Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

I already explained how Beerus' confidence doesn't mean he's stronger. Plus he could just be acting very cocky. Frost was also confident he could take on Vegeta, but very clearly that wasn't the case.

I'm saying that IF, hypothetically, we were to assume Beerus is above Jiren, then that would be a retcon. Because in both mediums it's made clear that Jiren is the mortal who surpasses the Gods of Destruction. I posted an official source from the manga that clearly states Jiren's power surpasses the Gods of Destruction.

[Thani]

I already explained how Beerus' confidence doesn't mean he's stronger. Plus he could just be acting very cocky. Frost was also confident he could take on Vegeta, but very clearly that wasn't the case.

I'm saying that IF, hypothetically, we were to assume Beerus is above Jiren, then that would be a retcon. Because in both mediums it's made clear that Jiren is the mortal who surpasses the Gods of Destruction. I posted an official source from the manga that clearly states Jiren's power surpasses the Gods of Destruction.

While I agree with you, it's also possible that they're all on the same ballpark and Beerus is confident he could end things quickly, as opposed to Goku who was just fucking around when he could have just finished things already. I think it's feasible that Beerus knows that the secret is to break Moro's head jewel, something he wouldn't hesitate in doing.

And at least in the manga, Toppo describes Jiren as

Spoiler:

So Belmod could be better than Jiren in other ways (he already has better versatility, for example, and access to destruction energy) that matters.

[TobyS]

I already explained how Beerus' confidence doesn't mean he's stronger. Plus he could just be acting very cocky. Frost was also confident he could take on Vegeta, but very clearly that wasn't the case.

I'm saying that IF, hypothetically, we were to assume Beerus is above Jiren, then that would be a retcon. Because in both mediums it's made clear that Jiren is the mortal who surpasses the Gods of Destruction. I posted an official source from the manga that clearly states Jiren's power surpasses the Gods of Destruction.

While I agree with you, it's also possible that they're all on the same ballpark and Beerus is confident he could end things quickly, as opposed to Goku who was just fucking around when he could have just finished things already. I think it's feasible that Beerus knows that the secret is to break Moro's head jewel, something he wouldn't hesitate in doing.

And at least in the manga, Toppo describes Jiren as

Spoiler:

So Belmod could be better than Jiren in other ways (he already has better versatility, for example, and access to destruction energy) that matters.

Exactly I didn't think even in anime. and explicitly not in the manga, was Jiren stronger then "any and all of the gods of destruction"

He could really be above Sidra and no one else or something.

Given how well Beerus did against all the other GoDs I think there's a massive gap between some of them.

Also his psudeo/partial UI would IMO mean he couldn't be beaten by someone like Jiren even if Jiren had more raw power/ki.

Belmod feels the need to play possum and jump whoever wins out of Beerus and Quietla.

Would be interesting to see where Jiren fits amongst the gods, I guess Above Belmod and probably Sidra because Sidra sucks.

[TobyS]

Just a friendly reminder that this guy

Spoiler:

is stronger than this guy

Spoiler:

but has been basically confirmed weaker than this guy

Spoiler:

I suppose these comparisons alone should speak for themselves: either Beerus isn't a 10 or the other Gods of Destruction are much weaker than what Toriyama or Toyotaro depicted them.

I also found this pic online, maybe someone knows where it comes from (a databook?):



Regardless, Beerus > Jiren is 100% a retcon in both mediums. Toei, Toriyama, and Toyotaro blatantly messed up, they constantly have to retcon Beerus' power to the point that he's somehow stronger than an angel apprentice.

Even that image says "is said to" like "rumoured to have". They gave themselves ample room to contradict it later if they please. Regardless, given the variance in the GoDs that statement could still be true even if he was only stronger than 2 of them. It didn't say "any of the gods of destruction"

[Thani]

I already explained how Beerus' confidence doesn't mean he's stronger. Plus he could just be acting very cocky. Frost was also confident he could take on Vegeta, but very clearly that wasn't the case.

I'm saying that IF, hypothetically, we were to assume Beerus is above Jiren, then that would be a retcon. Because in both mediums it's made clear that Jiren is the mortal who surpasses the Gods of Destruction. I posted an official source from the manga that clearly states Jiren's power surpasses the Gods of Destruction.

While I agree with you, it's also possible that they're all on the same ballpark and Beerus is confident he could end things quickly, as opposed to Goku who was just fucking around when he could have just finished things already. I think it's feasible that Beerus knows that the secret is to break Moro's head jewel, something he wouldn't hesitate in doing.

