MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/25!)

[Grimlock]

everything else diverges off that into their own different continuities.

And this is the part where canon concerns about. What diverges off of the "original material", not the original material itself.

But sure, if you want to say that there's a canon and that the original manga is canonical, be my guest. But it has as much substance as saying that the fire is hot and that the water is wet. Anyway, I guess this is off-topic.

[Scsigs]

everything else diverges off that into their own different continuities.

And this is the part where canon concerns about. What diverges off of the "original material", not the original material itself.

But sure, if you want to say that there's a canon and that the original manga is canonical, be my guest. But it has as much substance as saying that the fire is hot and that the water is wet. Anyway, I guess this is off-topic.

I mean, most everything that's come after the original manga & Z has heavily diverted from the ending of Z to fit somewhere in the timeline present in both & even the animes are their own separate continuities because of how much they diverged from the manga.

GT can't take place in the manga's continuity because it not only has callbacks to anime-only materials, but also some of the Z movies (which in of themselves exist in separate timelines that don't match up with the shows or manga).

Super diverges in the fact that it's not compatible with Goku not having seen Bulma in 5 years before the ending of the manga & that there's been no threats to Earth in the last 10 years (there have been 4 in the last 4 movies alone). It's also not compatible with GT because GT works off the ending of the manga & Z & takes place (depending on who you ask) 5-10 years after that ending, as well as introducing new characters & transformations who don't show up in GT's timeframe. I'd also say that the version of Bardock they introduced in Jaco & put into Super: Broly is incompatible with the one in the manga because that was clearly meant to be the one from the TV special & Future Trunks & older main timeline Trunks have blue hair for no reason (I know the actual reason, but it's really stupid that they let it influence them like it did). Although, it IS supposed to be a sequel to the manga rather than the Z anime, the Res F arc bringing Ginyu back for a stupid body swap joke aside.

Daima is more plausible to take place in the manga's continuity, but is incompatible with Super & GT because not only are Supreme Kai & Kibito defused a while before they were in Super (which they never were in GT), but also introduces the Demon Realm & all those characters, as well as has Goku unlock SS4 & Vegeta SS3, as well as the wish to turn all of the ensemble cast into kids way before Pilaf did to Goku because it was essentially a reboot of many of the ideas of GT.

As I said, most of the Z movies are wholly incompatible with the manga's timeline while the others are just lucky they could find a spot in the timeline that worked & didn't introduce anything that disrupts anything down the line like most of Z's filler did.

Toriyama's involvement in the last 4 movies & 2 shows, though, lends Super an air of credibility to be the true continuation of the original manga. Daima comes off as an elseworlds tale, especially since I don't think they'll make a sequel to it to explain away the discontinuities with Super since it's not compatible with Super's timeline.

I made this argument in another thread a few months ago that the manga's the source of all the stories & characters & everything else springboards off of it. Think about it. Even when they get a few points off the mark, they always default back to the manga's version of events. This is the most logical way to look at these things. It's like when people say Doctor Who has no canon. Yes it does. Doctor Who's TV show is the canon & everything else is just spun off from it. None of the external media matters unless the show says so, hence why the majority of Paul McGann's Big Finish stuff counts, as the Night of the Doctor mini-sode canonized them with him referencing several of his companions. Everything else, nope, considering Doctor Who has adapted or disregarded external media stories in the past to tell either new versions of or just new stories altogether.

[Gaffer Tape]

Wasting an Adaptation - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Battle of Gods Arc (Manga)

Dragon Ball Dissection begins its look proper at Dragon Ball Super. The first piece of media to officially come out of the pipeline was the manga retelling of Battle of Gods. It's a lean, streamlined version meant to promote the animated series, but is it so streamlined it no longer functions? Or does it manage to carve out a life of its own?

[The Dark Knight]

If you're going to adapt a story, either do it right or don't do it at all. Would an extra chapter or two been too much to ask for in order to properly tell the story ? As for Resurrection F, Toyotaro already told a good portion of that story before the movie came out, so why not add an additional two chapters and complete the story ?

