Are There Any Updates On The Harmony Gold Dub Of Dragon Ball?

[Planetnamek]

Yeah i've read your Carl Macek post

Also I only used the one emoji the one time in relation to one small paragraph. But if this site had a facepalm emoji, I don't think anyone could possibly fault me for making use of it here in this case.

Whoops my bad! Forgive me for my mistake, it's very late and I was not thinking straight.

You may have used only the one emoji, but using it like over a dozen times kinda seems like overkill no? I used to do that myself on another forum and I got called out for overusing emojis, so i'm just repeating to you the same advice someone gave me.

[eledoremassis02]

While I do think that Dragon Ball could have been dubbed by a much more competent company, in the long run, we still got the uncut Japanese run and while I don't care for FUNi's casting choices, I simply just don't watch it.

Even if it got picked up by another company, I do think it would of sound a place on Television with a lot less censorship. Sci-Fi's anime block would have been perfect. A show about a boy who turns into a giant ape and uses martial arts to fight aliens.

I think the other problem was the history of the dub itself. Even from Harmony Gold it was obviously was aimed at that demographic that was obscure of Japan and little things were edited and major things were changed and FUNimation continued that. Was there pressure of guidance from TOEI to market it for Children, as it was very obviously a children's show in Japan (albeit like Batman TAS a show that Children and Adults can enjoy)? Certainly, the toy rights were in mind as toys came out pretty quick under FUNimation but with modern-day Toei seemingly pre-censoring the visual aspects of Kai and the movies (but leaving Roshi as is).

Also, if Big Green and Mayalsia are legit licensed dubs the I think TOEI really doesn't (or didnt) care about the quality of the product and in that regard we got lucky we didn't get a Big Green dub (tho Season 3 could definitely feel that way sometimes)

The one thing I will say is that while I do wish we got a decent dub from the getgo (Id kill for Pioneers movie dub quality) I do (because of the mess that was dubbing this show) have the opportunity to watch this show in different forums with different feels and with the discovering of more HG episodes, I look forward to watching them and thinking about what-ifs, but also comparing them to the TWO other dubs of the show that were made for the same market (and the HG dub holds up quite well for me )

Edit: This isnt aimed towards anyone, I just thought of it lol

"you can wish in one hand, and put orange bricks in the other and see which one fills up first"

[10gigtriforce]

I think the other problem was the history of the dub itself. Even from Harmony Gold it was obviously was aimed at that demographic that was obscure of Japan and little things were edited and major things were changed and FUNimation continued that. Was there pressure of guidance from TOEI to market it for Children, as it was very obviously a children's show in Japan (albeit like Batman TAS a show that Children and Adults can enjoy)? Certainly, the toy rights were in mind as toys came out pretty quick under FUNimation but with modern-day Toei seemingly pre-censoring the visual aspects of Kai and the movies (but leaving Roshi as is).

Also, if Big Green and Mayalsia are legit licensed dubs the I think TOEI really doesn't (or didnt) care about the quality of the product and in that regard we got lucky we didn't get a Big Green dub (tho Season 3 could definitely feel that way sometimes)

I have to wonder much of this is toei's fault. Westwood/blue water dubs from canada and europe were also cut/censored, the mexican dub was some too, I've heard stuff about french and other European ones but seeing as I only understand english and some spanish i cant speak for those.

Not to say how funi did it was A-ok(though like you said we did get uncut english and japanese eventually) but i do wonder how much influence toei had since a looot of the western dubs were cut. This *is* the same company that forced onepiec on 4kids, even knowing their reputation, and gave the stamp of approval to their butchering. And also let viz make an uncut sailor moon dub that turned out even worse than the cut up dic dub from the 90's with their horrid voice casting

[Danfun64]

Also, if Big Green and Mayalsia are legit licensed dubs the I think TOEI really doesn't (or didnt) care about the quality of the product and in that regard we got lucky we didn't get a Big Green dub (tho Season 3 could definitely feel that way sometimes)

Big Green is definitely a legit licensed dub. The Speedy dub is a lot more ambitious, but Ihe old Serbian dub (which has voice acting almost as bad as Speedy's) is officially licensed,.

[Robo4900]

I have to wonder much of this is toei's fault. Westwood/blue water dubs from canada and europe were also cut/censored, the mexican dub was some too, I've heard stuff about french and other European ones but seeing as I only understand english and some spanish i cant speak for those.

