The general American fanbase really annoys me.

[TheGmGoken]

A lot of the guys I knew in my grade had older brothers. If you know what I'm talking about, than you understand. My male "peers" heard things like DBZ was gay and for little kids mostly from their older siblings.They just didn't know what they were talking about obviously.

The corny and cheesy as hell FUNi dub has a lot to do with that, as we all know...

I think Freeza English dub had the most impact on the people saying that

[Thanos]

Did you just say that thinking the American dub is better than the original is factually wrong?

No, but the Japanese version is the original, true version. That is a fact. When dubbies denounce it, that is fallacious. They're free to dislike it and prefer the dub, but the say that the American dub somehow is more official or holds more merit is just bogus (and yes, I have come across this argument several times).

[dprez]

I think Freeza English dub had the most impact on the people saying that

Easily, yes. Freeza's voice coupled with typical good guy super hero Goku. It's so easy to make fun of.

[matt0044]

How to translate things is an issue. Do you go with liberties to make it sound better? Do you go really literal, to the point of being stilted? Or do you try to use translator's notes to fill in words that need context explained? It's rare to do that in official subs, and fansubs can do it to the point of stupidity at times:



This is actually real. TV-Nihon did that for their Mahou Sentai Magiranger subs...THAT'S weeaboo (to clarify from an earlier point).



For something like this, do you do the above? Do you directly translate the term as "Before breakfast"? Or do you use a similarly fitting American term and go for "Now that was easy as pie!"? I'd personally go for the more liberal translation as it makes the most sense for an English Sub release that you'd see on a DVD for a general audience. The direct translation just sounds wrong, and the translator's note method only is worth it for those who care to learn such things (which doesn't effect the general audience), and not only that, it makes slower readers have to pause to read the whole thing, when a simple and to the point translation works best in such a situation. Besides, for all the meaning of the term, it's not a necessary or recurring thing, so using a well known English idiom in place of a Japanese one that has the same basic intent works great (this isn't always possible, but for this example, it works).

On the matter of fanbases, just remember guys...we're all fans, no matter the country we live in, audio track we love, music choice we prefer, or whether we prefer manga or anime. We're all passionate fans; that's why we're here, right?

On the opposite side of TV Nihon is Overtime Subs. Here's an example from their Kyoryuger fan subs which employs a good amount of Woolseyisms.

[Gaffer Tape]

The thing about subtitles is that I don't want Woolseyisms in them. When I watch subtitles, I hope for as direct a translation a possible. Now, obviously everyone's "as possible" is going to be different. That whole "o baka chan tachi" seems completely ridiculous to me. There's no reason not to just translate that out that I can see. But then again, I don't have the context. Say, for instance, it was an example where the point of the sentence was that it rhymed or dictated a certain number of syllables or something else clever that just couldn't directly carry over, then I'd be quite a bit more lenient in regards to that. Because, the truth is, whenever I see a word play in a foreign language subtitle that doesn't require some kind of brief explanation, I'm going to assume it was altered, and I'm going to be annoyed wondering what the actual line was, and, by extension, how much else of this subtitle track I can trust. I think an example that works really well is the driving episode in DBZ, where Goku mistakes the word for accelerator for the word that means "smells of sweat." And I think Simmons was very concise, not like the above examples, giving you just enough that you get the joke.

As for the second example, I'd say that's a little tougher, but I don't think it would be too hard to expend some creativity to write that line in a way that both accurately translates it and doesn't require that huge explanation above. Just off the top of my head, maybe just, "This'll be easier than scarfing down breakfast." But, hell, I'd even take the, "easy as pie" example listed earlier.

[Mewzard]

On the opposite side of TV Nihon is Overtime Subs. Here's an example from their Kyoryuger fan subs which employs a good amount of Woolseyisms.

http://morphinlegacy.com/wp-content/upl ... 54s204.png

http://25.media.tumblr.com/e3a7568572b2 ... o1_500.jpg

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9 ... vXOREfuHAt

The main point of "Nossan" 's character is that he's an old man who does terrible old man jokes. Literally translating them is a terrible decision. When it comes to jokes (especially ones that depend on the wordplay), translator's notes don't work. They don't work for an important reason: Explaining the joke kills it. Luckily, a few times in the subs, they've been able to keep it pretty close due to it being an English pun (Nossan sometimes does those), but you won't always have that luxury. For a character who's supposed to be cracking terrible jokes, you need to be able to groan from the joke, not an explanation of the joke.

