"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Dragon Wukong]

I just re-read the manga to clarify and you're right. But this just makes the atonement even more fucking half-arsed because, as I've said before, the Dragon Balls were right there to used for several years if Vegeta wanted to make amends with the people he murdered. This is why I don't like this "atonement", it doesn't feel genuine to begin with. It all happens out of circumstance rather than the character himself being pro-active. If the plot never called for Namek to be involved this would have never been a thing to begin with.

Vegeta's development didn't occur until much later, beyond the point where the dragon balls could actually do anything. Vegeta was effectively someone who wouldn't care until his sacrifice in the Buu saga. (In case you bring up Frieza, it couldn't restore his body, and Namekian regeneration is limited.)

The issue is that a significant part of Vegeta's character development was not allowing the past to define his future. He decided to step off that broken pedestal and try to be decent person. He's moved on from the piece of shit that he was. That doesn't mean his history should be forgotten but that also doesn't mean it should define who he is now. Because who he is now is person that goes out out of his protect his family and friends, and even extends his empathy to whole other universes.

And this is where we simply disagree. I think it's ok that this development was brought now, because it's relevant now, and seeing the Namekians he slaughtered is (in my opinion, maybe not yours) a fine excuse to shake him up and bring the discussion to the forefront about how Vegeta may feel regarding his past. And you don't think it's ok because the topic of how Vegeta feels about his past deeds isn't a continuous theme throughout the series for him. You and I (and evidently others as well) simply disagree on whether or not that constitutes "bad storytelling." I think it doesn't because of the circumstances that brought it about, but you do for reasons you've explained in a myriad of ways. Maybe we should all agree to disagree and stop writing the same things over and over in mile-long paragraphs.

[The Undying]

I'm sorry, but that's bad writing if that's the case.

I'm sorry too, because this is the part where this whole discussion starts to feel disingenuous to me.

If you don't think that the narrative itself often serves as a catalyst for how characters react and develop, I really don't know what to tell you. That's one of the most basic, fundamental principles of storytelling, and circumstances alone can comprise the entire foundation for how a character's growth is integrated into the plot. Dragon Ball is no exception; pretty much every big character moment in the series is spurred by a combination of prior experiences and situations the protagonists find themselves in.

Vegeta suddenly addressing his treatment of the Namekians, totally unprompted, totally at random, in a situation that is completely irrelevant to the Namekians themselves would undoubtedly be among some of the most atrocious writing I've ever witnessed in fiction. Of course, nothing like that would ever happen simply because stories don't really work that way. Everything needs context.

However, the real absurdity of this argument isn't even plot-related. It's behavior-related. Characters don't just randomly bring up emotional baggage out of nowhere. People in real life don't even do that. Vegeta especially doesn't do that.

Like, of all the planets for Vegeta to revisit, Namek is actually the worst because all the Namekians that Vegeta's murdered were brought back to life, so the atonement feels hollow.

This isn't even factually correct, and the atonement is there specifically because Vegeta wants to make amends with an entire species he believes he wronged in the past.

The issue is that the Namekian aren't the only planet in danger.

That's not an issue at all.

The Namekians are more relevant than other races because, out of all of Vegeta's victims, they're the only ones the audience is familiar with. They're the ones who were mercilessly slaughtered on-screen and fully represent the atrocities of his past, so it's only thematically and narratively appropriate that they're the ones Vegeta would later attempt to make amends with instead of Random Bum Planet #43.

So when Vegeta confronts Freeza again like he does in the Resurrection F arc/movie and the Universal Survival arc, he's confronting his villainous past just as much as he would be going talking to a Namekian.

No. They're not remotely comparable.

The purpose of Vegeta's encounter with Freeza in Resurrection 'F' was to demonstrate how insignificant Freeza actually was to him at that point, despite the fact that it was Freeza who had full control over his life before. Their beef in that film concerned Vegeta's subordination, not his experiences of committing genocide; the latter was something Vegeta would have enjoyed regardless of Freeza's presence. While the topic of Vegeta's baggage wouldn't have been unwelcome, it makes far less sense to have him confront that baggage if he's not explicitly confronting the people he killed. That's why it's considerably more necessary at this point than back during that story arc.

He already knows he's a morally right at heart. He's not a fucking villain.

