The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[DanielSSJ]

Maybe you guys should agree to disagree. That or move the Chappa debate to PMs, because this has taken up several pages with no real progress.

[dragon boss z]

Vegeta did way better than the kids against her. I don't know what you are talking about. Vegeta got multiple hits in and even scratched her. The kids didn't land one blow the entire fight.

I just have to intervene here. The reason why the kids didn't land any blow on her is because they were in base the whole time. And they were using that costume, and were only able to use ki blasts when they decided to transform into SSJ. Also, judging by the reactions of Android 18 during both situtations, Android 18 seemed more amazed and scared about Goten and Trunks than how she was against Vegeta.
And as I said before, the kids have more feats that suggest that they are way stronger than Android 18.

I know. He said their base is above android saga ssj Vegeta.

[dragon boss z]

Maybe you guys should agree to disagree. That or move the Chappa debate to PMs, because this has taken up several pages with no real progress.

True

If you have a comic vine account or make one we could have what's called a CAV where we debate and other users vote who won the debate.

[Pantalones]

When Gero saw Yamcha's power he thought it was Goku, so him being around saiyan saga Goku in power would be reasonable. Yamcha's power level is probably less than 30,000 imo.

This seems like completely backwards logic to me.

Dr. Gero mistaking Yamcha for Goku means that Yamcha can't have only been as weak as Saiyan Saga Goku at this point -- Gero has been tracking Goku long enough to know that his power has been increasing, sometimes a whole lot in a short period of time, so he's not going to assume that 3-4 years later Goku would be at the same level he was last recorded at before leaving for Namek. If anything, he's going to be expecting a much stronger Goku than that, since the last time Goku left the planet for a while he came back many times stronger than he'd been before.

The only safe assumption to make about Yamcha's power in the Android Saga is that he's significantly above Saiyan Saga Goku (so not just 30,000ish like Goku could pull off with Kaio-ken back then) but probably not as strong as base Goku was during the Mecha-Freeza/Trunks arrival, since we know Gero wasn't actively watching at that point (only the gathering-cells-for-Cell bug robots were around) due to not knowing about Super Saiyan and so he probably wouldn't estimate Goku being that high up there.

[DBZAOTA482]

When he says a tremendous amount of force, he might just mean that it takes a tremendous amount of force to replicate that feat. It doesn't necessarily mean it was a tremendous amount of Goku's force. For example 1% of a punch from Beerus would still be a tremendous amount of force, but not compared to his full power. Even if it was Goku using a lot of his power to do it, a direct punch will always be stronger than the shockwave from the punch. That's just basic physics.

Roshi's description of Goku putting a stupendous amount of force into his punch is a common thing throughout Dragon Ball that characters to describe something they find extremely impressive (which is the definition of "stupendous or "tremendous") and this also ignores the fact Roshi couldn't even see the shockwave. If Roshi was speaking on how strong Goku is in general he'd do just that.

The punch very well could've been far stronger than his ordinary punches at that state (which is very obvious).

Vegeta did way better than the kids against her. I don't know what you are talking about. Vegeta got multiple hits in and even scratched her. The kids didn't land one blow the entire fight.

Again, Trunks only struggled because of the costume (and Goten was deadweight). Not to mention #18 wasn't even the fight with Vegeta seriously and Vegeta couldn't do any lasting damage to #18 while every attack she landed damaged him greatly. #18 put more effort into beating the kids as she even used ki blasts against them.

It's not like he said Roshi was barely stronger than Tsuru. Just from exchanging a couple blows he was certain he was stronger. This imo puts Roshi quite a bit over Tsuru. The were also weaker than Tsuru imo, but that doesn't mean they were weaker by a lot.

It does... considering Tien wasn't convinced of Goku and Chun's superiority over Tsuru despite them already clearly being stronger than Krillin and Yamcha.

If anything that works in my favor.

No it doesn't... Tsuru's statement is just there to reinforce how great Goku is in general. You're making too much of it.

Well Chiatzu had to take to the sky quickly because he was being overwhelmed, and then later was saved from being knocked out with is flight. He definitely isn't outclassed by Krillin, but there is a noticeable gap in their physical power.

That's exactly what I mean in that Chiaotzu sucks at fighting. He didn't get overwhelmed necessarily because Krillin was stronger but because he doesn't much aptitude for physical combat which was made clear throughout the fight.

Did you really ask for me to prove throwing and riding a stone pillar 2,300 km and then back in under 30 minutes is more impressive than making it look like you have 8 arms? Tao is also strong enough to cut trees in half with one sword wing. Even Blue has better feats than Chappa and Tao killed him with his tongue.

Seeing as both Krillin and Yamcha (who at this point have far surpassed Tao) made a big deal about Goku blocking Chappa's technique... there's more it than just an illusion. Maybe I should have been more specific.