Not to say how funi did it was A-ok(though like you said we did get uncut english and japanese eventually) but i do wonder how much influence toei had since a looot of the western dubs were cut. This *is* the same company that forced onepiec on 4kids, even knowing their reputation, and gave the stamp of approval to their butchering. And also let viz make an uncut sailor moon dub that turned out even worse than the cut up dic dub from the 90's with their horrid voice casting

The Westwood/Blue Water dubs were cut/censored because they were TV-only dubs.

Though, it is worth noting that the Blue Water GT dub was mostly uncut. Aside from about four episodes (basically they cut any shots of Goku's penis), all the actual episode contents were completely uncut.
And since Blue Water DB was done after this, and we know they used the French masters, and we know the French masters were heavily pre-censored, it's easy to lay most of the blame for that censorship at AB Groupe's feet for providing masters that were already censored.
Westwood Z, I don't know. I think there was an expectation for them to cut back a lot of violent content or something, I'm not sure.

But for certain, this wasn't something Toei mandated. Toei just do not care.

While I do think that Dragon Ball could have been dubbed by a much more competent company, in the long run, we still got the uncut Japanese run and while I don't care for FUNi's casting choices, I simply just don't watch it.

A. Yes, we did get the Japanese uncut run, EVENTUALLY. Funimation picked up the Dragon Ball license in about 1994. The first time we got any Japanese subbed media was the first three Z movies that Pioneer put out on their sub-license in 1998. The next year, Funi put out their first uncut DVD, Ginyu Assault, which was the first time a TV episode had been out subbed... But that first episode was episode #68 of DBZ. Episode #221 of the overall run.
Again, EVENTUALLY, we got the first uncut DB singles too... Starting from episode 14... Starting release in 2003.
We didn't get the first few 68 Z episodes in uncut/Japanese until the Ultimate Uncut singles in 2005... Which stopped 27 episodes in, in favour of the UNBELIEVABLY SHIT Orange Brick DVDs in 2007, alongside the pretty shit Blue Bricks of DB, which finally released the first 13 episodes for those of us who aren't Australian.
So, the first time you could actually watch through Dragon Ball in Japanese was THIRTEEN YEARS after Funi acquired the license, twelve years after DB first hit TV, eleven after Z first hit TV, eight after it had hit Toonami, and a full four years after DB and Z had finished their run on TV.

So yes, EVENTUALLY, we did FINALLY get the uncut, Japanese version... But if you wanted to watch Dragon Ball in full in 2005/2006, you were shit out of luck if you didn't like Funimation's butchered presentation; the first 67... Sorry, 53 were dub-only, cut, and censored, ditto for the first 13 of DB unless you were willing to pay to import from Australia. The rest, yes, you could watch in Japanese...
If you had the money and shelf-space it took to buy each of the eleven Dragon Ball volumes (including the first from Australia), and each of the EIGHTY-SIX DBZ volumes (eighty-seven, if you bought the wrong version of Prelude To Terror)...
And finally, in 2007, you could complete that inconvenient, overpriced, cumbersome, awkward collection by adding the DVD seasons... But you have to double-dip on some episodes... And they're cropped... And the remastering is shitty...

B. Dragon Ball's initial, most pushed, most prominent presentation in the west has always been Funimation's shitty, butchery of the original. The fact that you could seek out expensive, shitty DVDs that would allow you to dig into the settings and watch the Japanese version doesn't change this. The Japanese viewing option was, at best, a nominal olive branch for the hardcore fans who already were watching fansubs anyway, and were big enough fans that they would be willing to buy a hundred overpriced, shitty DVDs.
The first time the subbed version was available to the fans at large was the Orange Bricks, and I don't need to go over the numerous reasons why that release was a fucking travesty, or any of the reasons why most people ended up ignoring the Japanese version and just watching what they thought was the version they remembered from TV.

C. A dub should be, at least, a pretty decent viewing option for people who don't/can't watch something subtitled. It should not be a vastly different presentation of the show.
You don't expect the "Easy mode" of a video game to be an entirely different experience, you expect it to be the same thing as everyone else is getting, just in a more easily-digestible format for the casual fan. "You can just play in hardcore mode" doesn't solve the problem that the two modes are vastly different, because a lot of people either can't or won't do that, they'll take the version they experience for what it is, and then move on to something else. By changing the experience for the more common, more easily-digestible version into something entirely different than the original, you're essentially robbing most people of the original experience, and creating a rift between fans of the one version, and fans of the other, and in the process, completely destroying the integrity of the version most people will experience.

