Kid Goku GT vs. SSGSS Goku?

[Darkprince410]

I already explained the relevance and as for which Buu Goku is referring to when he says Ma-jin Buu is in the final chapter of the manga. And this is Kid Buu. As for Vegeta - he never even saw Evil Buu to begin with (as he was busy being dead) - only fat Buu, Buuhan and kid Buu. So he could have referred to the final product that such a Mr Buu spiting could possibly produce you know Evil Buu, who eats Mr Buu becoming Super Buu and then sneakily absorbing someone like Gohan and becoming the Buuhan they faced. Also at the start of Super the narrator said after 6 months since the defeat of Ma-jin Buu showing extracts from the spirit bomb so he was referring to kid Buu. Everything points towards "Majin Buu"=Kid Buu.

Ummm, Vegeta did see the Pure Evil Buu, as he was the one that explained to Goku how Mr. Buu came to be inside the other Buu. It was Goku that was oblivious to what precisely happened, while Vegeta was aware of everything that happened after his death.

And no, you're still not explaining the relevance. The final chapter of the manga has no bearing on the events of Super, only what happened before the time skip, and given Vegeta's fears about Mr. Buu spitting out another "terrible Buu", that points to the Pure Evil Buu.

Because he was feeling guilty of Vegeta blowing himself up and dying for thinking they were equal. As a result Goku was addressing him as an equal lowballing his SSJ3 strength and keep promoting collaboration. And Vegeta clearly realised that Goku all along was lowballing himself in order to spare his feelings. Read the following manga pages:

None of that makes sense at all. The moment that Vegeta established that he knew Goku had Super Saiya-jin 3, any reason Goku would have had to not use the form was gone. He may have been guilty immediately after finding out that Vegeta knew, but after that, there's no reason to hold back to spare Vegeta's feelings. In fact, to do so would have been even more insulting.

Also note at the end of the page 12 referring to kid Buu Vegeta says "Buu is stronger than I imagined". First why would he be surprised if he was only as strong as base Super Buu? And then says: "That goes for you too" (talking to Goku). This means that Goku demonstrated a power level far beyond himself claimed to have had while inside Super Buu.

Given that he had initially thought that he could take him on as Super Saiya-jin 2, Vegeta's statement regarding Pure Buu being stronger than he imagined simply means that Pure Buu was stronger than what he had previously anticipated, that's it. Likewise, Vegeta had no frame of reference for how powerful Ssj3 Goku would be until he saw Goku fight, so that's the only reason he said that Goku was stronger than he imagined too. Neither of those lines though remotely indicate that Pure Buu was stronger than Evil Buu though.

No, I am not ignoring it. I am just interpreting correctly. The general "in the universe" statement doesn't make Gohan and Gotenks candidates. Vegeta just says it in the same manner Goku says it he is training for the possible but unknown stronger to him guy that may exist/created/appear in the universe. It can be from the Freeza's clan, an Android from evil scientists, etc, etc. Your Genki Dama argument is irrelevant as Vegeta considered Goku #1 due to his performance against kid Buu. Also full power SSJ3 Goku could have arguably beaten kid Buu - it was the form's draining disadvantage and the original dragging of the fight that made Goku losing the advantage. http://www.mangahit.com/dragon-ball/511/13

Except unlike Goku's statement, Vegeta's statement indicates that others stronger than him exist as a matter of fact, not just a "potential" statement.

Vegeta: “Kakarot…The one I’ve acknowledged as the strongest Saiyan…But Kakarot, I have no intention of being content with staying Number Two forever! Someday I will surpass you! No, I’ll surpass every living being in this universe…and become the supreme Number One!”

Him saying that he will surpass every living being in the universe to become the supreme #1 doesn't make sense if Goku's the true strongest. Everything about it indicates that he readily knows there's at least someone stronger, and we know he doesn't remember Beerus.

As for the Genki Dama argument, it's not irrelevant. Vegeta specifically indicates that Goku is #1 after having defeated Buu.

Vegeta: “After defeating Majin Boo, there should be no doubts that he’s Number One…But he stills keeps on training anyway…And so…I…can’t…stay here…and fall…even further…”

Additionally, we've already seen Vegeta call Goku #1 once before, and in that context he talked about Goku's drive as a fighter and what makes him the best fighter. So calling him #1 there could just as easily be referring to saying that, because Goku managed to beat what was, overall, the strongest enemy they ever faced (Buu in general, not a specific form), he should now be considered the best fighter.