I don't think these are mutually exclusive at all. When Vegeta describes himself as a villain, he's telling Moro (but really, the audience) that he isn't simply letting himself off the hook for his actions in the past. Other people might, but he's not. Vegeta isn't one to let others' opinions dictate how he assesses himself, and if anything, being qualified for the God ritual only enhances that point.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Next chapter is guaranteed a curb stomp on Moro's part. The Z fighters are going to their asses kicked until Goku gets his energy back and Vegeta decides its wakey wakey time.

I don't see how anyone of the B tier fighters can combat Moro at this point, they'll just kill themselves trying to fight him. Saganbo was legit paving them into the dirt after being powered up by Moro, they stood no chance against Moro even before he absorbed 7-3 in his prime. 17-18's duo attack didn't do shit to Moro, it had almost no effect on him even when they tried.

Moro will just end up flicking them away like insects without even trying. Its won't even be a fight, it'll be Gohan, Piccolo, 17-18 screaming in agony was they get demolished as Moro lazily blocks their attacks while using a small portion of his new found power send them flying.

[Lord Beerus]

Okay, I have a feeling this is going to continue endlessly, so I'll just make this comment and bow out of this debate.

Vegeta taking into consideration his past misdeeds is an interesting narrative idea. Doing it with the Namekians can work. This big problem with this how it's been handled.

It isn't subtle, nuanced or realistic at all. When you have story where the characters have easy access to a plot device that can undo damage en-masse, it doesn't help selling the genuine nature of a character contemplating his past atrocities when it's only up for discussion out the convenience of the plot rather than the character taking action for himself. It's even more jarring when considering one of the allies of the former mass murder is from the same race of the village of the people he needlessly slaughtered. Nothing was stopping Vegeta from undoing the horrible atrocities he committed on Namek against the Namekians in the years after he completed his heel-face turn in the Majin Boo arc. The story can't just bring up the notion of Vegeta feeling some kind of burden for the terrible things he did on Namek because he interacted with a Namekian... several years after he the fact, while also completely ignoring the fact he has had several interactions with a Namekian, and the thought of what he did in that Namekian village never crossed his mind in any melancholic fashion once.

Vegeta thinking he's still a terrible person (a villain) and is going to hell is the kind of introspective commentary that would have worked wonderfully if didn't diametrically oppose all the moments of Vegeta being selfless, caring and even sometimes heroic, as well being a genuinely good person, not out of obligation, but because he knew it was the right thing to do. This is where the commentary comes across as so hollow and pretentious. It doesn't want you to factor in that Vegeta has become a genuinely good hearted person or acts in a virtuous manner out of independence. It wants you to think that every noble thing Vegeta did after the blowing himself up in the Majin Boo arc essentially carried a sense of insincerity to it and that he never really learned to move on from his past and not let it define who he is, even though crux of his character arc hinged on him developing this mentality and shedding his old image.

If you want to have Vegeta question his morality and determine that he's villain bound for hell, you know, it could work. But this kind of commentary needed to be built up WAY within more modern Dragon Ball stories and it didn't get that kind of contextual narrative foundation for me not to see Vegeta's statements as anything more more arbitrary, hamfisted and contradictory. I have no interest in atonement that is rooted in narrative convenience. It just comes across as so phoney as fuck to me.

Don't @ me.

[Koitsukai]

Next chapter is guaranteed a curb stomp on Moro's part. The Z fighters are going to their asses kicked until Goku gets his energy back and Vegeta decides its wakey wakey time.

I don't see how anyone of the B tier fighters can combat Moro at this point, they'll just kill themselves trying to fight him. Saganbo was legit paving them into the dirt after being powered up by Moro, they stood no chance against Moro even before he absorbed 7-3 in his prime. 17-18's duo attack didn't do shit to Moro, it had almost no effect on him even when they tried.

Moro will just end up flicking them away like insects without even trying. Its won't even be a fight, it'll be Gohan, Piccolo, 17-18 screaming in agony was they get demolished as Moro lazily blocks their attacks while using a small portion of his new found power send them flying.

I don't think they are that cornered yet. Goku got to catch his breath a little, so he should be able to provide the teeth that will be shattered next month, and keep the Z gang safe-ish for a while.
Sure, he wasn't a match before and won't be now, but might be enough to keep Moro entertained while he tries out his new power.

Maybe they'll go down that road: have Moro try his new power, kinda like Perfect Cell.