Funimation's presentation of Dragon Ball in the west has been a shitshow from start to finish, and any attempts to justify them to the tune of "you can watch the subbed version if you want" is really no excuse; the subbed version only became fully available a decade and a half after they got the license, and only to the most hardcore fans until the super-shitty DVDs came out, the dub version has always -- and will always -- be the most pushed, prominent presentation, so the only time the subbed version has ended up being anything more than "the other version that some hardcore fans enjoy where goku sounds like a woman" was when Super was sub-only on Crunchyroll for a while, and ultimately, any idea that it's OK for the dub and the sub to be so different, for any reason, with any justification, is utter nonsense.
Yes, we all enjoy Ghost Stories. Let's all ignore that example, though, because Dragon Ball is not Ghost Stories. Dragon Ball is a landmark pop culture icon all over the world, and it simply deserved -- and deserves -- far more respect than Funi's ever given it with their shitshow they call brand management.

Even if it got picked up by another company, I do think it would of sound a place on Television with a lot less censorship. Sci-Fi's anime block would have been perfect. A show about a boy who turns into a giant ape and uses martial arts to fight aliens.

Sure. Could've been handled like the Pioneer movies, which are praised as the best dubbing Dragon Ball's ever got (and rightly so), but the only changes made for TV were the muting of a couple of lines that referenced hell, cutting out the shot where you actually see Gohan peeing on Kuririn, and I think one or two particularly violent shots. That, and the completely unnecessary replacement of the OP/ED, of course.

I think the other problem was the history of the dub itself. Even from Harmony Gold it was obviously was aimed at that demographic that was obscure of Japan and little things were edited and major things were changed and FUNimation continued that. Was there pressure of guidance from TOEI to market it for Children, as it was very obviously a children's show in Japan (albeit like Batman TAS a show that Children and Adults can enjoy)? Certainly, the toy rights were in mind as toys came out pretty quick under FUNimation but with modern-day Toei seemingly pre-censoring the visual aspects of Kai and the movies (but leaving Roshi as is).

I don't think this was pressure from Toei. It's just that Dragon Ball, being aimed at 8-year-old boys, is something that the relevant companies decided would be best presented as a saturday morning American kids' show. So, the two companies to give Toei the best offers primarily geared it like that.

Also, if Big Green and Mayalsia are legit licensed dubs the I think TOEI really doesn't (or didnt) care about the quality of the product and in that regard we got lucky we didn't get a Big Green dub (tho Season 3 could definitely feel that way sometimes)

Big Green is legit, licensed work, Speedy isn't.
And... Back in the '90s/'00s? Toei DEFINITELY didn't care. As long as the foreign licensors were earning Toei some money, they were happy. Even these days, Toei don't really care that much about what happens outside of Japan.

Edit: This isnt aimed towards anyone, I just thought of it lol

"you can wish in one hand, and put orange bricks in the other and see which one fills up first"

My Orange Brick hand would swiftly throw it into the trash, where it belongs, and my other hand would soon be on my keyboard, as I google a 4:3 version online, with broadcast audio synced up.

[Planetnamek]

I think the other problem was the history of the dub itself. Even from Harmony Gold it was obviously was aimed at that demographic that was obscure of Japan and little things were edited and major things were changed and FUNimation continued that. Was there pressure of guidance from TOEI to market it for Children, as it was very obviously a children's show in Japan (albeit like Batman TAS a show that Children and Adults can enjoy)? Certainly, the toy rights were in mind as toys came out pretty quick under FUNimation but with modern-day Toei seemingly pre-censoring the visual aspects of Kai and the movies (but leaving Roshi as is).

Also, if Big Green and Mayalsia are legit licensed dubs the I think TOEI really doesn't (or didnt) care about the quality of the product and in that regard we got lucky we didn't get a Big Green dub (tho Season 3 could definitely feel that way sometimes)

I have to wonder much of this is toei's fault. Westwood/blue water dubs from canada and europe were also cut/censored, the mexican dub was some too, I've heard stuff about french and other European ones but seeing as I only understand english and some spanish i cant speak for those.

