Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 18 - Official Discussion Thread

[Izanagi]

SSB? No buildup, just "We combined SSJ with God Ki, deal with it."

SSJ3: "I trained 7 years off-screen and got this new form, off-screen, deal with it."

You lose me here.

Either way, SSJ4 doesn't need foreshadowing in the context of Daima. We should already expect surprises and things out of the blue from a show centred around magicians and weird demon magic. Magic is unpredictable and mysterious.

Dude, I never defended SSJ3's lack of foreshadowing. I even admitted it lacked buildup. You're acting like finding one example of poor writing in DBZ invalidates all of DBZ’s structured buildups. But one bad example doesn’t erase all the other good ones (SSJ1, SSJ2, Majin Vegeta).

Also, just because a show involves magic doesn’t mean anything can happen without setup. Good fantasy stories still follow internal logic. Harry Potter has magic, but spells still require rules. The Lord of the Rings has magic, but Gandalf doesn’t just randomly turn into a dragon for no reason.

Dragon Ball has always treated transformations as power-ups earned through training or extreme circumstances. Suddenly handing out new forms with zero buildup cheapens their impact.

If transformations can just happen whenever, then what’s the point of training? If new forms are just handed out, why should the audience care about the journey? If nothing is earned, then nothing matters.

[QuakingStar]

Beast? Pulled out of thin air with zero training or progression. Gohan can slack off for months and still end being the strongest if he gets a little more angry.

I will never understand this complaint people have with Gohan.

Did you not see him at age four surpass his father (with over a decade of training) just because he got scared?

Ikr? Whis and Goku both literally say Gohan is unique in the last two chapters, to top it all off. The only one even comparable to Gohan is Broly and they did that in the chapter as well. I don't know why people have such a hard time grasping this.

[SupremeKai25]

If transformations can just happen whenever, then what’s the point of training? If new forms are just handed out, why should the audience care about the journey? If nothing is earned, then nothing matters.

You said that forms should be taken only after terrible hardships, you do realize that Goku was pummelled and beaten to a pulp by Gomah, right? You even singled out SSG and Ultra Instinct, all forms that Goku achieved only after getting stomped (SSG) or training for 4 ARCS (Ultra Instinct).

Besides, even if this form was being handed out for free, it wouldn't be setting any precedent. That precedent would have already been set by Bulma 30 years ago when she asspulled some stupid machine that gifted Baby/Vegeta with SSJ4. Anyway, this form is activated by Neva's magic and the Demon Realm, so this is a special form that has no bearing on anything that will happen in the future. It's not setting any precedent.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

In short, every issue you could find in modern Dragon Ball was already found in the old series.

Let's say for argument sake that this is true, shouldn't modern DB have learned from these alleged issues found in its 40+ year old counterpart ? I've always believed that Goten and Trunks shouldn't have gotten Ssj as easy as they did, so shouldn't it also be an issue that Cabba and Caulifla also got it easily ? I'd argue that it's worse this time around because they should've learned from their previous mistake with Goten and Trunks.

[SupremeKai25]

In short, every issue you could find in modern Dragon Ball was already found in the old series.

Let's say for argument sake that this is true, shouldn't modern DB have learned from these alleged issues found in its 40+ year old counterpart ? I've always believed that Goten and Trunks shouldn't have gotten Ssj as easy as they did, so shouldn't it also be an issue that Cabba and Caulifla also got it easily ? I'd argue that it's worse this time around because they should've learned from their previous mistake with Goten and Trunks.

Uhm, we still live in a capitalist society driven by profit, so no. It was profitable 30 years ago to make Super Saiyan kids to sell new figurines/toys and it's still profitable now. Not sure why you think Toei should stop speaking the language of money just because it's been 30 years.

You do realize that Vegeta getting SSJ4 in GT was actually unearned, right? Bro literally went through 0 training/hardship and just asked Bulma to make him the bullshit machine that hands out SSJ4 for free (so they could conveniently fuse and make SSJ4 Gogeta toys).

