"Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others".

[MDSTSSJ]

In a real fight to the death, sure, Goku could kill Buu. But I'm talking about at the Budokai.

Now I catch you better!!! Fair enough!!!

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Guys, remember the Pure Boo vs Mr. Boo fight? Once Boo is overpowered, he gets tired & takes damage. SS3 Goku can KO any Boo that is weaker than him.

[Darkprince410]

Guys, remember the Pure Boo vs Mr. Boo fight? Once Boo is overpowered, he gets tired & takes damage. SS3 Goku can KO any Boo that is weaker than him.

Of course, Vegeta would lead you to believe that it only works if it's Buu fighting against Buu, and is something that Goku wouldn't be able to reproduce.

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P5.3
Context: as pure Boo beats up on good Boo some more
Vegeta: “…This is bad…Have you noticed, Kakarot?...The fatso’s power is falling…If it’s Boo against Boo, then he can take damage…”

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Beerus wasn't a Boo, and he KOed Mr. Boo with a Kiai.

[hleV]

↑ Possibly yet another BOG retcon.

[Blade]

Beerus wasn't a Boo, and he KOed Mr. Boo with a Kiai.

Birus also KO'ed Super Saiyan 3 Goku with a gentle chop to the neck, the point being that as a God of Destruction he's incredibly powerful and in a whole different world to anyone else encountered in the story up until that point.

↑ Possibly yet another BOG retcon.

I don't think so. Buu's resistance to damage surely has its limit beyond his power being low, surely there's a limit to how much damage he can endure - and when we're talking Birus we're talking a whole different scale from anything that has attacked him previously.

[hleV]

From what I gather about Boo's anatomy, getting hit once shouldn't knock him out. He needs his whole body damaged to get weaker (and possibly KO'd). Hitting him in one spot shouldn't do a damn thing, as all his cells seem to be conscious on their own.

Beerus also knocked Piccolo out with chopsticks. Does Beerus' strength make everything he uses just as powerful? Or was it a gag? If it was, wouldn't that apply to Boo?

[Hugo Boss]

Well, Gohan & Gotenks were stronger than Goku because they were going to replace Goku as the protagonists of the series, but eventually Goku took back the place. Now, they just create hype with the main character, along with everyone else, not been able to beat this new villain that is more powerful than Majin Boo. Besides, Gohan's BoG bio says that Gohan has power surpassing that of a pure Saiyan, implying that he is stronger than Goku & Vegeta.

I agree they should be potentially stronger than Goku, but in fact stronger is something I'm still not sure about, since I've watched the 13th movie, which gives the impression that Goku is the strongest. About Gohan's BoG bio, don't you think it is a vague assumption? It could be referring to Saiyans in general, their pure/base form or maybe just Vegeta aside from Goku.

[MDSTSSJ]

Well, Gohan & Gotenks were stronger than Goku because they were going to replace Goku as the protagonists of the series, but eventually Goku took back the place. Now, they just create hype with the main character, along with everyone else, not been able to beat this new villain that is more powerful than Majin Boo. Besides, Gohan's BoG bio says that Gohan has power surpassing that of a pure Saiyan, implying that he is stronger than Goku & Vegeta.

About Gohan's BoG bio, don't you think it is a vague assumption? It could be referring to Saiyans in general, their pure/base form or maybe just Vegeta aside from Goku.

Gohan's Bio refers to Pure Saiyans in general like you said. Goku will always be out of that Bio statement and now more than ever because we have now that Kakarotto has immeasurable power. Well, I've always presumed that because he always surpass his own limits thanks to his very hard work.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Birus also KO'ed Super Saiyan 3 Goku with a gentle chop to the neck, the point being that as a God of Destruction he's incredibly powerful and in a whole different world to anyone else encountered in the story up until that point.

That's my point. Once Boo is overpowered, he can take damage.

From what I gather about Boo's anatomy, getting hit once shouldn't knock him out. He needs his whole body damaged to get weaker (and possibly KO'd). Hitting him in one spot shouldn't do a damn thing, as all his cells seem to be conscious on their own.

Boo doesn't bleed when he loses parts of his body, or when he gets holes in his body, or when turns into many pieces, but Super Vegetto could make him bleed with his punches (and I think Gohan managed to do so?).
And then, we saw another Boo with the same abilities as Mr. Boo, but with power far greater than his, actually causing damage to him, making his power fall, and KOing him.

