Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

But then how would that explain Super Saiyan Broly and Gogeta going at it relatively evenly despite Gogeta's base form performing similarly to SSB Goku and Vegeta individually, if not better? He was able to outpace and dodge/deflect blasts a whole lot better than them; he only didn't go on the offence.

Their even battle would suggest Super Saiyan DOES stack on Ikari. Though maybe Golden Freeza is now strong enough to make Broly put in more effort than SSB?

Base Gogeta just dodged and blocked. We have other examples where a weaker character can evade or block attacks from a stronger foe as current as the ToP arc.

We also don't have any concrete proof that Freeza surpassed Goku and Vegeta so they should be on par just like at the ToP since that was the status quo.

The thing is, we have direct comparisons to show how base Gogeta dodged and blocked compared to SSB Goku who was doing the same thing against SS Broly, and he did so as well or better with rather contemptuous ease. We also have base Vegito being able to take on Merged Zamasu from 2 arcs prior in the manga briefly who was most certainly above the standard SSB level and equal to Complete SSB.

It also simplifies matters by having their base and Super Saiyan forms being equal, with Broly having his unique Ikari-base.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Broly exits now. The prophecy [which is for the future] does not have the Saiyan Broly as a rival for Beerus but the Saiyan Goku. Broly is surpassed by Moro.

Broly existing now doesn't equate to him existing in the past lol seriously superstar, don't get desperate now. The prophecy doesn't include Broly if Akira haven't even thought of him yet lol plus remember who wrote the movie Superstar, it was Akira, and guess who wrote him to say that statement lol it was akira.

That's right, Broly isn't apart of the prophecy, Goku is.
Broly is not the one to be a formidable rival for Beerus, it is Goku.
That's because Broly is surpassed by Moro, which is a fact.

Head canon and nothing more

Read the rest of the point, your trying to argue that broly isn't apart of the project despite broly not existing at the time the statement was made. S

Thus your point is completely moot, cause after that statement, Akira bright broly back and compared him to beerus.

And if Moro is > broly, then he is > beerus. And also they said vegito was beerus tier, and 2 arcs later they had a fusion beat someone probably stronger than beerus.

You have nothing proving otherwise

[Hugo Boss]

your trying to argue that broly isn't apart of the project despite broly not existing at the time the statement was made.

I’m not sure how that makes the point invalid. The more the story progress the stronger Goku and Vegeta will get, and it’s implied that at some point both will be equally matched with Beerus. Unless you argue that Oracle Fish is somehow wrong, any character that exists between those points in the story won’t be as powerful as Goku and Vegeta will be when they reach the deadline.

[Miracles]

Broly existing now doesn't equate to him existing in the past lol seriously superstar, don't get desperate now. The prophecy doesn't include Broly if Akira haven't even thought of him yet lol plus remember who wrote the movie Superstar, it was Akira, and guess who wrote him to say that statement lol it was akira.

That's right, Broly isn't apart of the prophecy, Goku is.
Broly is not the one to be a formidable rival for Beerus, it is Goku.
That's because Broly is surpassed by Moro, which is a fact.

Head canon and nothing more

Read the rest of the point, your trying to argue that broly isn't apart of the project despite broly not existing at the time the statement was made. S

Thus your point is completely moot, cause after that statement, Akira bright broly back and compared him to beerus.

And if Moro is > broly, then he is > beerus. And also they said vegito was beerus tier, and 2 arcs later they had a fusion beat someone probably stronger than beerus.

You have nothing proving otherwise

I posted Toriyama outright saying past opponents [Broly] are "always" weaker than the current [Moro] more than once. I posted where Toriyama said Beerus is the future, not Broly. The son of Paragus is not carried with Beerus based on assumptive; non factual words like "probably." Goku and Vegeta are the ones carried since the plot has the oracle fish unequivocally say they will be the one's to be formidable for Beerus. Therefore, Broly is old news and weaker than Moro by default. Moro can not be stronger than Beerus since Toriyama moves him on with the plot, based on his own words and the Oracle fishes plot.

your trying to argue that broly isn't apart of the project despite broly not existing at the time the statement was made.

I’m not sure how that makes the point invalid. The more the story progress the stronger Goku and Vegeta will get, and it’s implied that at some point both will be equally matched with Beerus. Unless you argue that Oracle Fish is somehow wrong, any character that exists between those points in the story won’t be as powerful as Goku and Vegeta will be when they reach the deadline.

Bingo.