You are far stretching the playing of words there and you know it. I can also argue that Beerus can sense power levels and didn't feel that Gohan was worthy of not taking him out in one shot.

No, I'm not stretching the words around at all. Beerus specifically said that Vegeta was more fun than Goku was. That's it. Given that Gohan was taken out in a single blow, that wouldn't be entertaining for him.

Beerus: "It's been a long time since I've used 10% or so of my full strength. Well, this was more fun than with that Saiyan over at North Kaio's place."

We always see him powering up a white aura. Elder Kaioshin told him that he can go mystic by trying going SSJ.

Powering up doesn't equal transforming though, and Rou Kaioushin specifically said that transforming was "no good". He triggered the full release of the power-up by simply going about the same gist as going Super Saiya-jin, but it would make no sense for Rou Kaioushin to give Gohan the power-up, only to turn around and say that transformations are "no good", if what he gave Gohan was also a transformation like Super Saiya-jin.

In addition, given that we see Gohan has a changed appearance after the power-up is triggered, even when he's "at rest" (notice how Toriyama intentionally draws his eyes differently after), that suggests that Rou Kaioushin's power up wasn't simply something Gohan transformed into and out of at will, but was instead a permanent change to his form.

[Speedster]

Ummm, Vegeta did see the Pure Evil Buu, as he was the one that explained to Goku how Mr. Buu came to be inside the other Buu. It was Goku that was oblivious to what precisely happened, while Vegeta was aware of everything that happened after his death. And no, you're still not explaining the relevance. The final chapter of the manga has no bearing on the events of Super, only what happened before the time skip, and given Vegeta's fears about Mr. Buu spitting out another "terrible Buu", that points to the Pure Evil Buu.

1. a. You made a comment about the relevance of my original point 1 in my original post. My original point 1 was that Goku at the beginning of Super was certainly not 20x stronger than he was in the Buu arc so since I would (in subsequent points) have demonstrated that Mystic Gohan in BoGs was weaker than SSJ3 Goku in BoGs you couldn't make a comeback saying that Gohan<Goku because Goku has gotten 20x stronger in the meantime. You know in GT Goku’s base increased by 400 so some might have suggested that 1-5 years later it was plausible Goku to go x20. But as I explained since Majin Buu is a reference point it strongly suggests that Goku’s strength did not increase by such a huge factor (x20) as a x20 increase would put Goku in an entirely different league.

1.b. You however after not seeing the above point you responded by disputing a detail starting an irrelevant discussion about which Buu, Goku was referring to --- as if it mattered in that original point. But anyway let’s settle this detail about the “Majin Buu". The relevance of the final chapter of the manga as well as the last episodes of Z/Kai that preceded the airing of Super is that they demonstrate clearly that Goku (not Vegeta or anyone else) whenever he talked about “Majin Buu” he meant kid Buu- the one he fought and defeated with help and would have loved to face again to “settle the score”. He never even get to meet Evil Buu so I can't even see how someone can think that Goku is referring to a hypothetical potential spit of Evil Buu from Mr Buu instead of the actual pure Majiin Buu - kid Buu.

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The moment that Vegeta established that he knew Goku had Super Saiya-jin 3, any reason Goku would have had to not use the form was gone. He may have been guilty immediately after finding out that Vegeta knew, but after that, there's no reason to hold back to spare Vegeta's feelings. In fact, to do so would have been even more insulting.

2. There is really no argument against SSJ3 Goku>Super Buu in the anime given Goku’s fight against Buutenks. I provided you a logical explanation regarding the dialogue but you don't want to accept it. Clearly you haven't bothered to click on the manga pages I linked as you would have read the answer of your own last sentence.

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Given that he had initially thought that he could take him on as Super Saiya-jin 2, Vegeta's statement regarding Pure Buu being stronger than he imagined simply means that Pure Buu was stronger than what he had previously anticipated, that's it. Likewise, Vegeta had no frame of reference for how powerful Ssj3 Goku would be until he saw Goku fight, so that's the only reason he said that Goku was stronger than he imagined too. Neither of those lines though remotely indicate that Pure Buu was stronger than Evil Buu though.