There's a reason why I love Over-Time's subs and hate TV-Nihon's subs (besides the fact that TV-N tends to make far more translation errors, and I know this thanks to a friend who does Toku subbing), it's that their subs are plagued with non-translation translations. They expect you to know what words are that they translated once 5-6 years ago in an old series. Commonly used Japanese, verbal tics, honorifics, tachi, they love leaving as much in Japanese as is physically possible while calling themselves a "subbing group"

There's a difference between "Woolseyisms" and making something work in English. We're not talking bastardizing a translation here, we're talking the bare minimum to make a translation work (make the characters sound like native English speakers if they're native Japanese speakers, don't leave random bits of the original language in, make jokes make sense in English if they make sense in Japanese, use an equivalent English Idiom if there is one for a Japanese idiom (unless it works in English as well)).

If people were supposed to understand it in Japanese, sub viewers are supposed to understand it in English. We usually only make exceptions to proper names, or stuff that is pretty exclusive to the culture (which, often, can be adapted into English speaking, like Samurai, Ninja, Bushido, Geisha, Karaoke *well, that's not so exclusive anymore, lol*, etc).

And no, Henshin, Nakama, stuff like that doesn't count. >_>

[Adamant]

As for the second example, I'd say that's a little tougher, but I don't think it would be too hard to expend some creativity to write that line in a way that both accurately translates it and doesn't require that huge explanation above. Just off the top of my head, maybe just, "This'll be easier than scarfing down breakfast." But, hell, I'd even take the, "easy as pie" example listed earlier.

"Asameshi mae" is an actual Japanese idiom that just means "very easy". The correct way to translate it is just to use an English idiom that means the same. Unless the literal meaning of idiom is being used to make a pun, the literal meaning of the words are completely irrelevant, there's no need to give them any attention.

Also, none of those Nossan examples are Woolseyisms. A Woolseyism is when then translator completely ignores the original line and replaces it with something they made up themselves, and this change is seen as an improvement. Translating jokes into something that works in English isn't Woolseyism, it's just translating.
Tossing Star Trek references into Forze's exposition infodump intro would be Woolseyim, though. Same with that "Forever Silver" Power Rangers joke.

[matt0044]

Also, none of those Nossan examples are Woolseyisms. A Woolseyism is when then translator completely ignores the original line and replaces it with something they made up themselves, and this change is seen as an improvement. Translating jokes into something that works in English isn't Woolseyism, it's just translating.
Tossing Star Trek references into Forze's exposition infodump intro would be Woolseyim, though. Same with that "Forever Silver" Power Rangers joke.

Ah. Thanks for clarifying.

Oh, and let's not forget how OT translate Utchy's Japanese into very formal English.

[Hellspawn28]

Did you just say that thinking the American dub is better than the original is factually wrong?

No, but the Japanese version is the original, true version.

What he said. You don't have to like the Japanese dub, but you still have to respect it since the original version. I think this happens with any Japanese franchise that becomes popular in the US were they act like the American version is better because it's not in Japanese. It's like how some Power Rangers fans are where they hate watching Super Sentai because it's in Japanese. I remember people like August Ragone told me that he saw discussions on the Internet during the late 90's and early 2000's seeing if fans were interested in seeing the Sentai shows, and they not only were against it, they were racist about it

[Gaffer Tape]

Also, none of those Nossan examples are Woolseyisms. A Woolseyism is when then translator completely ignores the original line and replaces it with something they made up themselves, and this change is seen as an improvement. Translating jokes into something that works in English isn't Woolseyism, it's just translating.

I disagree because what you just said is very contradictory. If you're making the jokes work by changing them into an entirely different joke because the original doesn't work in English, that's still "replacing it with something they made up themselves." Whether it's an improvement or a necessity or not is up to indivduals' opinions, but it's certainly the complete opposite of "translating." "Localizing," sure. "Translating," no.

[Adamant]

Also, none of those Nossan examples are Woolseyisms. A Woolseyism is when then translator completely ignores the original line and replaces it with something they made up themselves, and this change is seen as an improvement. Translating jokes into something that works in English isn't Woolseyism, it's just translating.