If Moro doesn't take it easy, then I don't know, SSBE Vegeta was one-shot, if Sign is weaker than that, he shouldn't last a panel. Although he should kill Vegeta ASAP, he is the only one that can reverse his current form.

We still have that Beerus/ Merus thing going on, but it seems soon to bring them in.

[TobyS]

Although fusion would be repetitive using Gokus UI to stand up to moros power and Vegetas new technique to beat him would mean they still contributed something individually.

I wonder why the rest of the cast havent shown up to spectate or Piccolo and that having left.

Do they have any senzu. It's weird Gokus not trying to get healed.

Between Namek, that mega fused Namek, Vegeta mentioning Piccolos parts, Piccolo seemingly surpassing 17 and generally making large gains like he used to, Piccolo staying on the battlefield after his solo fight is done unlike the humans, and the namekians specifically being revived gives me some probably false hope that they will do something with Piccolo....

[LoganForkHands73]

Okay, I have a feeling this is going to continue endlessly, so I'll just make this comment and bow out of this debate.

Vegeta taking into consideration his past misdeeds is an interesting narrative idea. Doing it with the Namekians can work. This big problem with this how it's been handled.

It isn't subtle, nuanced or realistic at all. When you have story where the characters have easy access to a plot device that can undo damage en-masse, it doesn't help selling the genuine nature of a character contemplating his past atrocities when it's only up for discussion out the convenience of the plot rather than the character taking action for himself. It's even more jarring when considering one of the allies of the former mass murder is from the same race of the village of the people he needlessly slaughtered. Nothing was stopping Vegeta from undoing the horrible atrocities he committed on Namek against the Namekians in the years after he completed his heel-face turn in the Majin Boo arc. The story can't just bring up the notion of Vegeta feeling some kind of burden for the terrible things he did on Namek because he interacted with a Namekian... several years after he the fact, while also completely ignoring the fact he has had several interactions with a Namekian, and the thought of what he did in that Namekian village never crossed his mind in any melancholic fashion once.

Vegeta thinking he's still a terrible person (a villain) and is going to hell is the kind of introspective commentary that would have worked wonderfully if didn't diametrically oppose all the moments of Vegeta being selfless, caring and even sometimes heroic, as well being a genuinely good person, not out of obligation, but because he knew it was the right thing to do. This is where the commentary comes across as so hollow and pretentious. It doesn't want you to factor in that Vegeta has become a genuinely good hearted person or acts in a virtuous manner out of independence. It wants you to think that every noble thing Vegeta did after the blowing himself up in the Majin Boo arc essentially carried a sense of insincerity to it and that he never really learned to move on from his past and not let it define who he is, even though crux of his character arc hinged on him developing this mentality and shedding his old image.

If you want to have Vegeta question his morality and determine that he's villain bound for hell, you know, it could work. But this kind of commentary needed to be built up WAY within more modern Dragon Ball stories and it didn't get that kind of contextual narrative foundation for me not to see Vegeta's statements as anything more more arbitrary, hamfisted and contradictory. I have no interest in atonement that is rooted in narrative convenience. It just comes across as so phoney as fuck to me.

Don't @ me.

Well, even though you're entitled to feel this way, I feel the need to @ you anyway. Because the narrative isn't telling us that Vegeta is a bad person. Vegeta is telling us. That's what he believes. And we're obviously not supposed to fully agree with him. Piccolo literally goes on a massive, hamfisted tirade about how much Vegeta has evolved as a person. The point is that we understand where he's coming from and why he feels this way, which is evident. In hindsight, there may have been more opportunities in past stories to explore Vegeta's guilty conscience, but considering that circumstances of this specific story, this is as good a time as any to properly delve into it.

All of Vegeta's good actions throughout the franchise? Guess what, they still count! We all remember his sacrifice against Majin Buu, his pledge to save Universe 6, his acceptance of Earth as his home. Everyone knows that Vegeta is a good guy now, even the other characters know it. The point is that Vegeta still doesn't see himself as one. He slaughtered a whole village of peace-loving people - the warriors, the elders, the children too (sorry Anakin, no women) - for literally no reason and he's been forced to confront the fact that his crimes still happened, despite all of the good stuff he's done to atone for it since. Yes, he's obviously done other horrible shit in the past, but quite simply, we never saw any of it. The audience can't have as much of an emotional connection to Random Shish-kebab Alien Race #74. We know Namek and the story has happened to go there for a clear reason. The Moro arc has dallied and dithered in a lot of places, it's far from a perfect story, but the battle of New Namek which feels like a distant memory at this point is finally paying off in the narrative. Isn't that a good thing?