[FishermanJohnWest]

I posted Toriyama outright saying past opponents [Broly] are "always" weaker than the current [Moro] more than once.

Yet who did Akira have Broly scale too again ? Beerus, and has enemies gone past Beerus before ? No

if you want to think Moro > Broly that';s fine, but Akira scaled Broly to Beerus thus unless you have Moro > Beerus, he ain't > Broly

Thus this is a moot point.

I posted where Toriyama said Beerus is the future, not Broly.

Until Broly came along and Akira said he was probably stronger then Beerus

The son of Paragus is not carried with Beerus based on assumptive; non factual words like "probably."

Goku saw Beerus actions against the other destroyers, and he saw Broly, and he thinks Broly is probably stronger.

Thus unless the series says otherwise, Goku is correct

Goku and Vegeta are the ones carried since the plot has the oracle fish unequivocally say they will be the one's to be formidable for Beerus. Therefore, Broly is old news and weaker than Moro by default. Moro can not be stronger than Beerus since Toriyama moves him on with the plot, based on his own words and the Oracle fishes plot.

Your grasping on straws Superstar, you bring up the Orocle fish yet keep consistently forgetting that Broly didn't exist at that time when the fish made the predictions. Thus that entire point is moot cause the fish can't predict someone that the writer hasn't even thought of yet. Ahdn when Akira brought Broly back, he said he was probably stronger.

You got nothing at all, you rely on shit from years ago when broly didn't exist yet ignoring the fact that when broly came into the picture, Akira already gave his stance on his power.

[FishermanJohnWest]

your trying to argue that broly isn't apart of the project despite broly not existing at the time the statement was made.

I’m not sure how that makes the point invalid. The more the story progress the stronger Goku and Vegeta will get, and it’s implied that at some point both will be equally matched with Beerus.

And Broly is >>>>> both, so what does that have to do with Broly ? Broly isn't Goku or Vegeta. And Broly is said to be probably stronger based on Akira words through Goku

Unless you argue that Oracle Fish is somehow wrong, any character that exists between those points in the story won’t be as powerful as Goku and Vegeta will be when they reach the deadline.

Pure nonsense, the oracle fish can't include characters that haven't been thought of yet. Thus at that time it was Goku and Vegeta, but when Broly happened, Akira said it's Broly who is probably stronger. So you can bring the Oracle fish as much as you want, it's all moot considering Broly didn't appear before the statement but long after

[Miracles]

I posted Toriyama outright saying past opponents [Broly] are "always" weaker than the current [Moro] more than once.

Yet who did Akira have Broly scale too again ? Beerus, and has enemies gone past Beerus before ? No

if you want to think Moro > Broly that';s fine, but Akira scaled Broly to Beerus thus unless you have Moro > Beerus, he ain't > Broly

Thus this is a moot point.

I posted where Toriyama said Beerus is the future, not Broly.

Until Broly came along and Akira said he was probably stronger then Beerus

The son of Paragus is not carried with Beerus based on assumptive; non factual words like "probably."

Goku saw Beerus actions against the other destroyers, and he saw Broly, and he thinks Broly is probably stronger.

Thus unless the series says otherwise, Goku is correct

Goku and Vegeta are the ones carried since the plot has the oracle fish unequivocally say they will be the one's to be formidable for Beerus. Therefore, Broly is old news and weaker than Moro by default. Moro can not be stronger than Beerus since Toriyama moves him on with the plot, based on his own words and the Oracle fishes plot.

Your grasping on straws Superstar, you bring up the Orocle fish yet keep consistently forgetting that Broly didn't exist at that time when the fish made the predictions. Thus that entire point is moot cause the fish can't predict someone that the writer hasn't even thought of yet. Ahdn when Akira brought Broly back, he said he was probably stronger.

You got nothing at all, you rely on shit from years ago when broly didn't exist yet ignoring the fact that when broly came into the picture, Akira already gave his stance on his power.

Yes, Akira said Broly is yesterdays news now that Moro is in the picture. Further substantiated that Broly's name was never added to the oracle fish's future prediction with Goku/Vegeta becoming a rival for Beerus. This prediction encompasses other future story line enemies that weren't there either when the prophecy was said [Freeza, Black, Hit, Jiren, Broly and Moro etc].

[FishermanJohnWest]

Yes, Akira said Broly is yesterdays news now that Moro is in the picture.

