Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

I don’t quite agree with that. If it’s only a power contest, Goku and Vegeta should be stronger than Goku Black. He was pressuring them before because he had an infinite supply of doppelgängers. That’s the way he figured he could deal with them, avoiding close combat. If Merged Zamas was overpowered by Goku in a power struggle, that only supports his power advantage. He sacrificed his body to accomplish that feat, so it makes sense. It’s even implied that if Goku Black alone has received that attack he would be vaporized, but the other half Zamas’ durability kept them alive.

Goku Black wasn't avoiding close combat because he was afraid of Goku and Vegeta, he was avoiding close combat because he first wanted Goku and Vegeta to get stronger, making him stronger as a result. Hence why he also sent Future Zamasu to kill all of Goku's and Vegeta's loved ones, to make them mad. Black was just playing with them, he was willingly holding back for the sake of his plans. He even told them that he'd fight them only AFTER they got mad from the deaths of their loved ones. Because Black knows that the bigger the beat-up he gets, the bigger the ensuing Zenkai boost.

It’s even implied that if Goku Black alone has received that attack he would be vaporized

And that's why it will always be a garbage scene. Black the one who repeatedly oneshot Goku, shouldn't logically be oneshot by Goku in any possible way:



And by the way Goku didn't even train in the chamber like Vegeta, meaning that he logically didn't get stronger after getting oneshot twice by Black...

Black was repeatedly shown as above the Saiyans, the writers even said that he was the strongest non-fused, non-GoD character. Making him superior to Goku and Vegeta.

So then tell me how logically it makes sense that Goku could pulverize someone who repeatedly oneshot him like fodder?

[ZombieVito]

It's important to note that Hit's handicap was just his assassination techniques. He wasn't getting stronger or anything, just more dangerous.

That’s right. But the point is that with said techniques he would be able to defeat Goku. Actually, that’s the reason Goku forfeit. When they had a second match, Hit was implied to be way more difficult to approach with his assassin moves than he was in their first match with only time-skip.

Goku injuring Fused Zamasu with the Kamehameha is BS, let's be real. We've been saying this since 2016. Goku who was way weaker than Black had no business fighting Fused Zamasu, and he even got oneshot twice in ep. 65, but since he is the main character...

I don’t quite agree with that. If it’s only a power contest, Goku and Vegeta should be stronger than Goku Black. He was pressuring them before because he had an infinite supply of doppelgängers. That’s the way he figured he could deal with them, avoiding close combat. If Merged Zamas was overpowered by Goku in a power struggle, that only supports his power advantage. He sacrificed his body to accomplish that feat, so it makes sense. It’s even implied that if Goku Black alone has received that attack he would be vaporized, but the other half Zamas’ durability kept them alive.

No. Goku Black is stronger.

He literally tells them that he's waiting for them to get stronger by getting mad while fighting his clones so he in turn can get stronger. The dialogue doesn't work if he's weaker than Goku and Vegeta.

Gowasu also says Goku Black is the strongest in episode 65.

[Miracles]

Ah, I see so the discussion is if Hit's time skip would work on Black. I don't think so. Since Vegeta needed one year of training in the ROS&T to even defeat Black in both anime and manga. This is after the U6 arc where Goku and Vegeta trained for three years in the ROS&T for that tournament. A year's difference is too much of a power gap for Hit from U6 to matter in any way.

Goku in the anime had enough power to overpower fused Zamas.
Goku in the manga had enough power to rival fused Zamas.

I'm still not understanding how you guys think Hit wasn't surpassed in the Future Trunks arc?

To be fair, Hit in both the manga and the anime fared better against Jiren than Goku at his strongest (not including Ultra Instinct Sign). So whatever training he did before the ToP can likely be said to have brought him up to par if not stronger than Goku.

In fact I'd go as far as to say that if Goku and Hit had a one on one rematch in the ToP Goku would've been on the backfoot unless he could awaken Ultra Instinct. Which likely wouldn't happen in the anime since the difficulty with Hit was never pure strength and power, which is what awakened Ultra Instinct in Goku.