I better not be seeing people complain about Vegeta getting SSJ4 and the fusion bugs next week because this literally all happened 30 years ago in GT.

[Eminence]

In short, every issue you could find in modern Dragon Ball was already found in the old series.

Let's say for argument sake that this is true, shouldn't modern DB have learned from these alleged issues found in its 40+ year old counterpart ? I've always believed that Goten and Trunks shouldn't have gotten Ssj as easy as they did, so shouldn't it also be an issue that Cabba and Caulifla also got it easily ? I'd argue that it's worse this time around because they should've learned from their previous mistake with Goten and Trunks.

Uhm, we still live in a capitalist society driven by profit, so no. It was profitable 30 years ago to make Super Saiyan kids to sell new figurines/toys and it's still profitable now. Not sure why you think Toei should stop speaking the language of money just because it's been 30 years.

You do realize that Vegeta getting SSJ4 in GT was actually unearned, right? Bro literally went through 0 training/hardship and just asked Bulma to make him the bullshit machine that hands out SSJ4 for free (so they could conveniently fuse and make SSJ4 Gogeta toys).

I better not be seeing people complain about Vegeta getting SSJ4 and the fusion bugs next week because this literally all happened 30 years ago in GT.

To be fair, the fusion bugs were set up, i'd be surprised if those weren't used. I'd be surprised if Vegeta doesn't get his power up too. Vegeta getting SSJ4 in GT was strange with that machine lol, i didn't like that either. I liked his design though.

[sunsetshimmer]

Lack of foreshadowing itself totally isn't a bad thing by itself. It's all about everything that come around it.

New SSJ4 unlike original doesn't feel earned in any way. But at least it's not completely random like Beast (about which i will speak later). It's more like Orange Piccolo, which was dumb and lazy, but got some explanation - it was granted by magic. That's enough. Lazy approach, but one that make sense.

SSJ3 had no foreshadowing but it felt earned cause Goku trained hard for years in afterlife. It also wasn't NEW form. It was evolution of already established form. It also came in good moment. Not to randomly appear and just destroy Buu. And even though it was heavily wasted in Z and all sequels, it still got some use here and there, wasn't totally abandoned.

Now let's compare that to Beast, another form with no foreshadowing. Does it feel earned? Hell no. Gohan admitted he trained a bit in secret. Yes, a bit. He just regained his ultimate few minutes earlier. But now he randomly gets new form, just in time to beat Cell Max. Not granted by anyone. Not trained by him. Not planned by him. It just appeared out of nowhere, literally. Gohan didn't know he could ever turn into that...thing. We might not even see it again, who knows.

Another problem. What is Beast? For now we have no explanation. it might change in future. But for now...Is it a saiyan form? Is it a human form? Half-saiyan form? How to get it exactly? Who can get it? Can anyone else get it? Is it connected to SSJ? Until Beast, i don't remember anyone ever literally creating new form. Even such dumb form as SSJBE ties back to saiyan genes, cause it's evolution of form that is a mix of SSJ and god ki.

So yeah, there is totally a difference between something like SSJ3, that was not foreshadowed, but was a good surprise, felt earned and had rational in-lore explanation for its existence and something like Beast, that was literally just a lazy fanservice, serving no other real purpose.

The only logical explanation for Beast would be some kind of mutation of SSJ line that exists due to mix of saiyan and earthling blood. Kinda like Baby Vegeta and Goku Black with their respective forms.

You do realize that Vegeta getting SSJ4 in GT was actually unearned, right? Bro literally went through 0 training/hardship and just asked Bulma to make him the bullshit machine that hands out SSJ4 for free (so they could conveniently fuse and make SSJ4 Gogeta toys).

Machine that turns into SSJ4 never existed in first place. Vegeta reached SSJ4 on his own. Unlike Goku. Machine only turned him into Oozaru and nothing else. Something that he would do on his own as well if he had a tail. Also he didn't ask Bulma, that was her idea. He was shown training before as well and without training he would not turn SSJ4, with machine or not.