As for the Dragon Balls, reviving these Namekians would probably be completely unfeasible. Not only did they die decades ago, the planet they were on exploded so they don't even have bodies to bring back unlike Frieza, who at least had some meaty chunks left over. They're just atoms drifting in space. Even if he could bring them back, that doesn't erase that Vegeta killed them in cold blood and laughed about it afterwards.

As TheUndying said, stories need to give characters specific, understandable reasons and motivations in order for them to change or develop. This story has set one up and it's paying off. What would be more egregious is if, say, in the Tournament of Power Vegeta suddenly wants to revive everyone he'd ever killed. Could be a noble sign of character development, but it can't just come out of nowhere. Wanting to revive Universe 6 made sense for that particular story as he had clear motivation for doing so.

I've been angry and disappointed with the manga too, my guy. It's fine, it's far from a well-written story overall. But this one bit about Vegeta, Moro and the Namekians... in my book, it's the one spark of hope that can revitalise my interest in this story going forward.

[Koitsukai]

One more thing: wouldn't they be paving the way for MUI? It's the only way for Goku not to die with Vegeta out, and the only loose end, sort of speak.

Maybe it will even fail because it seems to be clear that Vegeta will get most of the glory

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Next chapter is guaranteed a curb stomp on Moro's part. The Z fighters are going to their asses kicked until Goku gets his energy back and Vegeta decides its wakey wakey time.

I don't see how anyone of the B tier fighters can combat Moro at this point, they'll just kill themselves trying to fight him. Saganbo was legit paving them into the dirt after being powered up by Moro, they stood no chance against Moro even before he absorbed 7-3 in his prime. 17-18's duo attack didn't do shit to Moro, it had almost no effect on him even when they tried.

Moro will just end up flicking them away like insects without even trying. Its won't even be a fight, it'll be Gohan, Piccolo, 17-18 screaming in agony was they get demolished as Moro lazily blocks their attacks while using a small portion of his new found power send them flying.

I don't think they are that cornered yet. Goku got to catch his breath a little, so he should be able to provide the teeth that will be shattered next month, and keep the Z gang safe-ish for a while.
Sure, he wasn't a match before and won't be now, but might be enough to keep Moro entertained while he tries out his new power.

Maybe they'll go down that road: have Moro try his new power, kinda like Perfect Cell.

If Moro doesn't take it easy, then I don't know, SSBE Vegeta was one-shot, if Sign is weaker than that, he shouldn't last a panel. Although he should kill Vegeta ASAP, he is the only one that can reverse his current form.

We still have that Beerus/ Merus thing going on, but it seems soon to bring them in.

Goku is still tired. I imagine him trying to hold back Moro isn't going to last long. Their only hope of not getting instantly curb stomped is that Moro will test out his power like Perfect Cell did when Vegeta and Trunks were no match for him, giving them the time not to get murdered flat out.

Though I don't see how the B tier fighters can be of much help, it would be suicide for them to fight Moro directly. Moro legit one-shotted Vegeta to go night night. What the hell can Gohan, 17-18, and Piccolo do at that point? Empowered Saganbo was wrecking a collective effort, they stand no chance against Moro.

Beerus is currently on his way to Earth, if for whatever reason Goku and Vegeta just can't kill the motherfucker even after they defuse him from 7-3, I'd rather he do his damn job and get the fuck up. I'd personally rather this arc end with a team effort kill with Vegeta leading just to not piss off the angry fans, or Beerus getting off his ass and doing something.

Merus killing himself against someone Beerus could deal with would be a dumb move.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

One more thing: wouldn't they be paving the way for MUI? It's the only way for Goku not to die with Vegeta out, and the only loose end, sort of speak.

Maybe it will even fail because it seems to be clear that Vegeta will get most of the glory

If MUI comes to play, its gonna be at the LAST FUCKING MINUTE as always, when Goku's legit knocking at death's door and realizing he's fucked. I'd rather they not make MUI look stupid by making Goku use it as he did UI. If MUI comes into play, I hope to god Goku and Vegeta to a team effort at some point to put Moro's ass to rest, maybe Goku being a distraction while Vegeta does in to defuse Moro and 7-3.