[taikufuru]

Another thing: people seem to automatically associate Akira Toriyama's contribution on the final product to attest to it as a "canonical" continuation of the original manga, which makes no sense at all. One of the main reasons is that these same fans don't treat Neko Majin as a continuation of Dragon Ball, even though Toriyama himself wrote and illustrated it alone. Is it because it's comical and "nonsense"? Well, Dragon Ball has comical and "nonsense" elements. Furthermore, Toriyama wrote the 14th and 15th movies of Dragon Ball Z, but they are not part of the same continuity as Dragon Ball Super.

The thing with Neko Majin is that Vegeta is working for Freeza. Vegeta shouldn't be working for Freeza (and he's wearing his armor, even though he should be wearing earthling clothes). But if we remove that detail, then there's nothing preventing Neko Majin from occurring in the same continuity of the manga. It still would or wouldn't be canonical, because there is no canon to begin with, but that's irrelevant.



I myself kind of turn a blind eye to this, so I don't leave Neko Majin out, but that's my preference. Also, there's Dragon Ball Online to consider.

That was exactly my point. Toriyama's contribution, in itself, doesn't mean anything, especially since he was less involved than in Neko Majin in relation to recent Dragon Ball stories. It's just a point because some fans tend to overlook inconsistencies with the original manga, Dragon Ball Super storyline having three or four different continuities, but all of that is overlooked for the sake of the series' convenience, which likes to be the legitimate continuation of the original work. Anything that doesn't fundamentally involve the original manga falls into subjective territory when it comes to canon. Is it Dragon Ball GT? Is it Dragon Ball Super? Dragon Ball Daima? Neko Majin? Dragon Ball Online? Who cares.

[Scsigs]

Yeah, this is why I didn't care for the Battle of Gods arc in the manga at all. I think it easily could've used an extra chapter to pace out things properly. Also still think they could've just included the promo manga Toyotaro did & let him finish it, then released it as an extra long special chapter or something.

That was exactly my point. Toriyama's contribution, in itself, doesn't mean anything, especially since he was less involved than in Neko Majin in relation to recent Dragon Ball stories. It's just a point because some fans tend to overlook inconsistencies with the original manga, Dragon Ball Super storyline having three or four different continuities, but all of that is overlooked for the sake of the series' convenience, which likes to be the legitimate continuation of the original work. Anything that doesn't fundamentally involve the original manga falls into subjective territory when it comes to canon. Is it Dragon Ball GT? Is it Dragon Ball Super? Dragon Ball Daima? Neko Majin? Dragon Ball Online? Who cares.

Toriyama directly wrote & drew Neko Majin, yes. However, he directly wrote Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, Super: Broly, & Super Hero. He wrote the plot outlines for the main story arcs of Super & directly wrote Daima. He also provided character designs, characters, characterizations, jokes, & other things to Super. While he wasn't directly drawing the manga chapters or writing the scripts, he was directly involved in Super's production to varying degrees over time depending on the project.

GT wasn't meant to be really a continuation of the manga. The way it treated continuity (which was wonky at best), it makes much more sense as a continuation of the first 2 animes, though with bits of the movies sprinkled in, since it treated anime-only filler as having happened.

Dragon Ball Online is a possible future, but it's like Xenoverse where it's on the outskirts of canon & is its own thing entirely, also like Heroes.

Super has a lot of the Toriyama charm & his direct involvement, so it's what a lot of people wanted in a continuation of the original story.

Daima, unfortunately, can't exist in the same timeline as Super. It's it's own thing entirely & I'm willing to bet that if they do another film in the future or TV series, they're gonna go back to Super's timeline.

I mean, fans are gonna talk about & dissect these things. Whether you wanna engage in the conversation or not or if you think it's worth having, that's your mentality.

[taikufuru]

It gives me the impression that you don't understand what I mean. I know that Dragon Ball GT isn't a continuation of the manga. I'm aware of every contribution Toriyama made to modern Dragon Ball. My point is that all of this has become so confusing, accompanied by fan subjectivity. Even if Toriyama said, "Hey, Dragon Ball Super is the canonical sequel to the original manga!", we'd have to ask ourselves... which Dragon Ball Super? The continuity of the 2013 and 2015 Z-films? The continuity of Toyotarō's manga, which is rushed and not self-sufficient and depends on you having seen the films (which don't share the same continuity)? Or perhaps the continuity of the TV series? Who knows? Who cares?