False idea, considering that new enemies surpassing the old doesn't apply to those who scaled = or > Beerus like Broly, Whis etc. Just how Frieza hasn't surpassed Whis or how Whis wasn't downscaled below Beerus. So why would either Vegito, Gogeta or Broly be down scaled lol cause guys much weaker then rival Beerus lmfao, good try but not

Going further to justify this, Vegito in Black Arc = Beerus, and 2 arcs later Akira had a fusion beat someone probably > Beerus. So no, Akira ain't showing no indications of lying here lol

Further substantiated that Broly's name was never added to the oracle fish's future prediction with Goku/Vegeta becoming a rival for Beerus.

Your repeating debunked nonsense now superstar lol you just ignoring what said, plus Broly isn't Goku or Vegeta nor existed that the point the statement was made thus your point is moot. Go get a better argument superstar, your grasping on straws here.

This prediction encompasses other future story line enemies that weren't there either when the prophecy was said [Freeza, Black, Hit, Jiren, Broly and Moro etc].

Yet Akira says otherwise on that laughable head canon. Cause he brought Broly in, and he compared him to Beerus. And made no indication he was lying afterwards since no statements are made to contradict his previous point.

Get a better argument superstar, your just repeating yourself here.

[Miracles]

Yes, Akira said Broly is yesterdays news now that Moro is in the picture.

False idea, considering that new enemies surpassing the old doesn't apply to those who scaled = or > Beerus like Broly, Whis etc. Just how Frieza hasn't surpassed Whis or how Whis wasn't downscaled below Beerus. So why would either Vegito, Gogeta or Broly be down scaled lol cause guys much weaker then rival Beerus lmfao, good try but not

Going further to justify this, Vegito in Black Arc = Beerus, and 2 arcs later Akira had a fusion beat someone probably > Beerus. So no, Akira ain't showing no indications of lying here lol

Further substantiated that Broly's name was never added to the oracle fish's future prediction with Goku/Vegeta becoming a rival for Beerus.

Your repeating debunked nonsense now superstar lol you just ignoring what said, plus Broly isn't Goku or Vegeta nor existed that the point the statement was made thus your point is moot. Go get a better argument superstar, your grasping on straws here.

This prediction encompasses other future story line enemies that weren't there either when the prophecy was said [Freeza, Black, Hit, Jiren, Broly and Moro etc].

Yet Akira says otherwise on that laughable head canon. Cause he brought Broly in, and he compared him to Beerus. And made no indication he was lying afterwards since no statements are made to contradict his previous point.

Get a better argument superstar, your just repeating yourself here.

It's a fact that Moro is stronger than Broly since Broly's unclear statement concerning Beerus with "probably" was debunked by Moro's next enemy status "always" being stronger than the last. Also, Broly's name not being put in the prophecy as a contender for a future Beerus [who will also be stronger than all past opponents] along side Goku and Vegeta.

[Skar]

It's a fact that Moro is stronger than Broly since Broly's unclear statement concerning Beerus with "probably" was debunked by Moro's next enemy status "always" being stronger than the last. Also, Broly's name not being put in the prophecy as a contender for a future Beerus [who will also be stronger than all past opponents] along side Goku and Vegeta.

I don't know if it's that simple. Well it might be but it's been vague since they start comparing characters to Beerus. Blue Vegetto was thought to be as strong as Beerus, Jiren was said to be stronger than the GoDs, MUI was even higher than that, Broly was probably stronger than Beerus, Blue Gogeta was above him, and FP Moro was stronger than Omen which could mean he's around Jiren and Broly or slightly above them. I can't imagine all these statements are intended to be wrong. These statements and prophecy could still be true if Goku surpasses all these guys with a fully controlled MUI.

[Hugo Boss]

the oracle fish can't include characters that haven't been thought of yet.

Why? He is just reinforcing the same prophecy that was told in the Battle of Gods story arc and, after that point, Golden Freeza and Goku Black appeared. Now Goku is completing Ultra Instinct. If this is the deadline, this is where he is as strong as Beerus. Do you think Broli is even stronger than current Goku?

[FishermanJohnWest]

Yes, Akira said Broly is yesterdays news now that Moro is in the picture.

False idea, considering that new enemies surpassing the old doesn't apply to those who scaled = or > Beerus like Broly, Whis etc. Just how Frieza hasn't surpassed Whis or how Whis wasn't downscaled below Beerus. So why would either Vegito, Gogeta or Broly be down scaled lol cause guys much weaker then rival Beerus lmfao, good try but not

Going further to justify this, Vegito in Black Arc = Beerus, and 2 arcs later Akira had a fusion beat someone probably > Beerus. So no, Akira ain't showing no indications of lying here lol

Further substantiated that Broly's name was never added to the oracle fish's future prediction with Goku/Vegeta becoming a rival for Beerus.

