Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GodVegetto91]

I've said, I'm not making any claims to deny or confirm the comparison between Broly Goku and TOP UI Goku. We simply don't know. However, we factually do know, that the next enemy is always stronger than the last a 100%. Goku's growth or lack thereof doesn't change that.

Yes, we do. We know nothing changed, so we know things remain the same. There's nothing to justify doubting that, unless one would use some form of conjecture...

And the bolded part isn't true either, Hit wasn't stronger than Golden Freeza, so that 100% is out of place.

And it's also dumb. It was clear that Toriyama was playing with this idea in the first three arcs - Freeza, Hit and Black were generally in the same realm of power, with slight variations of what made them dangerous. Freeza was more focused on power, Black on his double team with Zamasu and owning of Goku's techniques and Hit by virtue of his time skip.

Really, Merged Zamasu/Jiren/Broly/Moro also fits the dynamic of people vaguely in the same realm of power, each of them having different gimmicks that made them dangerous as hell.

Why return to the same outdated rule when you had something good going on?

Edit: Also Hit was absolutely not tied with SSB Goku in the manga, instead he was tied with regular SS Goku. Even in the anime, Goku was overwhelming him in just Blue initially. Hit would definitely beat Golden Freeza in that arc, but it wasn't because of being stronger, it was because of his Time Skip.

Goku Black was a lot stronger than Hit and Golden Freeza in the Manga. It only took him SSJ1 + a Zenkai Boost to completely overpower initial SSJ Blue Vegeta. After that he unlocked SSJ Rosé, and got stronger yet again through zenkais. So Goku Black is not in the same realm as Golden Freeza and Hit.

As for Merged Zamasu, he isn’t anywhere CLOSE to Jiren in terms of pure strength. And Jiren ain’t even close to Broly, who in turn pales in comparison to Prime Moro even.

There is a lot wrong with this post of yours, and it is too simple minded.

[Hugo Boss]

It does make sense to include Vegeta when Goku assumes it's only Vegeta he has to compete with for the title of strongest. THEN Whis states that it could be someone else besides them as the best. Then Goku asks Whis do you know anyone stronger than US out there? Whis can't name anyone currently stronger than BOTH right now. That is when the convo became present based. Now it went back to future talk when Whis says you never know what strong guy might show up "NEXT." Do you get it now?

You think Goku and Whis are saying they don’t know someone stronger than either Goku or Vegeta. I get it.

But excuse me, I think they are saying they don’t know someone stronger than both Goku and Vegeta, which means, to be more precise, stronger at least than either the strongest between them (Goku in the fight against Moro for example).

For some reason, you decided the first one is the only way of interpreting Goku’s question and you keep retorting it like it is a fact. I perfectly understand your point, I’m not saying Vegeta can’t be right below Goku like you are implying, it’s possible, but you are still insisting on dismissing other people comments on this matter. This kind of attitude is what makes battle power discussions unappealing.

[Miracles]

It does make sense to include Vegeta when Goku assumes it's only Vegeta he has to compete with for the title of strongest. THEN Whis states that it could be someone else besides them as the best. Then Goku asks Whis do you know anyone stronger than US out there? Whis can't name anyone currently stronger than BOTH right now. That is when the convo became present based. Now it went back to future talk when Whis says you never know what strong guy might show up "NEXT." Do you get it now?

You think Goku and Whis are saying they don’t know someone stronger than either Goku or Vegeta. I get it.

But excuse me, I think they are saying they don’t know someone stronger than both Goku and Vegeta, which means, to be more precise, stronger at least than either the strongest between them (Goku in the fight against Moro for example).

For some reason, you decided the first one is the only way of interpreting Goku’s question and you keep retorting it like it is a fact. I perfectly understand your point, I’m not saying Vegeta can’t be right below Goku like you are implying, it’s possible, but you are still insisting on dismissing other people comments on this matter. This kind of attitude is what makes battle power discussions unappealing.

Forgive me if I come off as such. However, it's not my intent. I'm merely propping up the narrative. The story leaves no room for interpretation here. The entire context makes it clear, that Goku thinks, presently, he only has Vegeta to compete with for the title of strongest. Whis is the one who says later someone NEW might be stronger than Goku and Vegeta.

Goku: Lets see which one of us [Goku and Vegeta] can be strongest.

Whis: Someone else might end up being the strongest.

Goku: Huh? Who is stronger than us [Vegeta and Goku] out there?

