The Cell Saga Is The Lowest Rated Saga?

[Wibbs]

He didn't know how strong or fast Cell would get in his perfect form and perhaps he got on some level that there was a tradeoff, but didn't figure it was that drastic to make a big difference. Even smart people can make mistakes that in retrospect seem obvious.

I see where you're coming from. To be honest I was thinking about it too much. The only thing I'm wondering about now is how Vegeta never knew about it.

Who says he didn't? Trunks realizes that Vegeta never used the form because he knew about its weaknesses.

If he already knew about it then why didn't he mention it to Trunks - his son. What if Cell had killed Trunks, for all Vegeta knew it could have been his fault because he forgot to mention "oh by the way Trunks, your new form sucks a big one". There's carelessness and then there's not giving a shit, although given Vegeta's past expressions of love towards Trunks I'd bank on it being the latter.

[Kamiccolo9]

If he already knew about it then why didn't he mention it to Trunks - his son. What if Cell had killed Trunks, for all Vegeta knew it could have been his fault because he forgot to mention "oh by the way Trunks, your new form sucks a big one". There's carelessness and then there's not giving a shit, although given Vegeta's past expressions of love towards Trunks I'd bank on it being the latter.

Because Vegeta is a dick.

[Wibbs]

If he already knew about it then why didn't he mention it to Trunks - his son. What if Cell had killed Trunks, for all Vegeta knew it could have been his fault because he forgot to mention "oh by the way Trunks, your new form sucks a big one". There's carelessness and then there's not giving a shit, although given Vegeta's past expressions of love towards Trunks I'd bank on it being the latter.

Because Vegeta is a dick.

No he isn't. YOU TAKE THAT BACK!




Oh.....

[Kamiccolo9]

If he already knew about it then why didn't he mention it to Trunks - his son. What if Cell had killed Trunks, for all Vegeta knew it could have been his fault because he forgot to mention "oh by the way Trunks, your new form sucks a big one". There's carelessness and then there's not giving a shit, although given Vegeta's past expressions of love towards Trunks I'd bank on it being the latter.

Because Vegeta is a dick.

No he isn't. YOU TAKE THAT BACK!

Spoiler:

Oh.....

You know, I'd actually consider that one of Vegeta's less dickish scenes. He was saving the kids' lives, and they weren't gonna leave on their own. A better one, and one that fits into this topic, is where he starts insulting Trunks for not immediately seeing what Goku and Gohan had accomplished with their training:

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

[Wibbs]

You know, I'd actually consider that one of Vegeta's less dickish scenes. He was saving the kids' lives, and they weren't gonna leave on their own. A better one, and one that fits into this topic, is where he starts insulting Trunks for not immediately seeing what Goku and Gohan had accomplished with their training:

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

I was looking for a picture of that part where Vegeta punches Future Trunks in the gut. But Google blows what can I say. You're right though, even when correcting someone he manages to be a dick. And he knew Trunks was his son at that point too, Class-A parent that one.

[Gaffer Tape]

RoSaT. It's a highly convenient thing brought right the F out of no where.

RoST wasnt invented in that arc though. I'm pretty sure it already existed in dragonball.

Yes, it was. It had never been seen, mentioned, or hinted at until the Cell arc.

[Saiga]

Trunks is naive. He doesn't have the experience the others do and only had one mentor, who died well before Trunks become a proper fighter. Goku is able to recognize Grade III's flaws immediately upon transforming because he's a genius, but Trunks had to actually use the form to learn about this. And because he was hiding the form from Vegeta, he didn't have a chance to actually test it out.

edit: On the topic of the RoSaT, it comes out of nowhere, but it fits pretty well with the story thanks to the events of the previous arcs. It's explained that Goku couldn't handle it while training with God, and then he's immediately killed at the start of the Saiyan arc, arrives just in time to meet the Saiyans, sent off to Namek immediately, off world for a while, then when he comes back he has plenty of time to prepare for the Androids. And then when he doesn't have time, that's when the RoSaT comes into play. The only real question is why it didn't come up for the humans in the Saiyan arc, but they likely were not able to handle it at that stage either.