Beerus also knocked Piccolo out with chopsticks. Does Beerus' strength make everything he uses just as powerful? Or was it a gag? If it was, wouldn't that apply to Boo?

It's very similar with how Piccolo Daimao damaged Goku with rocks, when bullets couldn't hurt a far weaker version of Goku.

I agree they should be potentially stronger than Goku, but in fact stronger is something I'm still not sure about, since I've watched the 13th movie, which gives the impression that Goku is the strongest.

Well, Hildegarn was far stronger than U. Gohan, SS3 Gotenks, and SS3 Goku, but he had to use that special ability that transforms him into a ghost in order to avoid damage. For him to have such a defense mechanism, it makes me believe that his durability sucks hard. And SS3 Goku used his most powerful attack to kill him. So, we don't have definitive proof in M13 that Goku really is the strongest either.

About Gohan's BoG bio, don't you think it is a vague assumption? It could be referring to Saiyans in general, their pure/base form or maybe just Vegeta aside from Goku.

The only pure Saiyans at that point are Goku & Vegeta (and Tarble, but he is irrelevant because he isn't a fighter). We've had other similar statements like this: We have U. Gohan being stronger than a Super Saiyan 3, Super Vegetto being perhaps stronger than a Super Saiyan 4, and SS4 Gogeta being stronger than dozens of times stronger than a Super Saiyan 4. When saying that someone is stronger than a pure Saiyan or a Super Saiyan 3 or a Super Saiyan 4, they are talking about every normal pure Saiyan or a Super Saiyan 3 or a Super Saiyan 4.

It seems to me that ever since Toriyama decided to make Goku the star again, he & Toei found excuses to not let Gohan & Gotenks shine so that Goku can:

• In the manga, Goku chose to use the Super Genki Dama instead of bringing Gohan & Gotenks against Pure Boo.
• In Movie 13, the villain was stronger than all the heroes, took out Gohan & Gotenks when they were off-guard, and Goku defeated him with a new technique after discovering his weakness.
• In GT, Gohan & Goten didn't travel in space, Gohan lost his Ultimate state for some reason, and Goten & Trunks turned evil when they were both on Earth, until Goku got Super Saiyan 4, which surpassed U. Gohan & SS3 Gotenks.
• In the JSAT Special, the villain was very weak, and Gotenks was fucking around.
• In Battle of Gods, the villain is far stronger than everyone, and Gohan & Gotenks happen to be the only ones that piss off Beerus enough to make him KO them instantly, while Goku & Vegeta don't piss him off, and he tests them.

And even the guidebooks never say directly that Gohan & Gotenks are stronger than Goku. There are only implications & vague statements.

So, the official stuff don't want to admit that Goku, the main character, is not the strongest character. They make Goku & Vegeta (the current stars of the franchise) appear to be the strongest guys, but if you check back the facts, and pay attention, they are not the strongest. The made them stronger in GT through SS4, but GT failed. Now they did it again in BoG through SSGod (Goku got it & Vegeta is hinted to get it in the future as well), which is part of the successful DBZ, so they can be more relaxed now that SS Goku, by the end of DBZ, is the strongest Z-Senshi.

Goku will always be out of that Bio statement and now more than ever because we have now that Kakarotto has immeasurable power.

He said that after seeing Super Saiyan God, and Gohan & Gotenks didn't get the chance to do anything to impress Beers. It doesn't say anything about Goku being stronger than Gohan. Beerus saw that Goku & Vegeta are very skilled fighters, he saw that Super Saiyan God could bring them close to his level and that any Saiyan can transform into it, and he saw that they have potential to get stronger & become a thread for him. It doesn't say anything about Gohan or Gotenks, because Beerus barely knows anything about them.

[hleV]

From what I gather about Boo's anatomy, getting hit once shouldn't knock him out. He needs his whole body damaged to get weaker (and possibly KO'd). Hitting him in one spot shouldn't do a damn thing, as all his cells seem to be conscious on their own.

Boo doesn't bleed when he loses parts of his body, or when he gets holes in his body, or when turns into many pieces, but Super Vegetto could make him bleed with his punches (and I think Gohan managed to do so?).
And then, we saw another Boo with the same abilities as Mr. Boo, but with power far greater than his, actually causing damage to him, making his power fall, and KOing him.

Not sure what does bleeding have to do with anything. Boo didn't initially have a nose, he got it through absorbtions. Perhaps that's why it bleeds? To show that he inherited some traits of his absorbees (besides the already obvious ones)?
Pure Boo damaged Mr. Boo's whole body. Similarly how SS3 Gotenks damaged Evil Boo (though Evil Boo was regarded to being mentally damaged rather than physically).