Your repeating debunked nonsense now superstar lol you just ignoring what said, plus Broly isn't Goku or Vegeta nor existed that the point the statement was made thus your point is moot. Go get a better argument superstar, your grasping on straws here.

This prediction encompasses other future story line enemies that weren't there either when the prophecy was said [Freeza, Black, Hit, Jiren, Broly and Moro etc].

Yet Akira says otherwise on that laughable head canon. Cause he brought Broly in, and he compared him to Beerus. And made no indication he was lying afterwards since no statements are made to contradict his previous point.

Get a better argument superstar, your just repeating yourself here.

It's a fact that Moro is stronger than Broly since Broly's unclear statement concerning Beerus with "probably" was debunked by Moro's next enemy status "always" being stronger than the last. Also, Broly's name not being put in the prophecy as a contender for a future Beerus [who will also be stronger than all past opponents] along side Goku and Vegeta.

Next enemy status didn't matter to beerus so why would it matter to people who probably scale above him ? Being probably stronger still proves that belly is at least as strong as beerus, so once again you failed here.

Who gives a shit about the prophecy, I debunked that nonsense many times.

[Miracles]

False idea, considering that new enemies surpassing the old doesn't apply to those who scaled = or > Beerus like Broly, Whis etc. Just how Frieza hasn't surpassed Whis or how Whis wasn't downscaled below Beerus. So why would either Vegito, Gogeta or Broly be down scaled lol cause guys much weaker then rival Beerus lmfao, good try but not

Going further to justify this, Vegito in Black Arc = Beerus, and 2 arcs later Akira had a fusion beat someone probably > Beerus. So no, Akira ain't showing no indications of lying here lol



Your repeating debunked nonsense now superstar lol you just ignoring what said, plus Broly isn't Goku or Vegeta nor existed that the point the statement was made thus your point is moot. Go get a better argument superstar, your grasping on straws here.



Yet Akira says otherwise on that laughable head canon. Cause he brought Broly in, and he compared him to Beerus. And made no indication he was lying afterwards since no statements are made to contradict his previous point.

Get a better argument superstar, your just repeating yourself here.

It's a fact that Moro is stronger than Broly since Broly's unclear statement concerning Beerus with "probably" was debunked by Moro's next enemy status "always" being stronger than the last. Also, Broly's name not being put in the prophecy as a contender for a future Beerus [who will also be stronger than all past opponents] along side Goku and Vegeta.

Next enemy status didn't matter to beerus so why would it matter to people who probably scale above him ? Being probably stronger still proves that belly is at least as strong as beerus, so once again you failed here.

Who gives a shit about the prophecy, I debunked that nonsense many times.

Akira Toriyama and his story he plotted out cares about the prophecy. The Oracle fish places Beerus as a future opponent. Akira Toriyama said future opponents are "always"" stronger than past opponents. So the next enemy status does apply to Beerus. Since he is reserved to be a future opponent. Broly's non factual statement based on "probably" was debunked by Moro, as he is the current enemy and is now more powerful than Broly. Neither can be more powerful than Beerus since he is destined for a later date with Goku and Vegeta. Which means Beerus will be stronger than all the previous foes.

It's a fact that Moro is stronger than Broly since Broly's unclear statement concerning Beerus with "probably" was debunked by Moro's next enemy status "always" being stronger than the last. Also, Broly's name not being put in the prophecy as a contender for a future Beerus [who will also be stronger than all past opponents] along side Goku and Vegeta.

I don't know if it's that simple. Well it might be but it's been vague since they start comparing characters to Beerus. Blue Vegetto was thought to be as strong as Beerus, Jiren was said to be stronger than the GoDs, MUI was even higher than that, Broly was probably stronger than Beerus, Blue Gogeta was above him, and FP Moro was stronger than Omen which could mean he's around Jiren and Broly or slightly above them. I can't imagine all these statements are intended to be wrong. These statements and prophecy could still be true if Goku surpasses all these guys with a fully controlled MUI.

By definition, the assumptive theory based narratives, concerning Future Trunks arc Vegetto and Broly, in relation to Beerus can't be true. Their "comparison" to Beerus was nothing more than conjecture. Therefore those are overwritten by the fact that Toriyama's battles escalates every arc with each opponent. Moro has dethroned Broly, proving that Broly is not stronger than Beerus. Neither is Moro, since Beerus will remain a future opponent due to the prophecy and the fact that Toriyama's enemies"always" grow more powerful than the last.

