Goku's line "We did it ! This way we can manage something !", considering this line comes right after Vegeta's line (like an answer) judging Pure Boo by his size, I just assume that Goku is also underestimating Pure Boo based on his size. Because, when there is a ki variation, it is always mentioned by at least one character in the story.

What reason did Goku have to lie in Boo's body? Gohan and the kids were incapacitated. And Goku was saying they should either try and weaken him further or fuse. He had no back up plan to lie. When he lied about not being able to beat Fat Boo there were still the kids who were learning the fusion. So even if Goku lied there then there was something to fall back on. Inside Boo there was nothing to fall back on. Vegeta out-right refused to do the fusion dance and the only other two people capable of defeating Boo were unconscious. As for you're quote about Goku underestimating him due to his size that's silly, Goku previously noted his ki rise when he turned into Buff Boo. Why would he all of a sudden stop noticing Boo's ki and just comment on his size. Goku knows well enough not to underestimate an enemy due to his size. Gohan was one of the most powerful warriors in existence when he was a child. So to say Goku just switched off his "ki sensing" ability, as if he even could, and underestimate him due to his size is just a silly way to look at it. Vegeta was mocking his size, of course, but there is nothing to suggest Goku would pull a stupid and not take into consideration Boo's ki.

That's how it worked with the others absorbees and there's no indication that this one was different.

No, that's what you're assuming happened. There is no indication that the absorbees power was added on to his as well as there is no indication that the absorbee power wasn't added on to his. It could easily be multiplications or derivatives of the individuals power.

Nothing suggests Pure Boo was forced to absorb South Kaioshin. Maybe the Kaioshin was bothering him with some kind of magical powers, maybe Pure Boo was testing his ability to absorb people (it was the first time he used it), or maybe he absorbed him just to play. We don't know how that happened.

It is more likely he was forced to absorb him. If the Kaioshin posed no threat he would have killed him like the other two. The fact that Pure Boo absorbed the strongest is enough of a reason to believe the South Kaioshin's strength was the real deal.

I don't see any reason why he wouldn't have. I remind you that the sword was in their home and the legend described the sword as giving incredible strength. Why would others Kaioshins have tried and not him ? Especially when considering he's the strongest.

But there is nothing to suggest he did try either. We can only make assumptions.

[RandomGuy96]

I really hate when people bring up the Z-sword. It's made very apparent in the series that what you can lift =/= power level. That's why Trunks is stronger than 18 yet struggles to lift 100 times his own body weight, when Goku could do it in the Namek saga with a power level of 90,000. That's why Goku's weighted clothing weighed 100 kilograms, yet he was seen lifting far more than that with ease as a child. That's why base Buu saga Goku struggled to lift 40 tons yet Freeza was able to effortlessly lift mountains and part oceans with his mind.

Me, I like to assume that the sword was enchanted against the Kaioshin, because of all the hints that the Southern Supreme Kai is really powerful.