Beerus also knocked Piccolo out with chopsticks. Does Beerus' strength make everything he uses just as powerful? Or was it a gag? If it was, wouldn't that apply to Boo?

It's very similar with how Piccolo Daimao damaged Goku with rocks, when bullets couldn't hurt a far weaker version of Goku.

You mean when the rocks hit an exhausted, hurt and powered down Goku and then shattered? Because not only did they have way lesser effect, but stones are way, way harder than chopsticks. The chopsticks should've broken, yet Piccolo somehow got KO'd.

[RandomGuy96]

Beers probably just put his ki into the chopsticks. We've seen people do that tons of times, such as Trunks, Yajirobe, and Dabra with their swords and Goku with his finger.

[hleV]

Beers probably just put his ki into the chopsticks. We've seen people do that tons of times, such as Trunks, Yajirobe, and Dabra with their swords and Goku with his finger.

Trunks and Yajirobe didn't "put" ki into their swords, and Goku's finger is part of his body.

[RandomGuy96]

Beers probably just put his ki into the chopsticks. We've seen people do that tons of times, such as Trunks, Yajirobe, and Dabra with their swords and Goku with his finger.

Trunks and Yajirobe didn't "put" ki into their swords, and Goku's finger is part of his body.

I thought that they empowered their weapons with their ki, and that if not for the people wielding them, they'd just be ordinary swords? Isn't that the point Trunks was trying to make to King Cold?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Not sure what does bleeding have to do with anything. Boo didn't initially have a nose, he got it through absorbtions. Perhaps that's why it bleeds? To show that he inherited some traits of his absorbees (besides the already obvious ones)?

Evil Boo bled as well from U. Gohan's hits, and Mr. Boo also bled from Pure Boo's hits. Boo bleeding always seemed to me that he was taking real damage, since it only happened against the only guys that overpowered him by a big margin (Ultimate Gohan against Evil Boo, Super Vegetto against Gohan Boo, and Pure Boo against Mr. Boo).

Pure Boo damaged Mr. Boo's whole body. Similarly how SS3 Gotenks damaged Evil Boo (though Evil Boo was regarded to being mentally damaged rather than physically).

Both examples are with Boo's opponents not extremely far in power with him, while Beerus is hundreds (perhaps thousands) of times more powerful than Mr. Boo.

You mean when the rocks hit an exhausted, hurt and powered down Goku and then shattered? Because not only did they have way lesser effect, but stones are way, way harder than chopsticks. The chopsticks should've broken, yet Piccolo somehow got KO'd.

That exhausted, hurt and powered down Goku had enough energy to kill Daimao (by concentrating all his remaining power in his fist, but still), he can't be weaker than Goku from the beginning. And like RandomGuy96 said, it's possible that the chopsticks were amplified with ki, like the examples he mentioned & the Swordsmen in DBO.

Trunks and Yajirobe didn't "put" ki into their swords, and Goku's finger is part of his body.

They do in the video-games.

[goku the krump dancer]

Person A can most definitely damage person B with an ordinary object depending on these situations :

*They're stronger than their opponent: Despite Freeza surviving Nameks explosion with not only just half a head but barely any chi left, Trunks was still that much stronger than him where he couls slice through him like butter with an plain old sword. Trunks was on pretty much on par with #14 in Movie 7 and could muster up the strength to slice through him, however in the main story he was over powered by 18 and thus could not muster up strength needed to slice through her and we also see that in Movie & he wasnt strong enough to slice through Super 13 either.

*Weak Spots: I think tails period are weak spots but thats neither here nor there at the moment. We know saiyans are weakened when their tails are pulled, grabbed, stomped on, whatever, however they can train their tail to not be so tender. But be that as it may its still a weak spot regardless and thus to an unspecting Vegeta Yajirobe (someone who actually does has some sort of worth while training under his belt) was able to cut his tail off.

*The opponent is weakened: Again at this point in the fight Vegeta had taken quite a beating and his chi had dropped considerably, thus a Yajirobe who was still at %100 at the time was able to get in another good sneak attack.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Beers probably just put his ki into the chopsticks. We've seen people do that tons of times, such as Trunks, Yajirobe, and Dabra with their swords and Goku with his finger.

Trunks and Yajirobe didn't "put" ki into their swords, and Goku's finger is part of his body.