[FishermanJohnWest]

the oracle fish can't include characters that haven't been thought of yet.

Why? He is just reinforcing the same prophecy that was told in the Battle of Gods story arc and, after that point, Golden Freeza and Goku Black appeared. Now Goku is completing Ultra Instinct. If this is the deadline, this is where he is as strong as Beerus. Do you think Broli is even stronger than current Goku?

Cause broly didn't exist in either of those times, and when
Akira introduced broly , he said he is probably stronger lol that's why.

And yea, it would prove that since gokunis reaching a level that has been probably surpassed by broly

[FishermanJohnWest]

Akira Toriyama and his story he plotted out cares about the prophecy.

Same Akira that introduced broly and had him scale to at least beerus level, if not probably stronger lol fail

fish places Beerus as a future opponent. Akira Toriyama said future opponents are "always"" stronger than past opponents.

And Akira compared broly to that future opponent. As well as anyone who scaled above beerus like broly and whis and go etc lol so moot point.

So the next enemy status does apply to Beerus. Since he is reserved to be a future opponent. Broly's non factual statement based on "probably" was debunked by Moro, as he is the current enemy and is now more powerful than Broly.

Probably what ? Stronger ? lmfao think about the rubbish you say before saying it. Being Probably "stronger"means Broly is at least as strong as beerus, while having a great chance of being stronger. Hence the word probably, so if Moro is > broly, then he is > beerus

Neither can be more powerful than Beerus since he is destined for a later date with Goku and Vegeta. Which means Beerus will be stronger than all the previous.

Broly or vegito or gogeta are >>>>>> Goku and Vegeta so rubbish point lol the fact that they Only reach that tier means that they dont surpass either of those 3 at all lol

Go home superstar, your head canon is purely nonsense

[Skar]

By definition, the assumptive theory based narratives, concerning Future Trunks arc Vegetto and Broly, in relation to Beerus can't be true. Their "comparison" to Beerus was nothing more than conjecture. Therefore those are overwritten by the fact that Toriyama's battles escalates every arc with each opponent. Moro has dethroned Broly, proving that Broly is not stronger than Beerus. Neither is Moro, since Beerus will remain a future opponent due to the prophecy and the fact that Toriyama's enemies"always" grow more powerful than the last.

What would be the point storywise to make a comparison to Beerus in three conservative arcs if the author intends for all of them to be false? Why wouldn't he just not include those lines?

[Polyphase Avatron]

Here's a question I was wondering about: How strong do you think the students at Tenshinhan's dojo are? (Excluding Yurin of course)

Are they just average humans who would lose to the likes of Mr. Satan? Or are they possibly early Dragonball level, knowing techniques like flight and Dodonpa? Do you think any of them could be as strong as the Crane Hermit or Taopaipai? (If not now, then potentially in the future)?

[Thani]

Here's a question I was wondering about: How strong do you think the students at Tenshinhan's dojo are? (Excluding Yurin of course)

Are they just average humans who would lose to the likes of Mr. Satan? Or are they possibly early Dragonball level, knowing techniques like flight and Dodonpa? Do you think any of them could be as strong as the Crane Hermit or Taopaipai? (If not now, then potentially in the future)?

Probably the first assumption. They can't even show an aura and seem clueless about ki.

[ZombieVito]

Here's a question I was wondering about: How strong do you think the students at Tenshinhan's dojo are? (Excluding Yurin of course)

Are they just average humans who would lose to the likes of Mr. Satan? Or are they possibly early Dragonball level, knowing techniques like flight and Dodonpa? Do you think any of them could be as strong as the Crane Hermit or Taopaipai? (If not now, then potentially in the future)?

A 5.

[DBZ Macky]

Here's a question I was wondering about: How strong do you think the students at Tenshinhan's dojo are? (Excluding Yurin of course)

Are they just average humans who would lose to the likes of Mr. Satan? Or are they possibly early Dragonball level, knowing techniques like flight and Dodonpa? Do you think any of them could be as strong as the Crane Hermit or Taopaipai? (If not now, then potentially in the future)?

IMO, they can defeat Satan's students, give a good fight to Satan himself but get easily beaten by someone like Videl.
Maybe a 5.5 in terms of power levels.

I don't think they'll ever reach Tao Pai Pai's level, but I can see them defeating the likes of Nam, Bora, and the majority of the old Red Ribbon Army after they get far enough in their training.