Not to say how funi did it was A-ok(though like you said we did get uncut english and japanese eventually) but i do wonder how much influence toei had since a looot of the western dubs were cut. This *is* the same company that forced onepiec on 4kids, even knowing their reputation, and gave the stamp of approval to their butchering. And also let viz make an uncut sailor moon dub that turned out even worse than the cut up dic dub from the 90's with their horrid voice casting

Toei does have a lot of influence over how dubs of their shows turned out, they were actually the ones that demanded most of the changes that were in the 4Kids dub of One Piece, so yeah I don't think they care nearly as much about quality as they do about money.

[10gigtriforce]

I think the other problem was the history of the dub itself. Even from Harmony Gold it was obviously was aimed at that demographic that was obscure of Japan and little things were edited and major things were changed and FUNimation continued that. Was there pressure of guidance from TOEI to market it for Children, as it was very obviously a children's show in Japan (albeit like Batman TAS a show that Children and Adults can enjoy)? Certainly, the toy rights were in mind as toys came out pretty quick under FUNimation but with modern-day Toei seemingly pre-censoring the visual aspects of Kai and the movies (but leaving Roshi as is).

Also, if Big Green and Mayalsia are legit licensed dubs the I think TOEI really doesn't (or didnt) care about the quality of the product and in that regard we got lucky we didn't get a Big Green dub (tho Season 3 could definitely feel that way sometimes)

I have to wonder much of this is toei's fault. Westwood/blue water dubs from canada and europe were also cut/censored, the mexican dub was some too, I've heard stuff about french and other European ones but seeing as I only understand english and some spanish i cant speak for those.

Not to say how funi did it was A-ok(though like you said we did get uncut english and japanese eventually) but i do wonder how much influence toei had since a looot of the western dubs were cut. This *is* the same company that forced onepiec on 4kids, even knowing their reputation, and gave the stamp of approval to their butchering. And also let viz make an uncut sailor moon dub that turned out even worse than the cut up dic dub from the 90's with their horrid voice casting

Toei does have a lot of influence over how dubs of their shows turned out, they were actually the ones that demanded most of the changes that were in the 4Kids dub of One Piece, so yeah I don't think they care nearly as much about quality as they do about money.

Woah they wanted those changes? Thats very disturbing news to me, I just thought they have 4kids the green light on them not the marching order.

[Adamant]

Granted that's not a totally 1 to 1 perfect example, as there's certainly a bit of a cultural disparity between U.S. and Japanese media: obviously in Japan there's WAY more of a market even among adults for things like gashapon knick knacks and whatnot than there is here in the US. But even that sort of cultural gulf only goes just so far with more art house, adult-focused anime like Robot Carnival or Grave of the Fireflies and the like.

I realize you said adult-focused rather than "adult", but...
Oi, Grave of the Fireflies was very much made with the intent of being watched by children. "Children accompanied by adults" as opposed to "children plopped in front of a TV on their own", but children all the same. It was originally screened as a double feature with Totoro, working off the same logic Don Bluth applied in his cartoons, that children can handle some seriously despressing shit as long as it's followed by something uplifting and happy, as well as assuming that parents would actually discuss the movie with their kids instead of just treating it as a way to keep their kid occupied for a couple hours.

[Robo4900]

Here is a small clip of trying to make the audio a little better
Before
https://youtu.be/hyuflERvaL0

After
https://youtu.be/gJ3EZmDJNR8

If you want honest feedback: I don't think you made the audio better there. Only real difference I hear is it's got a tinny, digitally-processed, frequency-smoothed sound (like what you get when you apply Audacity's kinda-crappy noise-reduction filter). Sorry.

Toei does have a lot of influence over how dubs of their shows turned out, they were actually the ones that demanded most of the changes that were in the 4Kids dub of One Piece, so yeah I don't think they care nearly as much about quality as they do about money.

Source?

I'd always heard Toei's influence was more along the lines of "Luffy has to be played by a woman" and "If you're picking up these shows, you have to pick up One Piece too", and probably also "Get it on TV, primarily aimed at young boys."
The specific ways 4Kids screwed it up, I thought, were entirely down to 4Kids.

[MasenkoHA]

Pretty sure Toei doesn’t demand what kind of edits just certain things that leads to edits.