I thought that they empowered their weapons with their ki, and that if not for the people wielding them, they'd just be ordinary swords? Isn't that the point Trunks was trying to make to King Cold?

I always assumed the effectiveness of the sword came down to their actual physical power rather than adding any Chi to it. Everyone seemed to be impressed with Gohan's ability to swing the Z-Sword, which basically came down to his physical strength and ability to wield the sword. Still, it's certainly possible.

[hleV]

Not sure what does bleeding have to do with anything. Boo didn't initially have a nose, he got it through absorbtions. Perhaps that's why it bleeds? To show that he inherited some traits of his absorbees (besides the already obvious ones)?

Evil Boo bled as well from U. Gohan's hits, and Mr. Boo also bled from Pure Boo's hits. Boo bleeding always seemed to me that he was taking real damage, since it only happened against the only guys that overpowered him by a big margin (Ultimate Gohan against Evil Boo, Super Vegetto against Gohan Boo, and Pure Boo against Mr. Boo).

I still don't see what bleeding has to do with anything. And I don't quite remember Mr. Boo ever bleeding. Which page was that in? Same goes to Evil Boo. Unlike against Vegetto, where he has a nose and definitely bleeds, there might be just a bruise under his lip (doesn't seem any different from other bruises all over his face and body).

Pure Boo damaged Mr. Boo's whole body. Similarly how SS3 Gotenks damaged Evil Boo (though Evil Boo was regarded to being mentally damaged rather than physically).

Both examples are with Boo's opponents not extremely far in power with him, while Beerus is hundreds (perhaps thousands) of times more powerful than Mr. Boo.

Both examples are with Boo's opponents damaging Boo properly (his whole body). A single punch shouldn't do shit, just like a ki blast doesn't do shit even if it goes through Boo.

You mean when the rocks hit an exhausted, hurt and powered down Goku and then shattered? Because not only did they have way lesser effect, but stones are way, way harder than chopsticks. The chopsticks should've broken, yet Piccolo somehow got KO'd.

That exhausted, hurt and powered down Goku had enough energy to kill Daimao (by concentrating all his remaining power in his fist, but still), he can't be weaker than Goku from the beginning. And like RandomGuy96 said, it's possible that the chopsticks were amplified with ki, like the examples he mentioned & the Swordsmen in DBO.

I didn't say Goku was weaker than in the beginning, I said that the comparison is wrong and pointed out why. Also it may be just a gameplay element, but if it was all about using ki to empower weapons, why would the weapons in DBO need to be upgraded/replaced with better ones?

Trunks and Yajirobe didn't "put" ki into their swords, and Goku's finger is part of his body.

They do in the video-games.

Thanks for bringing this up. This totally concludes the discussion!

I thought that they empowered their weapons with their ki, and that if not for the people wielding them, they'd just be ordinary swords? Isn't that the point Trunks was trying to make to King Cold?

Of course it depends on the wielder's strength, but the "item" doesn't get empowered with ki... Imagine a rock and a knife. You wouldn't be able cut the rock unless the knife was so sturdy (I doubt such exists IRL) that it wouldn't bend down and the wielder had the strength to actually put that knife through the rock. It's the same thing in DB. Trunks had a very good sword and the power to use it. It wasn't sturdy enough to go through #18, though.

[RandomGuy96]

I always assumed the effectiveness of the sword came down to their actual physical power rather than adding any Chi to it. Everyone seemed to be impressed with Gohan's ability to swing the Z-Sword, which basically came down to his physical strength and ability to wield the sword. Still, it's certainly possible.

Eh... I go with the strength depending on the user's ki because otherwise these swords just look arbitrarily overpowered. For example, if Yajirobe's sword could cut through Oozaru Vegeta, why did no one even consider using it against Nappa or Raditz?

Also, it implies that Trunks' sword would never be able to do anything to the androids no matter how strong he got. I don't really like that implication, it makes the whole sword gimmick even more pointless and useless/ If it was just down to the sword's strength, not his, why is he even surprised that a sword that does nothing to his own bare skin when wielded by King Cold also does nothing to the androids when wielded by him?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

So...we pretty much agree, then. I think it comes down to the user's strength. Like, I'm quite sure Post-Rosat Super Saiyan Trunks would slice #18 in two if his sword wasn't broken at that point.

When looking back at my previous post, I can see why you thought I was referring to the swords strength. By "their", I was referring to the user of the sword.