SSJ4 Vegeta serving any real purpose is another topic cause yeah, he got it mostly so we could get Gogeta. But calling it unearned is a bit stretch. it wasn't the most earned form we saw for sure, but still more earned than some other forms we got in franchise, like two forms i already mentioned before - Baby Vegeta's "SSJ White" and Goku Black's SSJ Rose. None of these were earned in any way. Both literally got them by stealing bodies in one of another way.

[ZombieVito]

Ikr? Whis and Goku both literally say Gohan is unique in the last two chapters, to top it all off. The only one even comparable to Gohan is Broly and they did that in the chapter as well. I don't know why people have such a hard time grasping this.

Gohan's entire character from day 1 is that he is a mutant that doesn't like to fight but can surpass everyone if he gets mad enough. People having a problem with Beast but not his Z power ups are just blinded by nostalgia.

[Cursed Lemon]

SSJ3 and Gohan's mystic powerup were, in fact, bad storytelling. They're iconic in spite of that because of the inertia of two prior well-put-together sags as well as DBZ cementing the transformation trope into shounen's DNA.

Let's remember, mystic Gohan was completely wasted and SSJ3 literally didn't win a canon fight for two decades or whatever.

[Rory]

Well I guess I was wrong, Daima fell off. Everything after the first Tamagotchi fight has been a slow and steady decline in terms of narrative and now we just have SS4 again cause why not.
Nice to have something to enjoy for a few weeks, shame it couldn't have kept things going though. At least it's a visual treat, shame they couldn't have just spent a bit more time ironing out the story before animating.

[JulieYBM]

Super Saiyan 3 was also literally just tossed out to be used with the barest of minimal in-story explanations, something that hasn't even provided for Super Saiyan 4 yet, despite the fact that it could and should have had a quick line from Neva about what he was doing.

[The Monkey King]

Gohan's entire character from day 1 is that he is a mutant that doesn't like to fight but can surpass everyone if he gets mad enough.

The issue with Beast is that you can't let a genie out of its bottle twice. Toriyama already gave Gohan a transformation which paid off all of his rage boosts during the Cell Games.

It's why he had no more rage boost transformations in the Buu saga, it became a plot point that he couldn't when he fought Dabura and why Toriyama decided to have his potential unlocked... but beyond his limits or whatever.

Even in BoG and RoF there were no allusions to Gohan still having this massive latent potential ready to be awakened by rage, hell Vegeta stole Gohan's rage boosting gimmick with the "My Bulma!" scene in BoG.

In the Moro arc Gohan had a rage boost, but it didn't do jackshit.

Spoiler:

Beast Gohan is just lazy beyond words can describe, a true Jump the Shark moment, there's nothing interesting or narratively satisfying about it. It's supposed to be the culmination of Gohan getting rid of his laziness and complacency. But Beast in of itself contradicts this plot point. Gohan didn't need to train at all, a couple rage boosts and he's the strongest character in the series again.

The RRA creating more androids does nothing to justify the transformation on a deeper narrative level, it's underwhelming story telling.

This is unlike the build up to super saiyan 1 and 2 from the original series. SSJ1 is portrayed as the pinnacle of what it means to be a cruel, bloodthirsty saiyan warrior, the only thing that can defeat Freeza the tyrant who wiped out most of the saiyans because he feared the super saiyan. The story foreshadows that Goku will achieve it, but he may have to sacrifice who he is in order to do so. That's why Goku's speech to Freeza is so iconic, he did awaken the form due to anger and violence but his heart is still pure. He is the super saiyan but he is still Son Goku not Kakarot.

SSJ2 isn't as well done but it comes at the conclusion of an arc that began with the Son of Vegeta killing Freeza, it's an arc setting up the next generation of saiyan defenders of Earth. The androids of the RRA leave the saiyans no choice but to truly surpass the SSJ level, as foreshadowed since he headbutted Raditz this saiyan is going to be the son of Goku.