Anyway, getting to the subject of the most recent video...

If they knew they wouldn't have time to properly tell the story of Battle of Gods and that they would have to skip over Resurrection 'F', perhaps the best solution was to use those chapters as an introduction to Champa and Vados, while the events of the two previous films occur in the background, something similar to what we see in The Lion King 1½. I don't like cross-media. For me, these things should be independent, like the Dragon Ball TV series were in relation to the original manga. But within what they could do, I think it was the best solution.

[WittyUsername]

Dragon Ball fans need to stop getting worked up over “canon” and simply judge stories on their own merits. I’m pretty sure this whole notion that a Dragon Ball story is only “canon” if it has Toriyama’s direct involvement originally began as a way of discrediting GT’s existence. People hated GT and needed a rationalization for why it doesn’t count, so they went with “Toriyama didn’t write it, therefore it never happened!”

For my two cents, I view the original manga as the primary thing, while everything else, including Super and Daima, are branching paths that you can take or leave based on personal preference.

[Grimlock]

Dragon Ball Online is a possible future, but it's like Xenoverse where it's on the outskirts of canon & is its own thing entirely, also like Heroes.

No, Dragon Ball Online is not like Dragon Ball Xenoverse and Dragon Ball Heroes, and it is not "its own thing entirely", whatever that means. I highly suggest some well thorough research before making such a claim.

[The Dark Knight]

I’m pretty sure this whole notion that a Dragon Ball story is only “canon” if it has Toriyama’s direct involvement originally began as a way of discrediting GT’s existence.

This is exactly it, as the vast majority of fans who talk about Super being "the one true canon" just so happen to not like GT. I don't exactly love GT, but let's not pretend that Super doesn't have just as many issues as GT does. They may be different issues, but they ruin the experience all the same.

[Scsigs]

Dragon Ball Online is a possible future, but it's like Xenoverse where it's on the outskirts of canon & is its own thing entirely, also like Heroes.

No, Dragon Ball Online is not like Dragon Ball Xenoverse and Dragon Ball Heroes, and it is not "its own thing entirely", whatever that means. I highly suggest some well thorough research before making such a claim.

I know Online had Toriyama's involvement, but it was also a Korean-only MMO that died a few years after it came out & everything in it is in a theoretical Dragon Ball future that, outside of the video games, will more than likely not be referenced by any of the non-video game materials. Case in point, Xenoverse & Heroes brought Mira, Towa, & Fu into their folds, but it's unlikely they'd ever show up in a movie or TV series. Not that I don't think they can't adapt or take influence from the stuff Toriyama contributed to Online, it's just that I don't expect them to.

Also, Xenoverse is literally the successor to Online where they remixed elements from Online into a new game after Online ended. It honestly baffles me that you wouldn't consider them their own things entirely when that's what they were meant to be regardless of Toriyama's involvement compared with Super & the last 4 movies, which were intended as official continuations of the manga for better or worse.

[Grimlock]

I know Online had Toriyama's involvement, but it was also a Korean-only MMO that died a few years after it came out & everything in it is in a theoretical Dragon Ball future that, outside of the video games, will more than likely not be referenced by any of the non-video game materials. Case in point, Xenoverse & Heroes brought Mira, Towa, & Fu into their folds, but it's unlikely they'd ever show up in a movie or TV series. Not that I don't think they can't adapt or take influence from the stuff Toriyama contributed to Online, it's just that I don't expect them to.

Everything in it doesn't need to be "referenced by any of the non-video game materials". Mira, Towa and Fu don't necessarily need to appear in a movie or a TV series, where they come from is more than enough. A continuity can be made up of different media (off the top of my head, see: Final Fantasy 7 [games )---> CGI film] and Transformers [cartoon )---> comics]. In the latter's case I'm referencing the Japanese side of the franchise). But you will be happy to know that Dragon Ball Online's Yadorats make an appearance in Dragon Ball Super, in the Moro saga, so yeah, the game has been referenced already. Again, not that that was necessary.