And at least in the manga, Toppo describes Jiren as

Spoiler:

So Belmod could be better than Jiren in other ways (he already has better versatility, for example, and access to destruction energy) that matters.

Exactly I didn't think even in anime. and explicitly not in the manga, was Jiren stronger then "any and all of the gods of destruction"

He could really be above Sidra and no one else or something.

Given how well Beerus did against all the other GoDs I think there's a massive gap between some of them.

Also his psudeo/partial UI would IMO mean he couldn't be beaten by someone like Jiren even if Jiren had more raw power/ki.

Belmod feels the need to play possum and jump whoever wins out of Beerus and Quietla.

Would be interesting to see where Jiren fits amongst the gods, I guess Above Belmod and probably Sidra because Sidra sucks.

But he didn't do that well. He used UI to be completely on the defensive - the moment he was grabbed, he stopped using his UI to lay a trap, hiding under Mosco while sending people against Champa. He is strong, no ifs or buts about that, but so are all the other Gods. It's no wonder that, at the end of the battle, Beerus was bruised, bloody and exhausted. Both he and Quitela were barely standing.

So I disagree that the gap is massive. Rather, imo, it's not even enough to be noticeable.

[TobyS]

Just read the drafts, Exactly where is this notion of Beerus' power being retconed is coming from?

Probably, I'd argue, people are thinking that Beerus is confident he can easily defeat Moro as he is now, which would allow him to do the same to MUI Goku and Merus.

Despite being shown last arc to fight roughly on par with the other Gods of Destruction, one of which who is confirmed weaker than Jiren, who is apparently confirmed weaker than Moro before getting Merus' UI. The same Moro who is also apparently confirmed stronger than Broly, who Goku compared to Beerus.

He's not roughly on par, there's a wide variance between them, Beerus does well keeping away from all of them and Belmod, the only one the manga explicitly says Jiren is stronger then feels the need to play possum to beat whoever wins out of Beerus and the Rat.

They are all within a similar enough ballpark their attacks can hurt each other but that bubble attack doesn't show they are all equal. Kuririn cut Freezas tail and they aren't close in power.

The fact he can do UI that well even defensively shows what a tier of martial arts mastery he is on compared to the rest, they don't use it, it wasn't an hour of them all dodging each other.

[Thani]

It's not just the card thing. Belmod's ki bubble trap was strong enough to hold all of them in place for a time as well. This is after the GP threathened them with erasure if they held back.

Sidra's barrier was strong enough to completely block a huge blast that could incapacitate someone in the GoD level - also makes sense, since Beerus wasn't holding back.

Rummush's roar completely paralysed every single GoD in the fight.

They are all able to affect one another. There can be variations in sheer power, but never to a huge amount when a fight is even.

They all did pretty good against everyone else, with Beerus and Quitela outlasting the rest. And even then, they were shown to be running on fumes. You can't have that chaotic of an even fight if the gap was this massive.

[SupremeKai25]

I already explained how Beerus' confidence doesn't mean he's stronger. Plus he could just be acting very cocky. Frost was also confident he could take on Vegeta, but very clearly that wasn't the case.

I'm saying that IF, hypothetically, we were to assume Beerus is above Jiren, then that would be a retcon. Because in both mediums it's made clear that Jiren is the mortal who surpasses the Gods of Destruction. I posted an official source from the manga that clearly states Jiren's power surpasses the Gods of Destruction.

While I agree with you, it's also possible that they're all on the same ballpark and Beerus is confident he could end things quickly, as opposed to Goku who was just fucking around when he could have just finished things already. I think it's feasible that Beerus knows that the secret is to break Moro's head jewel, something he wouldn't hesitate in doing.

But that's what I'm saying. Beerus is the only one on Earth at the time who happens to have a unique ability that quickly erases anyone from existence. He simply has a superior technique, it doesn't mean he's stronger.

It's not even a case of Goku not wanting to kill Moro, because at this point he is 100% going for the kill, but he has no attack that would be able to destroy the crystal on his head without causing the Earth to explode and the galaxy to be blown apart as a result.

[Dragon Wukong]

But that's what I'm saying. Beerus is the only one on Earth at the time who happens to have a unique ability that quickly erases anyone from existence. He simply has a superior technique, it doesn't mean he's stronger.

It's not even a case of Goku not wanting to kill Moro, because at this point he is 100% going for the kill, but he has no attack that would be able to destroy the crystal on his head without causing the Earth to explode and the galaxy to be blown apart as a result.