I seem to remember a statement from Funimation during Z’s Toonami run that the reason Dragon Ball is censored is because Toei requires the show to be on broadcast television and of course because the show had to be on a tv for the 2-11 target demo (to sell toys) it has to be censored to meet broadcast standards.


Of course this doesn’t mean “replace the music” “censor the uncut releases” “rewrite the scripts to add a bunch of dumb unfunny jokes”

The Pioneer versions and subsequent airing on Toonami of Dead Zone and World’s Strongest is what should have happened. Faithful scripts with a (mostly) well done cast and Japanese music intact uncut for home video and then “edited” to meet tv censors.

[10gigtriforce]

I'd always heard Toei's influence was more along the lines of "Luffy has to be played by a woman"

so the worst one of them all came right from them, gg toei. American woman cant do grown men voices nearly as well as japanese women, and even then the only one I like is Nozawa.

[Planetnamek]

Here is a small clip of trying to make the audio a little better
Before
https://youtu.be/hyuflERvaL0

After
https://youtu.be/gJ3EZmDJNR8

If you want honest feedback: I don't think you made the audio better there. Only real difference I hear is it's got a tinny, digitally-processed, frequency-smoothed sound (like what you get when you apply Audacity's kinda-crappy noise-reduction filter). Sorry.

Toei does have a lot of influence over how dubs of their shows turned out, they were actually the ones that demanded most of the changes that were in the 4Kids dub of One Piece, so yeah I don't think they care nearly as much about quality as they do about money.

Source?

I'd always heard Toei's influence was more along the lines of "Luffy has to be played by a woman" and "If you're picking up these shows, you have to pick up One Piece too", and probably also "Get it on TV, primarily aimed at young boys."
The specific ways 4Kids screwed it up, I thought, were entirely down to 4Kids.

It was also down to public TV broadcast censors(for example, they REALLY don't like depiction of alcohol of any kind in content aimed at minors because groups like MADD(Mothers Against Drunk Driving) would be all over them otherwise, so that's why it was changed to Luffy drinking juice) and Toei approved every single edit 4Kids had to make because they were just that desperate to get OP on TV in the U.S. and have it be just as big as DBZ was, this thread goes into more detail:https://animesuperhero.com/forums/threa ... s.5285251/

The ironic part was 4Kids was initially trying to be more faithful to the original anime(Even to the point of recording an English version of "We Are" that they showed off at conventions) and after the first few episodes Toei demanded they start making more changes(If I had to guess why, it's because they saw how succesful DBZ was here with all the changes it had, and Toei assumed that if OP also had a bunch of changes made then it would be big as well).

I'd always heard Toei's influence was more along the lines of "Luffy has to be played by a woman"

so the worst one of them all came right from them, gg toei. American woman cant do grown men voices nearly as well as japanese women, and even then the only one I like is Nozawa.

I think American women are good at voicing young boys(I.E. Nancy Cartwright and Pamela Hayden in the Simpsons and Tara Strong in Fairly Oddparents) but not so much young men, also guys cannot voice women and girls period(that's one of the reasons why i've never been able to get into Bob's Burgers as Tina is voiced by a dude for some inexplicable reason and it totally takes me out of the show when they expect me to take her seriously as a character, because with that awful voice i just can't).

[eledoremassis02]

Here is a small clip of trying to make the audio a little better
Before
https://youtu.be/hyuflERvaL0

After
https://youtu.be/gJ3EZmDJNR8

If you want honest feedback: I don't think you made the audio better there. Only real difference I hear is it's got a tinny, digitally-processed, frequency-smoothed sound (like what you get when you apply Audacity's kinda-crappy noise-reduction filter). Sorry.

Toei does have a lot of influence over how dubs of their shows turned out, they were actually the ones that demanded most of the changes that were in the 4Kids dub of One Piece, so yeah I don't think they care nearly as much about quality as they do about money.

Source?

I'd always heard Toei's influence was more along the lines of "Luffy has to be played by a woman" and "If you're picking up these shows, you have to pick up One Piece too", and probably also "Get it on TV, primarily aimed at young boys."
The specific ways 4Kids screwed it up, I thought, were entirely down to 4Kids.