Also, Xenoverse is literally the successor to Online where they remixed elements from Online into a new game after Online ended. It honestly baffles me that you wouldn't consider them their own things entirely when that's what they were meant to be regardless of Toriyama's involvement compared with Super & the last 4 movies, which were intended as official continuations of the manga for better or worse.

Dimps developed Dragon Ball Xenoverse using content from Dragon Ball Online, but there's no direct connection between those games. They simply borrowed stuff from it. If you saw anything more than that, you've been misinformed. At most, it could be considered a "spiritual successor".

We don't know the full extent of Toriyama's involvement with neither Dragon Ball Super, the movies nor Dragon Ball Online. We do know he worked in the game for five years, that's about as long as he took to make Neko Majin. Furthermore, Dragon Ball Online is intended as an official continuation of the manga, as its story ignores everything but the manga. And there's Toriyama himself saying that the game is a sequel to his manga. For all intents and purposes, and as much as you want to see it, Dragon Ball Online is not just another game, much less is lumped together with Xenoverse and Heroes.

[Scsigs]

Everything in it doesn't need to be "referenced by any of the non-video game materials". Mira, Towa and Fu don't necessarily need to appear in a movie or a TV series, where they come from is more than enough. A continuity can be made up of different media (off the top of my head, see: Final Fantasy 7 [games )---> CGI film] and Transformers [cartoon )---> comics]. In the latter's case I'm referencing the Japanese side of the franchise). But you will be happy to know that Dragon Ball Online's Yadorats make an appearance in Dragon Ball Super, in the Moro saga, so yeah, the game has been referenced already. Again, not that that was necessary.

Yes, I agree. They don't need to be in the movies or TV shows. They're video game characters & server their functions well for that medium. That wasn't my point, though.

I also agree that multiple mediums can be used to tell a story. Final Fantasy VII is a great example since, yeah, we have the original game, the Advent Children movie, & now the Remake trilogy. Hell, 1 of my favorite childhood shows, Danny Phantom, has been continued in graphic novel form & I'm ok with that as long as that's the intention of the people behind them. However, this can also be a very 2-edged sword. Final Fantasy also has the complete trainwreck that was the Final Fantasy XV multimedia project. So, to break it down as simply as I can, there was the XV demo which had some story stuff not included in the final game for some reason (that you can't play anymore because they delisted it years ago), the Kingsglaive movie serving as an interquel showing the fall of the city Noctis' family ruled over & its fall (that they had to patch in part of the climax as a cutscene when it takes place in the game's timeline), the Brotherhood anime mini-series (thankfully on YouTube) serving as a prequel telling people how Noctis & crew became friends rather than it being in the game, the main game (that got continually updated to have new cutscenes & other things because they were just...missing), all of the DLCs for it that serve as further interquels & a prequel showing what 3 of the characters were doing at points in the story & explaining the main villain's backstory, & a novel adapting what they planned for 3 more DLCs before production on them was cancelled because the game wasn't pulling in enough money to justify paying to produce them. It's similar to how Lance has described every product the Super era of DB has produced being incomplete on their own since each has parts that the others don't. Many people complained about how the main FFXV game was incomplete because there's shit missing from the game's story that should've been there from Day 1 even today. There are pros & cons with these things.

I already knew that the game's version of Yardrats appeared in Super & they're established as being another race of them from the ones that appeared in Z & also Super.

Dimps developed Dragon Ball Xenoverse using content from Dragon Ball Online, but there's no direct connection between those games. They simply borrowed stuff from it. If you saw anything more than that, you've been misinformed. At most, it could be considered a "spiritual successor".

We don't know the full extent of Toriyama's involvement with neither Dragon Ball Super, the movies nor Dragon Ball Online. We do know he worked in the game for five years, that's about as long as he took to make Neko Majin. Furthermore, Dragon Ball Online is intended as an official continuation of the manga, as its story ignores everything but the manga. And there's Toriyama himself saying that the game is a sequel to his manga. For all intents and purposes, and as much as you want to see it, Dragon Ball Online is not just another game, much less is lumped together with Xenoverse and Heroes.

Like I said, Xenoverse is the successor to Online. Remixing elements & even introducing ones meant for Online that weren't included (like Fu). It'd seem to me that Xenoverse is a sort of sequel to Online.