I like the RoSaT because when shit is going down during an arc, there isn't much time for training and the RoSaT got around that. What we got out of the RoSaT more than makes up for the retcon is brings with it.

[Kid Buu]

Well I get that vibe that Toriyama made that form so Trunks battle with Cell wouldn't be a rehash of Vegeta's battle with Cell, which already felt too similar to Yamcha's battle with Tenshinhan anyway.

[Kamiccolo9]

The only real question is why it didn't come up for the humans in the Saiyan arc, but they likely were not able to handle it at that stage either.

That's why I like the Pendulum Room in the Saiyan Arc filler. Personally, I think it draws an interesting parallel to the Holy Water and the Super Divine Water (or whatever they are called; I can never get them straight ) with one being the "test" designed to teach a lesson (that the Earthlings were nowhere near ready for the Saiyans/that Goku had to catch Karin and increase his speed in order to get the water) and the other being the thing that actually made you stronger. It feels really Dragon Ballish to me.

I also think that the Earthlings couldn't survive in the high gravity anyway, but that's just me.

[FrogTrigger]

This saga still has one of the best kicks ever

That and Cell's freakput over Goku's Kamehameha was great

[RandomGuy96]

edit: On the topic of the RoSaT, it comes out of nowhere, but it fits pretty well with the story thanks to the events of the previous arcs. It's explained that Goku couldn't handle it while training with God, and then he's immediately killed at the start of the Saiyan arc, arrives just in time to meet the Saiyans, sent off to Namek immediately, off world for a while, then when he comes back he has plenty of time to prepare for the Androids. And then when he doesn't have time, that's when the RoSaT comes into play. The only real question is why it didn't come up for the humans in the Saiyan arc, but they likely were not able to handle it at that stage either.

Why didn't Goku and co just use it during the three years of training? Or show it to Trunks, thus instantly making him strong enough to crush the androids? Furthermore, why does the ROSAT training give such a ridiculous boost?

[FrogTrigger]

edit: On the topic of the RoSaT, it comes out of nowhere, but it fits pretty well with the story thanks to the events of the previous arcs. It's explained that Goku couldn't handle it while training with God, and then he's immediately killed at the start of the Saiyan arc, arrives just in time to meet the Saiyans, sent off to Namek immediately, off world for a while, then when he comes back he has plenty of time to prepare for the Androids. And then when he doesn't have time, that's when the RoSaT comes into play. The only real question is why it didn't come up for the humans in the Saiyan arc, but they likely were not able to handle it at that stage either.

Why didn't Goku and co just use it during the three years of training? Or show it to Trunks, thus instantly making him strong enough to crush the androids? Furthermore, why does the ROSAT training give such a ridiculous boost?

I guess the year in a day allows for all the training they could do to get stronger in a short amount of time?

I'd say the environment helps but I don't think so

[qjz123]

edit: On the topic of the RoSaT, it comes out of nowhere, but it fits pretty well with the story thanks to the events of the previous arcs. It's explained that Goku couldn't handle it while training with God, and then he's immediately killed at the start of the Saiyan arc, arrives just in time to meet the Saiyans, sent off to Namek immediately, off world for a while, then when he comes back he has plenty of time to prepare for the Androids. And then when he doesn't have time, that's when the RoSaT comes into play. The only real question is why it didn't come up for the humans in the Saiyan arc, but they likely were not able to handle it at that stage either.

Why didn't Goku and co just use it during the three years of training? Or show it to Trunks, thus instantly making him strong enough to crush the androids? Furthermore, why does the ROSAT training give such a ridiculous boost?