Whis: I Can't name anyone [Right there, a confirmation of Goku's feelings that he only has Vegeta to worry about NOW. Since no one is stronger than them currently]...

Whis: But given the scope of the universe you never know when the NEXT strong guy might show up.

As you can see the enemy is new; later! Is of the FUTURE, not the past.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

And the self-purported "lack of interpretation" is exactly why people don't value the arguments brought forth on that front.

It reeks of intellectual BS "I'm right and everyone else is wrong", as though this mentality is meant to imply everyone else is somehow too thickheaded to know better.

That assumes far too much and pre-supposes a general bad faith debater in general who refuses to even entertain the possibility they may be wrong.

The mere fact that there is such a wide degree of interpretations that are all educated in their guesswork with plenty of valid and tangible evidence on all fronts already spells out how open-ended and varied people can view this material, which is enough to dispel any notions of any particular individuals having the most objective stances.

[ZombieVito]

Huh? Goku Black trashes Hit power wise.

He would have a higher power level but Hit was superior to Goku Black overall. Goku had to use Kaio-ken X10 against Hit unlike Goku Black who wasn't that far ahead of him.

Hit also then killed Goku immediately unlike Goku Black.

Goku Black was the antagonist to follow Hit and both he and Zamasu were his inferior.

Goku needed Kaioken because of the time skip. Without it Hit was getting beat by regular Blue Goku.

[Dragon Wukong]

Huh? Goku Black trashes Hit power wise.

He would have a higher power level but Hit was superior to Goku Black overall. Goku had to use Kaio-ken X10 against Hit unlike Goku Black who wasn't that far ahead of him.

Hit also then killed Goku immediately unlike Goku Black.

Goku Black was the antagonist to follow Hit and both he and Zamasu were his inferior.

Goku needed Kaioken because of the time skip. Without it Hit was getting beat by regular Blue Goku.

That's basically what he's saying. If Goku needs Kaioken to deal with Hit, Goku Black probably wouldn't be able to deal with the timeskip either.

[SupremeKai25]

He would have a higher power level but Hit was superior to Goku Black overall. Goku had to use Kaio-ken X10 against Hit unlike Goku Black who wasn't that far ahead of him.

Hit also then killed Goku immediately unlike Goku Black.

Goku Black was the antagonist to follow Hit and both he and Zamasu were his inferior.

Goku needed Kaioken because of the time skip. Without it Hit was getting beat by regular Blue Goku.

That's basically what he's saying. If Goku needs Kaioken to deal with Hit, Goku Black probably wouldn't be able to deal with the timeskip either.

Black is way stronger than Goku, he wouldn't need Kaioken to counter Hit's techniques. So that's a false equivalency, Goku and Black have never been equals.

[Hugo Boss]

How would Goku Black counter Hit’s techniques in the anime though? Do you think he was that much stronger than Goku? Goku was arguably stronger than Goku Black after they defeated Zamas and he almost got killed by Hit.

In the manga, Goku used against Hit the same strategy Vegeta used against Goku Black (switching between SSG and SSB to maximize the attack efficiency). It’s impossible to know each one is stronger, since both were tricked by it. Also, Hit and Goku Black were more than a match for incomplete SSB Vegeta.

It depends on how much you think Vegeta improved between Champa Arc and Future Trunks Arc and how much Hit handicapped himself due to the tournament rules. At full power, Hit was on equal grounds with mastered SSB on Universe Survival Arc and his technique probably could put him slightly ahead.

[SupremeKai25]

How would Goku Black counter Hit’s techniques in the anime though? Do you think he was that much stronger than Goku? Goku was arguably stronger than Goku Black after they defeated Zamas and he almost got killed by Hit.

In the manga, Goku used against Hit the same strategy Vegeta used against Goku Black (switching between SSG and SSB to maximize the attack efficiency). It’s impossible to know each one is stronger, since both were tricked by it. Also, Hit and Goku Black were more than a match for incomplete SSB Vegeta.

It depends on how much you think Vegeta improved between Champa Arc and Future Trunks Arc and how much Hit handicapped himself due to the tournament rules. At full power, Hit was on equal grounds with mastered SSB on Universe Survival Arc and his technique probably could put him slightly ahead.