50% was a lot for that point in the series. King Piccolo acted like he got a huge boost when he got young, but guides say he only went from 220 to 260, which is about a 15-20% increase.

I don't really use the guidebooks especially OG Dragon Ball and Daimao being 260 is bull because that puts him higher than Tien at BoZ when Tien was outright stated and shown to have surpassed Daimao during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

He was just saying it was going to be hard for a first fight. And it's a good way to show how storng Goku's got since the last tournament. Goku had trouble with Nam and Giran last tournament. Chappa won the tournament without being touched so he was most likely above them. And Goku easily beat him.

Jackie Chun simply said Goku was going to have a difficulty from the jump. He didn't say anything in relative terms to the average preliminary trash.

[/quote]

He never said Pamput was weak. Krillin said he must of been weak because Goku won so easily, and Goku just said he must of been having a bad day. Then Roshi said no, it's because they have gone beyond human levels, and that guy was really good for a human.

Goku pretty much did. Pamput's punches couldn't make him flinch and like you said, he thought Pamput was sick.

Roshi even heard of him and Pamput was called a genius of martial arts. For him to be that famous he has to at least be around other master level humans in martial arts. But like I said, I do think Chappa is above him.

But Jackie Chun still thought lowly of him though... sure he said he was an extremely powerful and skilled fighter... but only from an ordinary perspective. The others didn't gave a shit about him.

Yes, I agree that's why he was there. Easily beating someone who is a previous champion of that tournament while not even going close to all out is a good way to show he got stronger. That doesn't automatically mean the guy has to be above Tao. Tao actually landed hits on a Goku who wasn't holding back. If he fought a 22nd Goku who wasn't holding back he would get stomped horribly, but he wouldn't get stomped like Chappa did if it was against a holding back Goku.

Tao would get stomped horribly by Match Level Goku either way.

While I agree Yamcha isn't as bad as people say, I don't think he has ever been the most reliable person. In an interview Toriyama said Bulma broke up with him because he was a cheater or something, lmao.

Don't remind me...

[dragon boss z]

When Gero saw Yamcha's power he thought it was Goku, so him being around saiyan saga Goku in power would be reasonable. Yamcha's power level is probably less than 30,000 imo.

This seems like completely backwards logic to me.

Dr. Gero mistaking Yamcha for Goku means that Yamcha can't have only been as weak as Saiyan Saga Goku at this point -- Gero has been tracking Goku long enough to know that his power has been increasing, sometimes a whole lot in a short period of time, so he's not going to assume that 3-4 years later Goku would be at the same level he was last recorded at before leaving for Namek. If anything, he's going to be expecting a much stronger Goku than that, since the last time Goku left the planet for a while he came back many times stronger than he'd been before.

The only safe assumption to make about Yamcha's power in the Android Saga is that he's significantly above Saiyan Saga Goku (so not just 30,000ish like Goku could pull off with Kaio-ken back then) but probably not as strong as base Goku was during the Mecha-Freeza/Trunks arrival, since we know Gero wasn't actively watching at that point (only the gathering-cells-for-Cell bug robots were around) due to not knowing about Super Saiyan and so he probably wouldn't estimate Goku being that high up there.

Gero said he knew Goku might of got a lot stronger, but he probably thought Goku was also getting close to his max power. Base Goku was only 8,000 in the android saga, and Goku is always suppressed when not fighting. Yamcha being around the 20,000-30,000 range would make sense for Gero to think it's Goku.

[dragon boss z]

Again, Trunks only struggled because of the costume (and Goten was deadweight). Not to mention #18 wasn't even the fight with Vegeta seriously and Vegeta couldn't do any lasting damage to #18 while every attack she landed damaged him greatly. #18 put more effort into beating the kids as she even used ki blasts against them.

You can't just say that without the costume they would of did better than ssj Vegeta. And I don't see how 18 using a tiny ki blast proves anything.

It's not like he said Roshi was barely stronger than Tsuru. Just from exchanging a couple blows he was certain he was stronger. This imo puts Roshi quite a bit over Tsuru. The were also weaker than Tsuru imo, but that doesn't mean they were weaker by a lot.

It does... considering Tien wasn't convinced of Goku and Chun's superiority over Tsuru despite them already clearly being stronger than Krillin and Yamcha.

He never said they were weaker than Tsuru. Roshi was just the first person solidly above him.

Seeing as both Krillin and Yamcha (who at this point have far surpassed Tao) made a big deal about Goku blocking Chappa's technique... there's more it than just an illusion. Maybe I should have been more specific.

The wolfman must not of thought blowing up the moon was that impressive because he thought he could beat Roshi. Dragon ball never made much sense.

If you want to finish our debate on Tao vs Chappa, i'll do a CAV with you on comic vine.