I disagree because what you just said is very contradictory. If you're making the jokes work by changing them into an entirely different joke because the original doesn't work in English, that's still "replacing it with something they made up themselves." Whether it's an improvement or a necessity or not is up to indivduals' opinions, but it's certainly the complete opposite of "translating." "Localizing," sure. "Translating," no.

Translating a line properly means taking the content of the line and changing it into something that has that same meaning in another language. This isn't done by just changing every word into what that word means in the other language, but by writing a line that represents how this line would've been said in the other language. And if said line involves a play on words, of course you have to work a similar play on words into the translation as well, since the intent of the line is to have such wordplay in it.
These aren't "entirely different jokes", they're what the translator felt was the best English equivalent of the original jokes.

Woolseyism is dragging in something that was never there in the first place.

[Super Sonic]

Did you just say that thinking the American dub is better than the original is factually wrong?

No, but the Japanese version is the original, true version.

What he said. You don't have to like the Japanese dub, but you still have to respect it since the original version. I think this happens with any Japanese franchise that becomes popular in the US were they act like the American version is better because it's not in Japanese. It's like how some Power Rangers fans are where they hate watching Super Sentai because it's in Japanese. I remember people like August Ragone told me that he saw discussions on the Internet during the late 90's and early 2000's seeing if fans were interested in seeing the Sentai shows, and they not only were against it, they were racist about it

Yeah, I remember seeing arguments over Sentai and PR and which was better. Some of them could be worse than anime sub/dub fights. And I was holding my head that guys in their 20s were arguing about shows aimed at ten year-olds. Though PR got into it as a take that at guys who argue about such things. Watch aseason 12 episode called "Lost and Found in Translation".

[Gaffer Tape]

And I was holding my head that guys in their 20s were arguing about shows aimed at ten year-olds.

Isn't that exactly what we're constantly doing here?

[TheGmGoken]

And I was holding my head that guys in their 20s were arguing about shows aimed at ten year-olds.

You do realize. Stuff kids are suppose to watch Teens - adults watch it more. Things adults or teens suppose to like Kids watch it.

[Hellspawn28]

Most anime shows on Adult Swim are for kids in Japan. Things here in the US are much different then it is here in the US. I remember one Bleach fan got pissy at me for calling Bleach a kids show.

[TheGmGoken]

Most anime shows on Adult Swim are for kids in Japan. Things here in the US are much different then it is here in the US. I remember one Bleach fan got pissy at me for calling Bleach a kids show.

LOL. I love when that happens. Truly shows the ignorance of some people.

[Ringworm128]

I recall someone saying that DBZ was for adults because the dub had a few words like "freaking" and "pissed off" which are words me and my friends knew about when we were 7-8 years old.

[Zephyr]

Did you just say that thinking the American dub is better than the original is factually wrong?

Well in terms of correctly representing the characters and properly conveying what the series actually is, saying that the dub does a better job of this is factually wrong.

[Thanos]

I'm surprised how often emphasis is put upon what the intended demographic is. It's for people who enjoy it. I don't necessarily buy that it's FOR kids. Sure, it's developed around that basic idea, but that's because that is who the majority of the audience is at the time it airs. But in the long run, it's the older fans that stick with it. Let's take the Sparking! games. By this point, Dragon Ball had been off TV for ten years. The amount of care that was taken in terms of fan service in that games seems to me to be aimed at young adults and older. No kids would've been old enough to see the show when it was on by the time these games came out... and the content was obviously aimed toward hardcore fans, who would be, at the youngest, young adults at that time.

To me this suggests that, while at its core it may be designed for young boys, it ultimately transcends that. Eventually the teams involved in developing merchandise for the franchise caught onto this, and adjusted their products and marketing accordingly.

So to me it really doesn't do it any justice to say, "Oh, we're just arguing about some kids show."


Yeah, I was a little kid when I started watching it, but plenty of people a lot older than me have enjoyed the show long before I started.

[KingofWisdom]

The dub fans do have this annoying air of ignorance radiating from them sometimes. It really bothers me when Beerus/Beers, however you want to write it, is referred to as Bills. They always seem to be the ones arguing about power levels too.