Um...we actually do know the extents of his involvement with the movies & Super. I don't know what you're smoking, bro.
The movies, he directly wrote the story for Battle of Gods (with the screenplay being written by Yusuke Wantanabe) & the screenplays for the next 3 movies & came up with new characters &/or new character designs. He generally left the action up to the Toei staff, though.
Super, he wrote the story arc outlines (including plot points, jokes, storylines, & other things. However, he mostly left up how to connect plot points to each other to the Toei staff & Toyotaro, hence why both the anime & manga have a lot of differences when it comes to these things & why the anime has Goku written like he's too dumb to live), created new characters, character designs, & other things. This is in stark contrast to how involved he was with GT, which was having input on the name of the show & some early plot stuff, contributing character designs, & I think that's about it.
Daima, he wrote the story & contributed characters & designs to it.
Oh, & he also wrote the Jaco manga.

Dragon Ball Online also existed before the last 4 movies, Super, & Daima. A point where Toriyama was more apathetic to Dragon Ball. At the same time Online was in development, Toei & Bandai wanted to do a new Dragon Ball anime series because the merchandising revenue for the franchise was starting to slow down since everything that could be was dubbed & distributed to everywhere else in the world & the games were just the games. Hell, he was only inspired to return to the franchise as he was because Evolution sucked so much ass & he wanted to show them how it's done out of spite, which is equally as awesome as it is hilarious.
We know he contributed ideas & lore to Online &, yeah, I can see him saying it was intended as a sequel to the manga. That makes sense. And since it takes place hundreds of years after the manga ended, yeah, it can be taken that way. However, I view it as 1 of many continuations of the manga that could take place in the timeline. Since Online, we've gotten Super (which was also a continuation of the manga) & Daima (which is also a continuation of the manga, but clearly takes place in a different timeline than Super). Has Online influenced the last decade & change of anime or manga stuff besides an establishment of alternate Yardrats or maybe some references? Not really. However, Xenoverse & Heroes have taken that shit & ran with it. Thus, I place it with those because not only is Online a video game that still influences that space of the franchise, but we'll never know if Toei or Toyotaro will ever use that lore in their products. Can the stuff in Online be cool & worthy additions to the franchise? Sure, but I view it as one possible thing out of the...3 or 4 that we've gotten so far? And it's not the current focus of the franchise & probably won't be when they eventually get back to regular entries into it. This doesn't mean that Online isn't worth talking about or taking note of. However, due to it being on the outskirts of canon because of the whole "cancelled MMO only available in Korea, Hong Kong, & Taiwan" thing & being in of itself a wholly separate product from the newer movies, shows, & mangas, I don't take stock in it at the moment & focus on the more important things to talk about. This is the same with the majority of the fandom even here on the most popular DB forum on the internet.

[Gaffer Tape]

A Load-Bearing Mistake - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Battle of Gods Arc Part 1 (Anime)

Dragon Ball Dissection begins its look at the animated version of Dragon Ball Super. It's the Star Wars Radio Drama of Dragon Ball. Trust me. That makes sense. It expands the movie Battle of Gods story with cute new character interactions and context. But when it starts leaving out important plot details, can it still stand on its own?

It's Pilaf. They ruin Pilaf, which has ripples throughout the rest of the series, and it drives me crazy. I hope you enjoy it!

[taikufuru]

It's curious that 10 years later I realized there isn't a previous panel explaining how Goten is falling off the cliff in the manga. It was the TV series footage filling in the gaps in my mind!

Also, I'm sad that the cool Soup D'Saian Gahd detail isn't in the TV series. It's quite likely that Toyotarō found a quick solution to condense everything that the TV series took two episodes to do. Good idea!

[Scsigs]

When I started watching Super back in 2017 with the English dub airing on Toonami, I really didn't care for how the show stretched out the movie's plot & story for this arc. Outside of the first 2 episode & maybe the last one that take place before & after the movie's plot, I really don't care for the episodes in the middle. Maybe I need to rewatch them as I haven't seen them since, but I found the pacing bad. The movie didn't have enough material to fill out a 13-episode arc, imo.