No hurt feelings, I thought that too, I just count tell if it was the filter or the audio under the hiss

[Valerius Dover]

Guys, I don't think anyone really wants this thread to be yet another dub war, but Harmony Gold has barely even been mentioned the past page or two. This is just embarrassing.

So, I am to understand that two of the remaining four episodes are confirmed to be a part of this other tape? It says Special 124, so does that mean it's Episodes 2 and 4?

[Planetnamek]

Guys, I don't think anyone really wants this thread to be yet another dub war, but Harmony Gold has barely even been mentioned the past page or two. This is just embarrassing.

So, I am to understand that two of the remaining four episodes are confirmed to be a part of this other tape? It says Special 124, so does that mean it's Episodes 2 and 4?

Good point, we really should get back on topic, the last HG thread got derailed multiple times as well.

At any rate I certainly hope the remaining four episodes are part of this tape.

[Robo4900]

Guys, I don't think anyone really wants this thread to be yet another dub war, but Harmony Gold has barely even been mentioned the past page or two. This is just embarrassing.

We're discussing different dubs, and rare recordings; the two things guaranteed to raise conflict in the Dragon Ball fandom. Derailments are to be expected.

Though in fairness, these derailments have been very interesting imo...
And I kinda want to know if Kunzait has any thoughts on the "Son Goku = master of understanding nothingness = Zero" thought process?

So, I am to understand that two of the remaining four episodes are confirmed to be a part of this other tape? It says Special 124, so does that mean it's Episodes 2 and 4?

Do note: We actually don't know how many episodes are remaining. We can be fairly certain there were at least five episodes recorded, but we actually don't know if either they recorded more, or if not all five were even broadcast. We just can't tell.

Hard to say what those tapes contain. Labelling can be confusing.

And note that there are three tapes in that shot, labelled "Dragonball English Special" with a 124 drawn under the "Scotch 124" logo, "Dragonball 1 (English); Hokuto No Ken 2, 3, 4 (sub)", and "DragonBall English eps"

"Dragonball English Special" is almost certainly yet another recording of the movie double-feature (which, given the poor quality of the other captures, would be great to have), "Dragonball 1 (English)" is, again, likely another recording of episode 1 (again, the rip we have is poor quality, it would be great to have a second)

Then we have two cases.
Best case: "DragonBall English eps" is either all five(?), or just the four(?) remaining Harmony Gold episodes.
Worst case: "DragonBall English eps" contains episode 1 and maybe one or two other episodes.

[10gigtriforce]

So, I am to understand that two of the remaining four episodes are confirmed to be a part of this other tape? It says Special 124, so does that mean it's Episodes 2 and 4?

its what our hope is from my understanding. IF so hopefully those, and that youtuber who got his hands on the funi dub with HG names are both uploaded soon.

[KBABZ]

So! I decided I'd try and "Dragon Box-ize" the Harmony Gold audio, although it make take a bit as I'd need to recreate stuff like the fonts and the new eyecatches and stuff. In the meantime though, I made an accurate change log for Episode 1! The timecodes listed are for the most recent upload of the HG dub video linked to 10,000 pages earlier in this thread.

---

- 4:37: The scene where Zero fishes with his tail in the nude has been cut. After he pops his head out of the water, Zero says "Well now to find a fish!" before cutting to him dragging the fish along the ground. 41 seconds removed.

- 5:26: The moment where Lena shoots Zero with her pistol like a US police officer has been cut. After raising his Power Pole in the air with both hands, we cut to Goku about to attack with the red streaky background behind him. 31 seconds removed.

- 5:29: The shot of Lena holding her hands up has been shortened to remove her dropping her pistol, so that it isn't visible to the audience. 2 seconds removed.

- 7:52: The moment where Zero lifts up Lena's skirt to reveal her panties has been removed. To help with this transition, Zero says "But some boys do have tails, don't they?". 8 seconds removed.

- 14:02: The moment where Lena tries to have Zero touch her butt in exchange for the Four-Star Ball has been cut. After the sly-looking shot of Lena, we cut to Lena saying "I got an idea!". 15 seconds removed.

[MasenkoHA]

- 5:26: The moment where Lena shoots Zero with her pistol like a US police officer has been cut.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LJcUaKajkK8

[KBABZ]

Hey guys, I'd like your help! I'm working on a little thing, and I need to identify the font used in the title card. Anyone have any ideas??