3. Vegeta said it in a tone of amazement though. He was amazed by the power of Buu and not in relative terms. And him thinking he could take him on as SSJ2 is irrelevant as SSJ2 Vegeta was going to go up against Buuhan (and in the anime he actually even did).

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Except unlike Goku's statement, Vegeta's statement indicates that others stronger than him exist as a matter of fact, not just a "potential" statement.

Vegeta: “Kakarot…The one I’ve acknowledged as the strongest Saiyan…But Kakarot, I have no intention of being content with staying Number Two forever! Someday I will surpass you! No, I’ll surpass every living being in this universe…and become the supreme Number One!”

As for the Genki Dama argument, it's not irrelevant. Vegeta specifically indicates that Goku is #1 after having defeated Buu.

Vegeta: “After defeating Majin Boo, there should be no doubts that he’s Number One…But he stills keeps on training anyway…And so…I…can’t…stay here…and fall…even further…”

Him saying that he will surpass every living being in the universe to become the supreme #1 doesn't make sense if Goku's the true strongest. Everything about it indicates that he readily knows there's at least someone stronger, and we know he doesn't remember Beerus.

4.a. I suggest you reading your own quote. Vegeta said that Goku is the undisputed number one AND HE KEEPS TRAINING *ANYWAY*. This plus the tone he said it clearly suggests that Goku keeps training without even having someone inspiring him to surpass him. If Gohan was stronger than Goku then Goku would have a tangible motivation - to get stronger than Gohan. But apparently Gohan was not stronger and Goku’s inspiration was his own motivation to keep improving even when he is already the number 1. Also when Vegeta said so in episode 2 we cut to scenes from Beerus fighting an alien for a dinosaur. I can say that whole statement was also foreshowing that indeed there exist more powerful than Goku exist in the universe (Beerus and Whis).

Additionally, we've already seen Vegeta call Goku #1 once before, and in that context he talked about Goku's drive as a fighter and what makes him the best fighter. So calling him #1 there could just as easily be referring to saying that, because Goku managed to beat what was, overall, the strongest enemy they ever faced (Buu in general, not a specific form), he should now be considered the best fighter.

4.b. When he said that he was clearly saying it literarily and it is actually another point in favour of SSJ3 Goku>Mystic Gohan (or are you going to tell me now that Vegeta was dead when Gohan fought Super Buu?). Goku was taking on the strongest base form of Buu and at the time Vegeta said it he believed that full power SSJ3 Goku would/could win - he even later made himself a punching bag for a minute to give Goku the time to power up.

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You are far stretching the playing of words there and you know it. I can also argue that Beerus can sense power levels and didn't feel that Gohan was worthy of not taking him out in one shot.

No, I'm not stretching the words around at all. Beerus specifically said that Vegeta was more fun than Goku was. That's it. Given that Gohan was taken out in a single blow, that wouldn't be entertaining for him.

Beerus: "It's been a long time since I've used 10% or so of my full strength. Well, this was more fun than with that Saiyan over at North Kaio's place."

5. Although you are fully entitled to play with the words' and interpret Beerus words in your own far-fetched way I would like to point out that for Beerus the degree of “entertainment” increases with his opponent power level and hence challenge.
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Powering up doesn't equal transforming though, and Rou Kaioushin specifically said that transforming was "no good". He triggered the full release of the power-up by simply going about the same gist as going Super Saiya-jin, but it would make no sense for Rou Kaioushin to give Gohan the power-up, only to turn around and say that transformations are "no good", if what he gave Gohan was also a transformation like Super Saiya-jin.In addition, given that we see Gohan has a changed appearance after the power-up is triggered, even when he's "at rest" (notice how Toriyama intentionally draws his eyes differently after), that suggests that Rou Kaioushin's power up wasn't simply something Gohan transformed into and out of at will, but was instead a permanent change to his form.

6.Yes, transformations are not good as there is an energy wasted during the transformation itself. But powering up from 1% to 100% is not a transformation. It is what final form Freeza and Beerus do. As I said Gohan has a mystic “rest” base like Goku’s new Godly base. That is why he looks slightly different. That Mystic “rest” base is like 4.5x the power of his normal base (normal base being what his base would be without everything unlocked by Elder Kaioshin). Gohan missed his mystic base so by doing the “SS thing” as suggested by Elder Kaioshin instead of powering up his mystic form from 1% to 100% he transforms into a regular SSJ2.