[Matches Malone]

One more thing: wouldn't they be paving the way for MUI? It's the only way for Goku not to die with Vegeta out, and the only loose end, sort of speak.

Maybe it will even fail because it seems to be clear that Vegeta will get most of the glory

I don't think they'll bring MUI into this, for 2 reasons: 1- This has been a very vegeta focused arc, so it wouldn't make much sense to force that in last minute. 2- I don't think they'll bring it back only to have it fail like Omen.

The next time we see MUI will most likely be in a Goku focused story where reaching it is the goal.

If MUI comes into play, I hope to god Goku and Vegeta to a team effort at some point to put Moro's ass to rest, maybe Goku being a distraction while Vegeta does in to defuse Moro and 7-3.

I think MUI is too big to play second place to someone else, or to be rushed at the last second. It makes more sense to wait until the next arc where it can get the whole spotlight to itself.

[Dragon Wukong]

I could see Ultra Instinct being used to fight Moro, but not being what defeats him.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Of all the things to complain about in regards to modern DB, this isn't one of them. If anything, more fans should be happy that we've finally gotten an arc that focuses on developing one of the main characters, something that's been lacking in modern DB.

I mean, in the anime at least, several of the major characters had development in the Universe Survival arc. And Trunks had development in his arc.

That and Vegeta developed in the Future Trunks Saga. By his actions, did you really need the anime to stop and tell you that Vegeta was making up being such a lousy piece of shit to Trunks in the Cell Saga.

It even had an on the nose moment where Vegeta said he was fighting Black not to avenge his lost, but to save Trunks and his world, which made Black note how that didn’t sound like a Saiyan. Heck, Vegeta also had none of his usual cockiness in that arc, which everyone noted. In fact, he was more focused than Vegeta in this chapter since he didn’t give a damn about one-upping Goku, proving he was more talented, having a fair fight, or taking the win for himself. He just wanted Black dead and didn’t really cared how it happened.

Are you sure that Vegeta put his cockiness aside in the anime Future Trunks arc?

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

I am not saying that this is a bad thing. People often confuse and think that just because he admitted that Goku was number 1 in the Boo saga, he will put aside his cockiness or the way he annoys Goku with these little comments.

The point is, we know what Vegeta is fighting for in that arc, nothing you mentioned changes that (he saying he just wanted a fair fight or saying he was more talented than Goku). As I said, it's just his usual bravado (which is sometimes too exaggerated though)

[Miracles]

One more thing: wouldn't they be paving the way for MUI? It's the only way for Goku not to die with Vegeta out, and the only loose end, sort of speak.

Maybe it will even fail because it seems to be clear that Vegeta will get most of the glory

It's very possible we see MUI. Whis did state that Goku evolves when his back is up against a wall.
If there has ever been a time for that "miracle" Whis was looking for now may be the time.

[HeroR]

I mean, in the anime at least, several of the major characters had development in the Universe Survival arc. And Trunks had development in his arc.

That and Vegeta developed in the Future Trunks Saga. By his actions, did you really need the anime to stop and tell you that Vegeta was making up being such a lousy piece of shit to Trunks in the Cell Saga.

It even had an on the nose moment where Vegeta said he was fighting Black not to avenge his lost, but to save Trunks and his world, which made Black note how that didn’t sound like a Saiyan. Heck, Vegeta also had none of his usual cockiness in that arc, which everyone noted. In fact, he was more focused than Vegeta in this chapter since he didn’t give a damn about one-upping Goku, proving he was more talented, having a fair fight, or taking the win for himself. He just wanted Black dead and didn’t really cared how it happened.

Are you sure that Vegeta put his cockiness aside in the anime Future Trunks arc?

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

I am not saying that this is a bad thing. People often confuse and think that just because he admitted that Goku was number 1 in the Boo saga, he will put aside his cockiness or the way he annoys Goku with these little comments.