I find that hard to believe when Hit was getting bodied by a Dyspo who was holding back tremendously. Goku casually handled that Dyspo when switching from red to blue for a moment. Naturally Goku did better against Jiren than Hit, since he was stronger. Goku took all Jiren's special attacks and still had more than enough power to make a genki dama. Hit was out of commission when Jiren hit him with eye blasts and set him packing with the "it's over" finishing move.

[SupremeKai25]

Also Goku Black has the Time Ring... that divine artifact clearly grants him some degree of control and immunity over any change or mutation in the normal flow of time. This is evidenced by the fact that Black wasn't erased when Beerus destroyed his counterpart Present Zamasu, which was because the Time Ring protected him from any change happening in the past (being erased by Beerus in the past should have "killed" him in the Future too, but that didn't happen thanks to Time Ring).

So I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Time Ring somehow allowed Black to resist and counter Hit's Time Skip.

[ZombieVito]

I don't think Black can defeat Hit's time skip without Kaioken but he would try and predict it like Goku did and maybe get stronger while taking damage.

At the end of the day he can always fuse and beat Hit. There's no way Hit can defeat that Zamasu.

[Miracles]

But Hit's timeskip does not work on opponents stronger than Him. In both the anime and manga. So how can Black be affected by it?

[Koitsukai]

Hit's time skip worked perfectly against SSB Vegeta who should've been at least relative to Goku, and it even worked while holding back and not going for the kill. Unless the enemy knows about the time skip, and Goku only knew about it because of Jaco and that octopus guy, without their help he would've been as lost as Vegeta.

In the anime, the technique can be improved to even work against a 10x stronger Goku.

[ZombieVito]

But Hit's timeskip does not work on opponents stronger than Him. In both the anime and manga. So how can Black be affected by it?

Black isn't 10 times stronger than Hit.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Some people are forgetting that after the Future Trunks arc in the anime, Goku explicitly says that Hit's Time Skip would no longer work on him, and Hit agrees. At the end of the fight Goku even breaks the technique with raw power alone and both end in a draw. And previously Hit's TS had worked against SSB KK X10 during the Champa tournament, which means that during that gap Goku became at least 10x stronger. Yes, it was a "filler" episode but it is considered for the continuity of the anime anyway.

About Black, he may have been stronger than Goku / Vegeta before the fusion but those clones he showed are just fodder for SSB tier characters. They don't have any resistance (since they were defeated with simple blows, the real problem was that they kept showing up) and they basically couldn't scratch the Saiyan duo. For some reason even after that, both were confident of defeating Black and Zamasu. Goku's feats against Merged Zamasu later also kind of play against the notion of Black being stronger (especially if Goku can use Kaioken)

[Dragon Wukong]

I feel like people forget that Goku Black's body is basically just a post-U6 Goku who can't use the Kaioken.

Like, yeah he has all that potential, but one-on-one it's not like he absolute demolishes Goku or Vegeta. (Before pulling up gifs of Goku Black blasting Goku, please note he still didn't manage to kill him.) It's telling that after one day in the HTC Vegeta was able to bring him down until the rift-hax, which as other people have pointed out isn't even him fighting directly.

[ZombieVito]

Some people are forgetting that after the Future Trunks arc in the anime, Goku explicitly says that Hit's Time Skip would no longer work on him, and Hit agrees. At the end of the fight Goku even breaks the technique with raw power alone and both end in a draw. And previously Hit's TS had worked against SSB KK X10 during the Champa tournament, which means that during that gap Goku became at least 10x stronger. Yes, it was a "filler" episode but it is considered for the continuity of the anime anyway.

About Black, he may have been stronger than Goku / Vegeta before the fusion but those clones he showed are just fodder for SSB tier characters. They don't have any resistance (since they were defeated with simple blows, the real problem was that they kept showing up) and they basically couldn't scratch the Saiyan duo. For some reason even after that, both were confident of defeating Black and Zamasu. Goku's feats against Merged Zamasu later also kind of play against the notion of Black being stronger (especially if Goku can use Kaioken)

That doesn't necessarily mean he was ten times stronger. Goku never said he won't use Kaioken to stop the time skip. He can also still try and predict it.