Even the other ascended saiyan forms speak to the nature of the characters. Trunks using Grade III represents his inexperience and naivety, Vegeta using Grade II represents that he may not be as talented as Goku but he's still a pragmatic fighter as Cell praises him for not even attempting to use the useless Grade III form, Goku using Grade IV shows just how much of a martial arts genius he is. He's taken the wild super saiyan form and combined it with the martial arts mastery and philosophy he learnt on Earth.

SSJ3 was a lolBuuSaga asspull but it wasn't even too relevant in defeating Kid Buu, it wasn't given that reward because it didn't deserve it, it had no further narrative ties to the Buu saga as a whole (but maybe it did considering how much of a mess that arc was lol)

People having a problem with Beast but not his Z power ups are just blinded by nostalgia.

You saying this in defence of the most nostalgia baiting transformation in DB history is fucking hilarious

[QuakingStar]

Except you miss Vegeta and Piccolo each saying in Super that Gohan has more potential than them all, and then in the ToP when Gohan says he is aiming for a form of his own, different than the path his father took. Toriyama himself also gives a brief explanation of them form albeit more detail would have been nice for it.

[The Monkey King]

Except you miss Vegeta and Piccolo each saying in Super that Gohan has more potential than them all

And you missed the part where I said:

Even in BoG and RoF there were no allusions to Gohan still having this massive latent potential ready to be awakened by rage

Before Super Hero no one counted on Gohan getting a massive rage boost power up, Vegeta's statement mentioned nothing about how Gohan would access said potential.

Before the ToP Piccolo trained Gohan to whip him back into shape, he didn't make any plans to emotionally manipulate him like he did in Super Hero.

and then in the ToP when Gohan says he is aiming for a form of his own, different than the path his father took.

Gohan stated he was aiming for a transformation beyond ultimate.

Spoiler:

But Super Hero contradicts this as it shows Gohan being a lazy, complacent dickhead who has made no progress in working on a new transformation.

Gohan's statement in the manga is that he "won't rely on his saiyan blood anymore", which is also contradicted by Super Hero as Gohan resorts to using his SSJ transformation again and Beast Gohan is based on his rage boosts that he gets because he's half saiyan

Spoiler:

Toriyama himself also gives a brief explanation of them form albeit more detail would have been nice for it.

Toriyama himself explains why Beast is a blatant SSJ2 rehash asspull. It's as I said before

The issue with Beast is that you can't let a genie out of its bottle twice. Toriyama already gave Gohan a transformation which paid off all of his rage boosts during the Cell Games.

There is nothing of substance to Beast at all. It's just lazy.

[QuakingStar]

Yeah and that's your opinion and nothing more. Super Saiyan Blue was lazy and came out of nowhere when he fought Frieza again. Goku is shown for the first time using SUPER SAIYAN, but BLUE against of all people Final Form FRIEZA.

Ultra Instinct is just Super Saiyan God but Silver.

Let's also not forget Goku used a damn ritual to get Super Saiyan God.

Beast is unique to Gohan and it's an evolution of his Ultimate State, which is a state that already was functioning off of his own inner power and potental. Beast is just that but far better.

Not liking Beast is fair, but there are plenty of people who do like it me included. I don't like Super Saiyan, but BLUE, and I don't like Super Saiyan God, but SILVER either.

[Supersaiyan69]

How about you all just enjoy the series for what it is?
Honestly either enjoy it or go write your own story lol.

[JulieYBM]

How about you all just enjoy the series for what it is?
Honestly either enjoy it or go write your own story lol.

As someone who writes her own stories: how are we as creative people supposed to improve if criticism is not allowed? Criticism and analysis of art is the bedrock of discussion and improving the arts.

[fadeddreams5]

Beast? Pulled out of thin air with zero training or progression. Gohan can slack off for months and still end being the strongest if he gets a little more angry.

I will never understand this complaint people have with Gohan.

Did you not see him at age four surpass his father (with over a decade of training) just because he got scared?