The point is, we know what Vegeta is fighting for in that arc, nothing you mentioned changes that (he saying he just wanted a fair fight or saying he was more talented than Goku). As I said, it's just his usual bravado (which is sometimes too exaggerated though)

Those bouts of cockiness were flashed in the pan and at least with Black in Episode 56, he had every right to be sure that he would win since according to Trunks, Black was only comparable to Super Saiyan 3 Goku, and he had no reason to think Black would jump in power that much just from fighting Super Saiyan 2 Goku nor he would suddenly have a god form. And even Vegeta's 'I'm superior to you' line to Goku was most likely true since he had an additional six months of training that Goku didn't have and even then Vegeta said it in a matter-of-fact way with no real ego to it. So it was closer to Goku's 'I'm way stronger than you line' to Vegeta in the Cell Saga after he left the HTC.

Which is why I wrote 'none of his usual cockiness', since Vegeta's usual cockiness for me come from were he over-inflated himself and talked mad shit. In the Future Trunks Saga, he didn't really over-inflate himself since he had every reason to assumed where Black's strength lie since he saw him fighting earlier and Trunks' assessment of Black's strength. Same with him calling himself superior to Goku. And he didn't talk mad shit like he did with Moro going on and on about how Moro is going to hell and not just killing him after Jaco gave the okay. At least when he did the same thing in Resurrection 'F', his 'you're going to hell' line was literally just one line and not a speech.

[HeroR]

One more thing: wouldn't they be paving the way for MUI? It's the only way for Goku not to die with Vegeta out, and the only loose end, sort of speak.

Maybe it will even fail because it seems to be clear that Vegeta will get most of the glory

If MUI comes to play, its gonna be at the LAST FUCKING MINUTE as always, when Goku's legit knocking at death's door and realizing he's fucked. I'd rather they not make MUI look stupid by making Goku use it as he did UI. If MUI comes into play, I hope to god Goku and Vegeta to a team effort at some point to put Moro's ass to rest, maybe Goku being a distraction while Vegeta does in to defuse Moro and 7-3.

Goku being at 'death door' to activate UI is only in the anime. All times Goku activated UI in the manga, he was perfectly conscious.

[TheSaiyanGod]

One more thing: wouldn't they be paving the way for MUI? It's the only way for Goku not to die with Vegeta out, and the only loose end, sort of speak.

Maybe it will even fail because it seems to be clear that Vegeta will get most of the glory

It's very possible we see MUI. Whis did state that Goku evolves when his back is up against a wall.
If there has ever been a time for that "miracle" Whis was looking for now may be the time.

The only problem I see with this is that if the completed UI is used, Toyo would have to dedicate some chapters to this fight (in addition to the build up on top of that), and I don't see this arc extending for so long, it would be dragged . Especially since Goku probably won't defeat Moro with the MUI, which would make this appearance seem like a waste of time, as there is still Merus and Boo to do something

Those bouts of cockiness were flashed in the pan and at least with Black in Episode 56, he had every right to be sure that he would win since according to Trunks, Black was only comparable to Super Saiyan 3 Goku, and he had no reason to think Black would jump in power that much just from fighting Super Saiyan 2 Goku nor he would suddenly have a god form. And even Vegeta's 'I'm superior to you' line to Goku was most likely true since he had an additional six months of training that Goku didn't have and even then Vegeta said it in a matter-of-fact way with no real ego to it. So it was closer to Goku's 'I'm way stronger than you line' to Vegeta in the Cell Saga after he left the HTC.

Which is why I wrote 'none of his usual cockiness', since Vegeta's usual cockiness for me come from were he over-inflated himself and talked mad shit. In the Future Trunks Saga, he didn't really over-inflate himself since he had every reason to assumed where Black's strength lie since he saw him fighting earlier and Trunks' assessment of Black's strength. Same with him calling himself superior to Goku. And he didn't talk mad shit like he did with Moro going on and on about how Moro is going to hell and not just killing him after Jaco gave the okay. At least when he did the same thing in Resurrection 'F', his 'you're going to hell' line was literally just one line and not a speech.

On Black's first move, Vegeta realized that he had become much stronger after the fight against Goku (to the point of his base speed surprising him in his Blue form). Even Trunks noticed that Black was not even remotely surprised by this transformation, which should already create some suspicions in Vegeta, who did not think about it and ran screaming that he was not enough to face the SSB. Even after that, we see Vegeta being very careless when facing SSJ Rosé Black.

And in fact, at EP 63, Vegeta was stronger than Goku. I'm just saying that the fact that Vegeta makes fun of Goku in those moments doesn't change his real goal in the fight (as in the fight against Moro).
And Vegeta talking shit and not destroying Moro in the same second that he removed all the energy that the villain absorbed was just plot.