I hope you're not forgetting Goku also has Hakai.

I mean, he actually just used it in the previous chapter on a rock.

I highly doubt Hakai is supposed to be the answer when he's fused with the Earth.

[Thani]

But that's what I'm saying. Beerus is the only one on Earth at the time who happens to have a unique ability that quickly erases anyone from existence. He simply has a superior technique, it doesn't mean he's stronger.

It's not even a case of Goku not wanting to kill Moro, because at this point he is 100% going for the kill, but he has no attack that would be able to destroy the crystal on his head without causing the Earth to explode and the galaxy to be blown apart as a result.

I hope you're not forgetting Goku also has Hakai.

I mean, he actually just used it in the previous chapter on a rock.

I highly doubt Hakai is supposed to be the answer when he's fused with the Earth.

True, Goku can use it now, apparently.

Which is why I think it's just that Beerus knows what to do and won't hesitate to do it, unlike Goku who constantly allowed Moro do his thing in this fight.

[SupremeKai25]

But that's what I'm saying. Beerus is the only one on Earth at the time who happens to have a unique ability that quickly erases anyone from existence. He simply has a superior technique, it doesn't mean he's stronger.

It's not even a case of Goku not wanting to kill Moro, because at this point he is 100% going for the kill, but he has no attack that would be able to destroy the crystal on his head without causing the Earth to explode and the galaxy to be blown apart as a result.

I hope you're not forgetting Goku also has Hakai.

I mean, he actually just used it in the previous chapter on a rock.

I highly doubt Hakai is supposed to be the answer when he's fused with the Earth.

I already addressed it:

That doesn't mean Goku couldn't kill Moro if he wanted to, he just has no way to remove him surgically without damaging the galaxy. No, Goku's Hakai is not nearly comparable to that of a real Destroyer. Compare when Beerus erased Present Zamasu vs. when Goku tried to erase Fused Zamasu, there's no comparison. Beerus' Hakai is much faster, deadlier, and more painful.

Also, I don't remember him using hakai on that rock. Do you have a statement for that? Because I have seen many people point out that it might have just been a simple ki blast. Plus, as shown vs. Fused Zamasu, Goku needed to focus a lot to pull off an hakai, so why would he use it on a simple rock?

The reason why Hakai would work on Moro without destroying the Earth is because the Hakai affects ONLY your target. It's not a physical blast like the kamehameha, galick gun, final flash, etc., which can affect your target and the material area around said target. The Hakai is more "spiritual" you could say, in fact it literally destroys the target's soul as well (something that no normal ki blast can do). It is the most targeted attack in all of Dragon Ball. It literally ONLY affects the target and disregards anything surrounding it.

Moro is like a virus. The Hakai would target Moro and Moro alone, erasing him from existence without leaving a trace behind. Thus the virus is removed surgically. Meanwhile a ki blast like the kamehameha would affect not just Moro, but the crust of the Earth as well (because it's a physical ki blast), setting off the explosion that Whis mentioned in the previous chapter.

Using any attack but the Hakai on Moro's crystal would be the equivalent of straight up ripping out an impaled object (like a shard of glass) from a wound. It won't end well for the victim. At all.

[Dragon Wukong]

Also, I don't remember him using hakai on that rock. Do you have a statement for that? Because I have seen many people point out that it might have just been a simple ki blast. Plus, as shown vs. Fused Zamasu, Goku needed to focus a lot to pull off an hakai, so why would he use it on a simple rock?

Because no regular simple ki blast has been an invisible thing that reduces something to dust before. Toyotaro has been incredibly consistent visually on how Hakai behaves (Goku placed his open-palmed hand forward, followed by the rock simply reducing to ash without any sign of movement or momentum that is oft-shown with other invisible kiais). Showing Goku effortlessly use a technique that took so much out of him previously to do such a mundane task like free Moro trapped under a rock is an incredibly well-performed and subtle way of visual storytelling that lets the viewer know just how far Goku has come.

Your other points stand just fine theoretically so I'm not gonna argue it. Maybe Beerus could still do a hakai that somehow targets every trace of Moro within the Earth or something. In the end we don't know what Beerus was actually going to do, any suggestions are very much just assumption. You could argue Beerus' technique might still somehow be superior. But at this point it feels foolish to assume that Goku's ability to do a hakai himself would ever be in question. He had some difficulty doing it beforehand, and after getting a much stronger form it makes plenty of sense he can do it without issue now.