[Gog]

Super Saiyan 4 Goku (GT) V Super Saiyan Vegetto

[TheUltimateNinja]

Super Saiyan 4 Goku (GT) V Super Saiyan Vegetto

SSJ Vegetto takes this, Ultra Full Power Saiyan 4 Goku may be able to manage something.

[nickzambuto]

Super Saiyan 4 Goku (GT) V Super Saiyan Vegetto

We have conflicting evidence on this. Goku claims that Baby's ki is the most "awesome" he has ever felt. But that anime comic thing stated that Vegetto's power might even be as strong as Super Saiyan 4. On one hand, the official dialogue should probably take precedence over some obscure comic, but then again, "awesome" doesn't necessarily mean strongest, now does it? So which do we trust?

My rationalization has always been this. IIRC, the comic never said that Super Saiyan 1 Vegetto is as strong as Super Saiyan 4. Instead it stated something to the effect of, Vegetto might be. We know that Vegetto can go at least Super Saiyan 3. Goku sensed Super Saiyan 1 Vegetto's ki, but didn't sense Super Saiyan 3. So there ya go. Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto is as strong as Super Saiyan 4, but not Super Saiyan 1.

[nickzambuto]

Saiyan arc : Tenshinhan vs Kuririn

[TheUltimateNinja]

Super Saiyan 4 Goku (GT) V Super Saiyan Vegetto

We have conflicting evidence on this. Goku claims that Baby's ki is the most "awesome" he has ever felt. But that anime comic thing stated that Vegetto's power might even be as strong as Super Saiyan 4. On one hand, the official dialogue should probably take precedence over some obscure comic, but then again, "awesome" doesn't necessarily mean strongest, now does it? So which do we trust?

My rationalization has always been this. IIRC, the comic never said that Super Saiyan 1 Vegetto is as strong as Super Saiyan 4. Instead it stated something to the effect of, Vegetto might be. We know that Vegetto can go at least Super Saiyan 3. Goku sensed Super Saiyan 1 Vegetto's ki, but didn't sense Super Saiyan 3. So there ya go. Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto is as strong as Super Saiyan 4, but not Super Saiyan 1.

That "obscure comic" was published by Shueisha who are behind pretty much everything DB related including the guides like the Daizenshuu and the GT Perfect Files. Furthermore, Goku also said something similar about Fat Janemba but he still easily wrecked him with SSJ3.
I see no problem with SSJ Vegetto > SSJ4.

Saiyan arc : Tenshinhan vs Kuririn

If it's when Raditz arrives, Tenshinhan takes it without too much difficulty. If it's after the training gap, the gap's small enough that Kuririn can take it through his superior skill.

[Gog]

Third Form Coola V Fourth Form Freeza

[TheUltimateNinja]

Third Form Coola V Fourth Form Freeza

Freeza stomps with 2% of his power.

[Gog]

Third Form Coola V Fourth Form Freeza

Freeza stomps with 2% of his power.

You do know that third form Coola is technically his finial form? Unless you know that already and still consider Coola to be a complete and utter pathetic weakling.

Third Form Coola V Fourth Form Freeza

We have never seen Coller's third form, so it's impossible to say.[/quote]

Coola implied in the movie that the form that he was fighting Goku in. Was his third form and that he evolved beyond that form.

[dragon boss z]

Saiyan arc : Tenshinhan vs Kuririn

Tien was stated to be stronger.

Third Form Coola V Fourth Form Freeza

We have never seen Coller's third form, so it's impossible to say.

[Noah]

Super Saiyan 4 Goku (GT) V Super Saiyan Vegetto

Hard one, but I think Super Baby-Vegeta 2 is a bit stronger than Super Vegetto and SSJ4 Goku outclassed Baby in that form, so in my view he wins with medium difficult. (We never know what Vegetto could pull off)

Third Form Coola V Fourth Form Freeza

Going by the fact Coola is stronger than Freeza, is fair to assume his unseen previous forms were strong too, but I think he would need to transform in his Final Form too in order to defeat his brother, so yes Freeza wins.

[nickzambuto]

Tenshinhan's multi form at the 23ed tournament. Who is the strongest character just one of those copies could beat?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Can FPSSJ Goku (50%) tank Vegeta's Final Flash?

Tenshinhan's multi form at the 23ed tournament. Who is the strongest character just one of those copies could beat?

Probably 50% Daimao.

[dragon boss z]

Can FPSSJ Goku (50%) tank Vegeta's Final Flash?

Tenshinhan's multi form at the 23ed tournament. Who is the strongest character just one of those copies could beat?

Probably 50% Daimao.

Didn't each form split his power? That would make 23rd Tien over twice as strong as King Piccolo.
We know BOZ Tien was at 250, and 1/4 of that would be 62.5. One of the wouldn't even be able to beat base Roshi at 50% which is 69.5. So just going by the manga, and not even the guides, that doesn't add up.