It was the old trope of "you can't use the same technique with me twice" that other shonen use.

And Goku didn't overpower the time skip at the end, it was a different technique. Also even if that technique and the time skip work by the same logic, Goku used a full power Kamehameha that has amplication, which is the same as Kaioken in a sense.

I feel like people forget that Goku Black's body is basically just a post-U6 Goku who can't use the Kaioken.

Like, yeah he has all that potential, but one-on-one it's not like he absolute demolishes Goku or Vegeta. (Before pulling up gifs of Goku Black blasting Goku, please note he still didn't manage to kill him.) It's telling that after one day in the HTC Vegeta was able to bring him down until the rift-hax, which as other people have pointed out isn't even him fighting directly.

Goku Black explained why Vegeta made a big power jump in a small timeframe: Anger.

He uses the same principle and grows stronger too, surpassing Vegeta.

[Miracles]

But Hit's timeskip does not work on opponents stronger than Him. In both the anime and manga. So how can Black be affected by it?

Black isn't 10 times stronger than Hit.

You are right. Black is much stronger. Base Black was laughing off Blue Vegeta's attacks and pwned Goku and Vegeta in Rose.
Then Vegeta needed a YEAR to train in the ROS&T to even overcome Black.

[TheSaiyanGod]

That doesn't necessarily mean he was ten times stronger. Goku never said he won't use Kaioken to stop the time skip. He can also still try and predict it.

It was the old trope of "you can't use the same technique with me twice" that other shonen use.

At the end of the tournament the Time Skip was able to completely freeze Goku with Blue Kaioken x10, there was no way to prevent or predict this unless his power was too great for the technique to contain (which happened before Hit improved again). SSB Goku was only able to predict the Time Skip for up to 0.2 seconds.

Amd Hit said he would not be so "charitable" to use Time Skip on Goku again, implying that the other techniques used by him in this fight are better. And considering that Goku didn't need Kaioken during the entire fight, it doesn't seem like he was taking this into account when saying that TS wouldn't work.

And Goku didn't overpower the time skip at the end, it was a different technique. Also even if that technique and the time skip work by the same logic, Goku used a full power Kamehameha that has amplication, which is the same as Kaioken in a sense.

Indeed it was not the Time Skip that Goku broke at the end of the fight, it was the pocket dimension in which Hit hid to store time and become intangible (which is visually identical to the Time Skip tho). Either way, he was able to affect and crack this dimension only with the strength of his Ki, even before the Kamehameha

[ZombieVito]

But Hit's timeskip does not work on opponents stronger than Him. In both the anime and manga. So how can Black be affected by it?

Black isn't 10 times stronger than Hit.

You are right. Black is much stronger. Base Black was laughing off Blue Vegeta's attacks and pwned Goku and Vegeta in Rose.
Then Vegeta needed a YEAR to train in the ROS&T to even overcome Black.

Vegeta was holding back against base Black since when the latter goes Rose they have a close struggle. Not to mention that Goku and Black were relative to each other the next episode.

[SupremeKai25]

Some people are forgetting that after the Future Trunks arc in the anime, Goku explicitly says that Hit's Time Skip would no longer work on him, and Hit agrees. At the end of the fight Goku even breaks the technique with raw power alone and both end in a draw. And previously Hit's TS had worked against SSB KK X10 during the Champa tournament, which means that during that gap Goku became at least 10x stronger. Yes, it was a "filler" episode but it is considered for the continuity of the anime anyway.

About Black, he may have been stronger than Goku / Vegeta before the fusion but those clones he showed are just fodder for SSB tier characters. They don't have any resistance (since they were defeated with simple blows, the real problem was that they kept showing up) and they basically couldn't scratch the Saiyan duo. For some reason even after that, both were confident of defeating Black and Zamasu. Goku's feats against Merged Zamasu later also kind of play against the notion of Black being stronger (especially if Goku can use Kaioken)

That's untrue actually, they ARE able to damage SSB tier fighters:




The clones have shown the ability to damage SSB tier fighters, making an army of them very dangerous, also while they might be pulverized with just one hit, they are immortal and able to regenerate infinitely, and obviously the reality rift created by Black constantly generates more and more clones.