[FishermanJohnWest]

You can read tougher as not stronger, no problem. But you will have to ignore Goku’s explanation about how strong Moro could be if he trained, since his body could sustain that much without real effort.

Without training or absorbing energy, Moro was weak as hell, even Vegtea said his normal power was garbage

[FishermanJohnWest]

Honestly I am sick of Beerus and this subject so much

If fan service characters are the only characters comparable or superior to Beerus then DB super is just wasting everyone time

You aren't Beerus level or higher unless you fan service
No tension
No desperation
all enemies and villains are trash
all power ups are meaningless cause Beerus

hell, just look at Moro, last 4 chapters he has been nothing but a punching bag, MUI is belting him, Whis is playing with him, and Beerus can come in and easily in it .................................................

[Thani]

hell, just look at Moro, last 4 chapters he has been nothing but a punching bag, MUI is belting him, Whis is playing with him, and Beerus can come in and easily in it .................................................

To be fair, I would have no problem with that if Moro was portrayed as below the level of a God of Destruction. But he wasn't. He was made to be stronger than Jiren and Broly, which should put him above Beerus, logically, so it's really upsetting when he's suddenly "not a threat" for him. Although, to be fair, we should wait the chapter to see how the scene goes.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Honestly I am sick of Beerus and this subject so much

If fan service characters are the only characters comparable or superior to Beerus then DB super is just wasting everyone time

You aren't Beerus level or higher unless you fan service
No tension
No desperation
all enemies and villains are trash
all power ups are meaningless cause Beerus

hell, just look at Moro, last 4 chapters he has been nothing but a punching bag, MUI is belting him, Whis is playing with him, and Beerus can come in and easily in it .................................................

Yeah, whenever Whis & Beerus are around for a major battle, all tension is gone cuz u know these guys can just jump in and clear house.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Beerus turn out to be near Whis strength lol. I mean Goku is already high God tier, idk what else he has to do to be a rival for Beerus even tho he should be by now.

[Hugo Boss]

You can read tougher as not stronger, no problem. But you will have to ignore Goku’s explanation about how strong Moro could be if he trained, since his body could sustain that much without real effort.

Without training or absorbing energy, Moro was weak as hell, even Vegeta said his normal power was garbage

Compared to what he can be, maybe, but that’s not what Goku was talking about. The level of power that Moro can naturally sustain is very high. In another hand, you have Jiren who dedicated his life to training in order to be that strong. Goku basically thought about that. If Moro trained, like Freeza for example, he could possibly surpass Merus.

[FishermanJohnWest]

the chapter confirms that Moro73 who fought Merus was > Moro73 who fought Goku MUI

Whis: Goku... In order to stop Moro you must once more destroy the crystal on his head and erase Merus's power.
Goku: Destroy the crystal?! Just like Merus did?
Whis: Yes. If it all goes well then you can just destroy Moro and save the Earth.

So Moro73 who one-shot Omen > moro73 who got beaten up by MUI

seems like MUI ain't as big as we thought

[FishermanJohnWest]

You can read tougher as not stronger, no problem. But you will have to ignore Goku’s explanation about how strong Moro could be if he trained, since his body could sustain that much without real effort.

Without training or absorbing energy, Moro was weak as hell, even Vegeta said his normal power was garbage

Compared to what he can be, maybe, but that’s not what Goku was talking about. The level of power that Moro can naturally sustain is very high. In another hand, you have Jiren who dedicated his life to training in order to be that strong. Goku basically thought about that. If Moro trained, like Freeza for example, he could possibly surpass Merus.

But then the tough statement wouldn't really apply to power then cause Goku is referencing Moro natural power and what he can possibly be yet his natural power is just trash to other characters who Goku fought previously. For Goku to feel it's such a shame, yet knows that their is people who are > Moro naturally is confusing.

Who knows, we will see in the future I guess, Moro also uses the word tough in correlation to his body sustaining the power so who knows

[Thani]

the chapter confirms that Moro73 who fought Merus was > Moro73 who fought Goku MUI

Whis: Goku... In order to stop Moro you must once more destroy the crystal on his head and erase Merus's power.
Goku: Destroy the crystal?! Just like Merus did?
Whis: Yes. If it all goes well then you can just destroy Moro and save the Earth.

So Moro73 who one-shot Omen > moro73 who got beaten up by MUI

seems like MUI ain't as big as we thought

Wait, how is that confirmation?