[The Dark Knight]

When I started watching Super back in 2017 with the English dub airing on Toonami, I really didn't care for how the show stretched out the movie's plot & story for this arc. Outside of the first 2 episode & maybe the last one that take place before & after the movie's plot, I really don't care for the episodes in the middle. Maybe I need to rewatch them as I haven't seen them since, but I found the pacing bad. The movie didn't have enough material to fill out a 13-episode arc, imo.

I think the primary mistake they made was keeping the movie's story as is and just stretching it out, rather than re-writing everything from the ground up to fit that 14 episode format. Goku Vs. Beerus in the show is 5 episodes long, which is basically as long as the entire movie; that's insane. Why not dedicate an episode or two to Champa and Universe 6 for example ? Why not an episode focused on Freeza's force to better set up Resurrection F ? Maybe ask Toriyama about Beerus' backstory and have that be an episode. Training episodes are pretty well liked, so why not one or two focused exclusively on Goku and Vegeta figuring out how to break through their (at the time) current limits ?

[Scsigs]

I think the primary mistake they made was keeping the movie's story as is and just stretching it out, rather than re-writing everything from the ground up to fit that 14 episode format. Goku Vs. Beerus in the show is 5 episodes long, which is basically as long as the entire movie; that's insane. Why not dedicate an episode or two to Champa and Universe 6 for example ? Why not an episode focused on Freeza's force to better set up Resurrection F ? Maybe ask Toriyama about Beerus' backstory and have that be an episode. Training episodes are pretty well liked, so why not one or two focused exclusively on Goku and Vegeta figuring out how to break through their (at the time) current limits ?

Well, 2 of those they didn't think of until the start of the next arc/movie remake (which they also didn't even bother to rewrite to actually be good). The others, they clearly didn't think about. Plus, I imagine that Toriyama didn't think of the Universe 6 Tournament until a good way into the anime & manga being in production, which also explains why Toyotaro didn't mention Champa & Vados until chapter 4 of the manga, especially since he decided to skip Res F & jump straight to it. The fact that Toei rushed the anime into production & only gave the animation team 4-5 weeks to finish episodes initially, I don't think they really had much time to do much foreshadowing to arcs that wouldn't happen for half a year compared to Toyotaro who would've had more time to think about things while drawing & writing chapters as the manga was coming out a chapter a month as opposed to an episode every week. Had Toei let the anime staff & even Toriyama have more time to properly plan things out early on, I think they could've done some interesting stuff with it.

[VegettoEX]

Well, 2 of those they didn't think of until the start of the next arc/movie remake (which they also didn't even bother to rewrite to actually be good). The others, they clearly didn't think about. Plus, I imagine that Toriyama didn't think of the Universe 6 Tournament until a good way into the anime & manga being in production, which also explains why Toyotaro didn't mention Champa & Vados until chapter 4 of the manga, especially since he decided to skip Res F & jump straight to it.

Champa and Vados have big splashes in the "Super Start Guide" that came out ahead of the TV series-

https://imgur.com/a/super-start-guide-c ... mo-rnzHv5w

... and in the same book, we get a comment from Toriyama about how he's, "...written a strange new story where they finally depart from this universe. They’re fighting against their neighbors, Universe 6!"

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -toriyama/

This arc and these characters was always the plan (with what little planning there was).

[Scsigs]

Well, 2 of those they didn't think of until the start of the next arc/movie remake (which they also didn't even bother to rewrite to actually be good). The others, they clearly didn't think about. Plus, I imagine that Toriyama didn't think of the Universe 6 Tournament until a good way into the anime & manga being in production, which also explains why Toyotaro didn't mention Champa & Vados until chapter 4 of the manga, especially since he decided to skip Res F & jump straight to it.

Champa and Vados have big splashes in the "Super Start Guide" that came out ahead of the TV series-

https://imgur.com/a/super-start-guide-c ... mo-rnzHv5w

... and in the same book, we get a comment from Toriyama about how he's, "...written a strange new story where they finally depart from this universe. They’re fighting against their neighbors, Universe 6!"

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -toriyama/

This arc and these characters was always the plan (with what little planning there was).

Hmm...well, there goes that theory. I guess it's just a result of the rushed early production of Super & the writers or producers not thinking to establish them before they appear then. Good on Toyotaro.