[HeroR]

One more thing: wouldn't they be paving the way for MUI? It's the only way for Goku not to die with Vegeta out, and the only loose end, sort of speak.

Maybe it will even fail because it seems to be clear that Vegeta will get most of the glory

It's very possible we see MUI. Whis did state that Goku evolves when his back is up against a wall.
If there has ever been a time for that "miracle" Whis was looking for now may be the time.

The only problem I see with this is that if the completed UI is used, Toyo would have to dedicate some chapters to this fight (in addition to the build up on top of that), and I don't see this arc extending for so long, it would be dragged . Especially since Goku probably won't defeat Moro with the MUI, which would make this appearance seem like a waste of time, as there is still Merus and Boo to do something

Those bouts of cockiness were flashed in the pan and at least with Black in Episode 56, he had every right to be sure that he would win since according to Trunks, Black was only comparable to Super Saiyan 3 Goku, and he had no reason to think Black would jump in power that much just from fighting Super Saiyan 2 Goku nor he would suddenly have a god form. And even Vegeta's 'I'm superior to you' line to Goku was most likely true since he had an additional six months of training that Goku didn't have and even then Vegeta said it in a matter-of-fact way with no real ego to it. So it was closer to Goku's 'I'm way stronger than you line' to Vegeta in the Cell Saga after he left the HTC.

Which is why I wrote 'none of his usual cockiness', since Vegeta's usual cockiness for me come from were he over-inflated himself and talked mad shit. In the Future Trunks Saga, he didn't really over-inflate himself since he had every reason to assumed where Black's strength lie since he saw him fighting earlier and Trunks' assessment of Black's strength. Same with him calling himself superior to Goku. And he didn't talk mad shit like he did with Moro going on and on about how Moro is going to hell and not just killing him after Jaco gave the okay. At least when he did the same thing in Resurrection 'F', his 'you're going to hell' line was literally just one line and not a speech.

On Black's first move, Vegeta realized that he had become much stronger after the fight against Goku (to the point of his base speed surprising him in his Blue form). Even Trunks noticed that Black was not even remotely surprised by this transformation, which should already create some suspicions in Vegeta, who did not think about it and ran screaming that he was not enough to face the SSB. Even after that, we see Vegeta being very careless when facing SSJ Rosé Black.

And in fact, at EP 63, Vegeta was stronger than Goku. I'm just saying that the fact that Vegeta makes fun of Goku in those moments doesn't change his real goal in the fight (as in the fight against Moro).
And Vegeta talking shit and not destroying Moro in the same second that he removed all the energy that the villain absorbed was just plot.

Given that Vegeta was able to land blows on Rose, he was still right that while Black got a major power-up, he still had the edge. That and I wouldn't call Vegeta getting stab careless since Vegeta's moves tend to leave him open most of the time. It's actually something intreating to realized when you watched Vegeta fight how many openings he has even on a good day.

I say maybe stronger since Goku still sole Merged Zamasu without the Kaioken and hurt him, while Vegeta and Trunks together did nothing. But that's another discussion.

Everything in fiction is plot, so saying 'something happened because of plot' is a nothing statement.

[Miracles]

One more thing: wouldn't they be paving the way for MUI? It's the only way for Goku not to die with Vegeta out, and the only loose end, sort of speak.

Maybe it will even fail because it seems to be clear that Vegeta will get most of the glory

It's very possible we see MUI. Whis did state that Goku evolves when his back is up against a wall.
If there has ever been a time for that "miracle" Whis was looking for now may be the time.

The only problem I see with this is that if the completed UI is used, Toyo would have to dedicate some chapters to this fight (in addition to the build up on top of that), and I don't see this arc extending for so long, it would be dragged . Especially since Goku probably won't defeat Moro with the MUI, which would make this appearance seem like a waste of time, as there is still Merus and Boo to do something

It's just a possibility. UI was mentioned and it created a foundation to enter the doorway when Goku was battling Moro.

[Dragon Wukong]

I'd see this fight against Moro lasting at least 2, probably 3 more chapters. Any longer than that would be dragging on, but that's enough time for a satisfying team-up against Seven-Moro that ends in a possible final bout (quite possibly with Vegeta separating them.)