Black is way above both Goku and Vegeta to be honest, this was clear before he fused with Zamasu. He had Goku and Vegeta cornered with his army of clones, they only got out of that situation because Black teleported to where Zamasu was and fused. Before that Black was absolutely dominating the duo, they literally couldn't do anything against his endless army of clones. My guess? Black would just overwhelm Hit using his infinite army of immortal clones which have enough battle power to hurt two SSB fighters. I don't see how Hit's time tricks could help him then.

[Miracles]

After U6 arc, Goku got so strong, he's able to fight a merged Zamas equally. Hit from U6 does not compare to that power.

[Thani]

That only happens in the manga tho, where Merged Zamasu is explicitly only as strong as a Completed Super Saiyan Blue, which is, again, the full power of the transformation being used consistently. And Hit was already weaker than Blue, his full power only being equal to or above God. So basically Goku always was that strong.

In the anime Merged Zamasu was toying with them the whole time, and Goku never displayed being equal to him, at best only catching that Zamasu off guard after surpassing his limits and breaking his arms in the process. This Hit was being overwhelmed by Blue, but his timeskip had no inherent bullshit weakness like in the manga. Stronger characters could counter it because they could predict it and were faster than Hit anyway, like Kaioken Goku and Jiren.

Black is way above both Goku and Vegeta to be honest, this was clear before he fused with Zamasu. He had Goku and Vegeta cornered with his army of clones, they only got out of that situation because Black teleported to where Zamasu was and fused. Before that Black was absolutely dominating the duo, they literally couldn't do anything against his endless army of clones. My guess? Black would just overwhelm Hit using his infinite army of immortal clones which have enough battle power to hurt two SSB fighters. I don't see how Hit's time tricks could help him then.

About that, in the anime at least since we're talking about time-rift clones, Hit could really: time-skip to dodge the clones, time-skip to approach Black and time-skip to strike him.

Black could probably counter him like Goku did, tho, and it's possible that his clones could be flat-out immune to the technique because of what they are, but if not, Hit can very well bypass them with time skip.

[Miracles]

Goku in the anime had enough power to overpower fused Zamas.
Goku in the manga had enough power to rival fused Zamas.

I'm still not understanding how you guys think Hit wasn't surpassed in the Future Trunks arc?

[Thani]

Oh no, don't get me wrong, he was. He was surpassed the moment Goku went blue. Hit was always weaker than Blue, what varies by the medium is in how it is portrayed.

In the manga he's hopelessly outmatched by Blue, because his full power can only, at best, make his time skip work on God. Meaning he's about as strong or stronger than Super Saiyan God.

In the anime he's overwhelmed by Blue, and the form's speed allows Goku to counter Hit's time skip. When Hit improves on the time skip, he can finally strike Goku when he can't defend himself and thus inflict damage, but that doesn't mean he's still not weaker. When Goku whips out the kaioken, the same problems arise for Hit until he yet again improves on the time skip, although it doesn't guarantee his victory anymore (a single punch from Goku sends him to his knees). The anime then apparently ignores this aspect of Hit, since it's not brought up again.

As far as powers goes, he's always surpassed by the end of the U6 arc. What's argued is that Anime Hit's timeskip would work on Black, which is true.

Also Goku in the anime indeed had enough power to overpower Merged Zamasu. As did Vegeta and Trunks working together. But Goku had to break his arms for this since he was alone in that moment, so it's safe to assume that Vegeta could do the same. Zamasu being overpowered by that, however, doesn't change that he was wrecking them the entire time with ease beforehand, and there was no time for them to get stronger. Zamasu's entire character flaw was his hubris. He was screwing around because he didn't view Goku, Vegeta and Trunks as real threats to his supremely divine being anymore. That's what bit him in the ass. When he finally stops screwing around, he's a match for Vegito.

[Dragon Wukong]

Goku needed Kaioken because of the time skip. Without it Hit was getting beat by regular Blue Goku.

That's basically what he's saying. If Goku needs Kaioken to deal with Hit, Goku Black probably wouldn't be able to deal with the timeskip either.

Black is way stronger than Goku, he wouldn't need Kaioken to counter Hit's techniques. So that's a false equivalency, Goku and Black have never been equals.

Goku effectively fought on somewhat equal terms with Black without ever needing to use the Kaioken. Only difficulty after Zamasu made it a 2 on 1 fight.

Consider that Goku only ever needed Kaioken against Hit, Fused Zamasu, and Jiren. He never needed to use it against Goku Black.

Goku in the anime had enough power to overpower fused Zamas.
Goku in the manga had enough power to rival fused Zamas.