Well, for one, his hidden power arc already concluded with Cell. Secondly, the execution was extremely lazy, borrowing heavily from the SSJ2 moments. I have no problem with the form or how it appears, but adding more build-up, details, and context would have gone a long way. Lastly, and most importantly, the power scaling is absurd. Like... really, really absurd, even in comparison to his previous rage boosts, which were only temporary anyways. Ultimate Gohan alone shouldn't be close to SSJB level, considering he never received any special God training from Whis, but this form put him on par with an experienced Ultra Instinct Goku. Again, this is an extremely lazy way to have him catch up, UNLESS more details were given as to why he's capable of overpowering everyone. Maybe he's like a human spirit bomb, unconsciously absorbing life energy of those around him when he's angry, which is why he's always able to surpass people. Give me something.

Instead, they just made him go angry because that is something DBZ fans remember, but, but... nobody actually died prior to this because that would be too dark for modern DB. And the reason the form looks like SSJ2 Gohan is because, well--there's no reason he looks like this. Nope. It just looks cool like SSJ2 Gohan. . And they made him capable of tapping into the form at will and catch up to Goku because now they can milk his uber coolness.

How about you all just enjoy the series for what it is?
Honestly either enjoy it or go write your own story lol.

Bruddah, the reason I'm a user here is to discuss the series, whether that is praising moments I like or criticizing the ones I don't, as well as sharing input over how I would improve XYZ. It's fun. If I just enjoy it because it's Dragon Ball and written by Toriyama, there's not much to write here. "Yay, SSJ4!! xoxo" That's it. lol.

[AliTheZombie13]

How about you all just enjoy the series for what it is?
Honestly either enjoy it or go write your own story lol.

Believe it or not, I'm writing my own stories.
Every single day when I send a new idea, my "editor" tells me it sucks and needs to be refined.
And we keep repeating that for days until he finally tells me, "Ooh, I like it. Let's put it into drawing!"

And guess what? Dragon Ball as a whole, especially Daima recently, has given me plenty pointers on what to do and what to avoid doing.
The lack of a strong editor is very apparent in these past modern productions.

It never ceases to amaze me how this franchise, whose main message is "You should always strive to be better!" Can have a fanbase where fans tell other fans they should just shut up and settle for stale mediocrity when it has already proven it can absolutely be better than this.

[Galan007]

How powerful is Neva? This Namekian:

1) Created the Dragonballs in the Demon realm.
2) Created the Tamogami's, and can give them power ups
3) Restore other Dragonballs that are already turned to stone and activate the Dragon at his will
4) Unlock Goku's Super Saiyan 4 form, I believe he can also unlock a fighter's potential, similar to Elder Guru.

This is a sorcerer the likes of which we have never ever seen in Dragonball; no one comes that close not including the Zeno's. I wonder how they explain his absence in Super, he's super helpful during a major battle. Wouldn't be surprised if he can heal too.

To date, Neva has:
1.) Whimsically created the Demon Realm DBs as a thank you gift to his people.
1a.) Makai Porunga(the Dragon Neva created) is immensely powerful outside of 'just' the ability to grant high-end wishes, as he effortlessly stopped Gomah's attack with one finger, then just flicked him away like a powerless feeb. It really is a very impressive showing for the Dragon, tbh, considering Gomah is > SS4... This is [potentially] an insane reflection of Neva's personal power as well, but that's neither here nor there. /shrug
2.) Created the three Tamagamis to guard the Demon Realm DBs(even the weakest Tamagami[#3] > Dabura.)
2a.) Was able to amp Tamagami #2 on the fly(skyrocketing its power to > Boo-era SS2-level.)
3.) Created barriers which prevented travel between the Demon Worlds(a feat that, per Piccolo, NO Namekian could replicate.)
3a.) Was able to remove said barriers at-will.
4.) Showed far more mastery over Earth's DBs than any 'Kami' ever has.
5.) Empowered Goku to unlock SS4.

tl;dr
Neva's magics are stupidly OP, even by DB standards. The guy is essentially just a walking plot-device.