The two literally couldn't have done anything if Black didn't leave the scene, causing the rift and clones to disappear... they were cornered and overwhelmed and couldn't go anywhere, especially since the reality rift was messing with their techniques.

[Hugo Boss]

To the ones that think Goku Black was trying to draw out Goku and Vegeta’s power from anger to strengthen himself, I think the episode very subtly gives you the idea that Goku Black was severely underestimating them. Goku and Vegeta weren’t losing confidence, Goku Black’s clones were just a nuisance for them. As soon as Goku Black realizes his mistake, after also seeing the immortal Zamas being pressured, he is the one to suggest fusion. If he was in such a comfortable position, I don’t think he would use his secret weapon that soon.

Gowasu also says Goku Black is the strongest in episode 65.

Are you sure he didn’t say the strongest form of Goku Black (SSR) combined with immortal Zamas?

[Thani]

Some people are forgetting that after the Future Trunks arc in the anime, Goku explicitly says that Hit's Time Skip would no longer work on him, and Hit agrees. At the end of the fight Goku even breaks the technique with raw power alone and both end in a draw. And previously Hit's TS had worked against SSB KK X10 during the Champa tournament, which means that during that gap Goku became at least 10x stronger. Yes, it was a "filler" episode but it is considered for the continuity of the anime anyway.

About Black, he may have been stronger than Goku / Vegeta before the fusion but those clones he showed are just fodder for SSB tier characters. They don't have any resistance (since they were defeated with simple blows, the real problem was that they kept showing up) and they basically couldn't scratch the Saiyan duo. For some reason even after that, both were confident of defeating Black and Zamasu. Goku's feats against Merged Zamasu later also kind of play against the notion of Black being stronger (especially if Goku can use Kaioken)

That's untrue actually, they ARE able to damage SSB tier fighters:




The clones have shown the ability to damage SSB tier fighters, making an army of them very dangerous, also while they might be pulverized with just one hit, they are immortal and able to regenerate infinitely, and obviously the reality rift created by Black constantly generates more and more clones.

The two literally couldn't have done anything if Black didn't leave the scene, causing the rift and clones to disappear... they were cornered and overwhelmed and couldn't go anywhere, especially since the reality rift was messing with their techniques.

It just occurred to me. Could it be that this was Toyotaro's inspiration for his rendition of Infinite Zamasu? Because looking at it again, it's suspiciously similar.

To the ones that think Goku Black was trying to draw out Goku and Vegeta’s power from anger to strengthen himself, I think the episode very subtly gives you the idea that Goku Black was severely underestimating them. Goku and Vegeta weren’t losing confidence, Goku Black’s clones were just a nuisance for them. As soon as Goku Black realizes his mistake, after also seeing the immortal Zamas being pressured, he is the one to suggest fusion. If he was in such a comfortable position, I don’t think he would use his secret weapon that soon.

Gowasu also says Goku Black is the strongest in episode 65.

Are you sure he didn’t say the strongest form of Goku Black (SSR) combined with immortal Zamas?

Nah Hugo, when Black suggested fusion it was Future Zamasu that said they couldn't be underestimated. Black's response was "So I guess play time is over". You were right, they were going easy on them since they still had fusion, but it was less out of desperation as in the manga and more as "Okay, let's stop screwing around now before they actually manage something".

Unfortunately, Merged Zamasu was so full of hubris that it kinda still blew up on their faces. A shame, cuz' the writers could have done so much more with the character, combat-wise...

[SupremeKai25]

To the ones that think Goku Black was trying to draw out Goku and Vegeta’s power from anger to strengthen himself, I think the episode very subtly gives you the idea that Goku Black was severely underestimating them. Goku and Vegeta weren’t losing confidence, Goku Black’s clones were just a nuisance for them. As soon as Goku Black realizes his mistake, after also seeing the immortal Zamas being pressured, he is the one to suggest fusion. If he was in such a comfortable position, I don’t think he would use his secret weapon that soon.