I'm still not understanding how you guys think Hit wasn't surpassed in the Future Trunks arc?

To be fair, Hit in both the manga and the anime fared better against Jiren than Goku at his strongest (not including Ultra Instinct Sign). So whatever training he did before the ToP can likely be said to have brought him up to par if not stronger than Goku.

In fact I'd go as far as to say that if Goku and Hit had a one on one rematch in the ToP Goku would've been on the backfoot unless he could awaken Ultra Instinct. Which likely wouldn't happen in the anime since the difficulty with Hit was never pure strength and power, which is what awakened Ultra Instinct in Goku.

[Hugo Boss]

I guess it depends on if you think SSR Goku Black is stronger than SSBKaioken x10 Goku or not. Goku couldn’t sustain that power for long, but Hit was able to keep up with that level while handicapped.

[Koitsukai]

I guess it depends on if you think SSR Goku Black is stronger than SSBKaioken x10 Goku or not. Goku couldn’t sustain that power for long, but Hit was able to keep up with that level while handicapped.

Considering Goku used KK (most likely just regular KK because his body was already broken and shouldn't have been able to handle so much) and with it he overpowered Black fused with someone else, I doubt there was such a gap between them.

I also doubt Goku got over 10x stronger from arc to arc, resulting in a FT SSB > U6 SSBKKx10. IIRC, Goku had to take it easy after having ki-controlling issues due to the Blue KKx10 thing.

[Thani]

It's important to note that Hit's handicap was just his assassination techniques. He wasn't getting stronger or anything, just more dangerous.

From U6 to FT, nothing really happened in either medium to suggest a massive increase in power in our heroes. Trunks' commentary about how their bodies were nearing their limits, in fact, hint at the opposite. Such a leap in power is unneeded for the story to make sense and is never really addressed by the narrative itself.

[ZombieVito]

He would have a higher power level but Hit was superior to Goku Black overall. Goku had to use Kaio-ken X10 against Hit unlike Goku Black who wasn't that far ahead of him.

Hit also then killed Goku immediately unlike Goku Black.

Goku Black was the antagonist to follow Hit and both he and Zamasu were his inferior.

Goku needed Kaioken because of the time skip. Without it Hit was getting beat by regular Blue Goku.

That's basically what he's saying. If Goku needs Kaioken to deal with Hit, Goku Black probably wouldn't be able to deal with the timeskip either.

And that's why I only talked about power not techniques.

Goku effectively fought on somewhat equal terms with Black without ever needing to use the Kaioken. Only difficulty after Zamasu made it a 2 on 1 fight.

Consider that Goku only ever needed Kaioken against Hit, Fused Zamasu, and Jiren. He never needed to use it against Goku Black.

Black flat out beat Goku in episode 61, alone.



And by episode 64 he got another power up.

[SupremeKai25]

Yep, don't know why people are saying Goku was equal to Black. Black was clearly superior to both Saiyans in ep. 64:



He literally had them cornered and unable to go anywhere, he only retreated and fused because he felt Zamasu's ki disappearing, and that made him worry.

Black [after he unlocks Scythe] > Goku and Vegeta

Goku injuring Fused Zamasu with the Kamehameha is BS, let's be real. We've been saying this since 2016. Goku who was way weaker than Black had no business fighting Fused Zamasu, and he even got oneshot twice in ep. 65, but since he is the main character...

[Hugo Boss]

It's important to note that Hit's handicap was just his assassination techniques. He wasn't getting stronger or anything, just more dangerous.

That’s right. But the point is that with said techniques he would be able to defeat Goku. Actually, that’s the reason Goku forfeit. When they had a second match, Hit was implied to be way more difficult to approach with his assassin moves than he was in their first match with only time-skip.

Goku injuring Fused Zamasu with the Kamehameha is BS, let's be real. We've been saying this since 2016. Goku who was way weaker than Black had no business fighting Fused Zamasu, and he even got oneshot twice in ep. 65, but since he is the main character...

I don’t quite agree with that. If it’s only a power contest, Goku and Vegeta should be stronger than Goku Black. He was pressuring them before because he had an infinite supply of doppelgängers. That’s the way he figured he could deal with them, avoiding close combat. If Merged Zamas was overpowered by Goku in a power struggle, that only supports his power advantage. He sacrificed his body to accomplish that feat, so it makes sense. It’s even implied that if Goku Black alone has received that attack he would be vaporized, but the other half Zamas’ durability kept them alive.