I always thought that the reason the ROSAT provided a much larger boost than training out in the real world was because Goku and Vegeta assumed that the SSJ1 transformation that they had already achieved was their limit, the pinnacle of a Saiyans power, Future Gohan seemed to think the same thing since he was never able to get stronger than the androids even though he has the same hidden potential as present Gohan. So I always assumed that Goku spent 3 years essentially twiddling his thumbs in a sense, I mean I think he tried to improve his control of the form, things like being able to transform on demand but I don't think he actually gained any power. When Vegeta lost to 18 he vowed to himself that he would ascend both he and Goku refused to believe that their current level could be their maximum so they attempted to find a way to ascend, which is why I think they made huge gains in the ROSAT. As for why they didn't use it during their 3 years of training I think that can be answered by the time limit the room has 48 hours or the equivalence of 2 years you don't just want to waste that time when you don't have too not to mention the fact that Training in there is torture the gravity is higher the temperature shifts violently and its a big pit of nothingness enough to drive a person mad, also in the case of Goku and Gohan the food sucked because they couldn't cook. Theres no point in torturing your body when you don't have to. As for why they didn't tell Trunks well it wouldn't have helped him even if they did tell him about the ROSAT remember Goku and Vegeta trained for 3 years and they were no match for the androids if Trunks had gone into the ROSAT he would have spent 1 or 2 years twiddling his thumbs because at that point the idea of there being something past SSJ was unheard of.

[Saiga]

edit: On the topic of the RoSaT, it comes out of nowhere, but it fits pretty well with the story thanks to the events of the previous arcs. It's explained that Goku couldn't handle it while training with God, and then he's immediately killed at the start of the Saiyan arc, arrives just in time to meet the Saiyans, sent off to Namek immediately, off world for a while, then when he comes back he has plenty of time to prepare for the Androids. And then when he doesn't have time, that's when the RoSaT comes into play. The only real question is why it didn't come up for the humans in the Saiyan arc, but they likely were not able to handle it at that stage either.

Why didn't Goku and co just use it during the three years of training? Or show it to Trunks, thus instantly making him strong enough to crush the androids? Furthermore, why does the ROSAT training give such a ridiculous boost?

Because they already had plenty of time which makes using up your two days with the RoSaT totally pointless. The whole point is to use it when you need extra time. I don't think it's the RoSaT that gives the boost, but the mastering of the new Saiyan forms - outright stated by guidebooks, Super Saiyan sparring against each other is what creates the great gains.

[ABED]

The increased gravity does help further the training

[Saiga]

It does, but it only has the same amount of gravity as Kaio's. So I don't think it contributes more than other high gravity training methods.

edit: Well, combined with the other harsh conditions of the room it might. But not the gravity alone.

[ABED]

I'm aware of that, but the increased gravity did help Goku considerably in the short time he was there.

[thatdbzguy]

Let's get his thread back on track. The RoSaT can have it's own thread.

Reasons why the Cell Arc sucks:
- Trunks is a Mary-Sue
- VegetaxBulma was forced beyond all hell just to get another Saiyan in the picture
- Characters act stupider than ever before
- The Cyborgs, including Cell, are some of the most boring and bland villains in all of anime/manga
- Plot holes galore
- Whether you like the RoSaT or not, you can't deny that it's an obvious asspull
- Gohan being shoved into the spotlight so late in the arc despite doing almost nothing all throughout the beginning and middle parts of the arc feels forced
- Gohan's OOC-ness
- Piccolo's OOC-ness
- Trunks being useless after his introduction
- One-sided fights galore
- The most pitiful final fight in all of manga/anime
- #16 is a rehash of #8
- Gohan wasn't even capable of killing Cell on his own despite how this arc was supposed to set him up as the new savior of Earth
- Vegeta is at his absolute worst

[ABED]

Reasons why the Cell Arc sucks:
- Trunks is a Mary-Sue
- VegetaxBulma was forced beyond all hell just to get another Saiyan in the picture
- The Cyborgs, including Cell, are some of the most boring and bland villains in all of anime/manga
- Whether you like the RoSaT or not, you can't deny that it's an obvious asspull
- Piccolo's OOC-ness

When was Piccolo out of character?
Vegeta and Bulma was weird but she's not the most rational character on the show.
There's no denial, many don't believe the Room of Spirit and Time is an asspull.
You find Cell boring, plenty of people don't.
Trunks isn't a Mary Sue. Get off of TVtropes.com and come up with your own ideas.

[VegettoEX]

Let's get his thread back on track.

I'm not sure this is actually "back on track" so much as it is you pushing your own agenda about the Cell arc in yet another post in yet another thread.

The original question is whether or not it's the "lowest rated" saga. Instead of returning over and over to your own personal viewpoints about it, has there been enough research into actual hard evidence about worldwide TV ratings, sales figures during those respective years, etc.?