Gowasu also says Goku Black is the strongest in episode 65.

Are you sure he didn’t say the strongest form of Goku Black (SSR) combined with immortal Zamas?

I don't see why you would come to that conclusion when:

1) Black previously utilized his anger for the first time as a source of power, strengthening himself to the point that his power exceeded his own expectations and comprehension. Pretty much everyone on the battlefield was astonished by the reality rift that Black created, Black himself included. He was just on a whole different level.

2) Gowasu in the following episode said that Goku Black was the "most powerful". This is the exact line of dialogue:

By fusing, he's obtained even greater power. The immortal Zamasu and the most powerful Goku Black. When the two became one, his power didn't just merge together, it expanded to no end!

This is further confirmation that Black was, indeed, the strongest non-fused, non-GoD character at the time, clearly in a class of his own.

It just occurred to me. Could it be that this was Toyotaro's inspiration for his rendition of Infinite Zamasu? Because looking at it again, it's suspiciously similar.

I also noticed the similarity in the past, it could be... I don't see why Toyotaro couldn't have taken a few inspirations from the anime, I know it's very popular nowadays to make all these "anime vs. manga" debates, but I think Toyotaro would be more than happy to take ideas from the anime as inspiration when he deems it appropriate. After all I heard he loved GT, and as we all know GT was an anime-only show created by Toei.

Unfortunately, Merged Zamasu was so full of hubris that it kinda still blew up on their faces. A shame, cuz' the writers could have done so much more with the character, combat-wise...

It's more about the inconsistency of the writers. Given that Fused Zamasu repeatedly oneshot two SSB fighters (as expected) and fought evenly against Vegito for a time, but for some reason he also lost a beam struggle against Goku, who was inferior to Black... and then obviously we have that character whom shall not be named that cleaved Zamasu in half somehow, even though he was fodder to both Black and Immortal Zamasu.

[Thani]

It's more about the inconsistency of the writers. Given that Fused Zamasu repeatedly oneshot two SSB fighters (as expected) and fought evenly against Vegito for a time, but for some reason he also lost a beam struggle against Goku, who was inferior to Black... and then obviously we have that character whom shall not be named that cleaved Zamasu in half somehow, even though he was fodder to both Black and Immortal Zamasu.

Well, the obvious answer is "plot" here. But it can be explained by hubris clouding his judgement. He was so full of himself and believing his own supremacy that he didn't think that the power he used against them could be contested at all. That Zamasu is kinda prone to get shocked when his understanding of the world does not match reality, so I think it's okay. For example, he didn't even deign to dodge both times, even though he had ample time to do so.

But still, of course, the answer is just plot. Zamasu in the manga was much more practical in this regard, but I overall dislike him.

[Hugo Boss]

Nah Hugo, when Black suggested fusion it was Future Zamasu that said they couldn't be underestimated. Black's response was "So I guess play time is over". You were right, they were going easy on them since they still had fusion, but it was less out of desperation as in the manga and more as "Okay, let's stop screwing around now before they actually manage something".

Goku Black didn’t lose his composure like in the manga, but his response to Zamas pretty much implies he doesn’t want to lose to some miracle, which they actually manage even after the fusion. Goku, Vegeta and Trunks actually kept going at him, until his body collapsed. If he was just Goku Black, I don’t see how he could beat that effort. They just showed there was a limit to how much damage he could take.

[...]
2) Gowasu in the following episode said that Goku Black was the "most powerful". This is the exact line of dialogue:

By fusing, he's obtained even greater power. The immortal Zamasu and the most powerful Goku Black. When the two became one, his power didn't just merge together, it expanded to no end!

This is further confirmation that Black was, indeed, the strongest non-fused, non-GoD character at the time, clearly in a class of his own.
[...]

I addressed your first reply in the text above. For this one, your translation is different than mine. In my language it was translated to “most powerful form of Goku Black”. Someone that understands Japanese and has access to Episode #65 might want to clear this up.