"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[OLKv3]

Ok, so I saw this when I opened the Viz app and this really bothers me

Spoiler:

Specifically the last part where it says “But how can they do anything when Moro can Drain them of their energy just by being near Him”. This really bothers me because apparently he doesn’t do this anymore for some reason. I mean he came to earth with the specific intention to eat people’s energy. Yet he hasn’t eaten a single persons energy since he got there. The only thing he ate was 7-3 which only goes to the trend of the fact that Moro has killed More of his own Men than he has anyone else. Its really bothersome because if it wasn’t for the immense plot armour Goku and Vegeta would have Died on Namek.

Yeah, it's incredibly annoying how much they nerfed Moro's ability for the Earth battles

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Ok, so I saw this when I opened the Viz app and this really bothers me

Spoiler:

Specifically the last part where it says “But how can they do anything when Moro can Drain them of their energy just by being near Him”. This really bothers me because apparently he doesn’t do this anymore for some reason. I mean he came to earth with the specific intention to eat people’s energy. Yet he hasn’t eaten a single persons energy since he got there. The only thing he ate was 7-3 which only goes to the trend of the fact that Moro has killed More of his own Men than he has anyone else. Its really bothersome because if it wasn’t for the immense plot armour Goku and Vegeta would have Died on Namek.

Yeah, it's incredibly annoying how much they nerfed Moro's ability for the Earth battles

Also, Moro seems to only kill his own fucking henchmen. Merus technically killed himself and I wouldn't call that Moro killing him. Moro hasn't really killed anyone directly that Goku and Vegeta actually give a damn about. I think they nerfed them because they'd have a hard time justifying Moro straight up draining everyone immediately and just having his henchmen raiding everything. I dont get why Moro didn't just over-power his henchmen like he did with Saganbo, would've made things easier for him wouldn't it?

[GodVegetto91]

Plot... Guys.. 100% Plot! That’s what’s to blame for any and all writing mistakes. It’s all about convenience for the writers, because they’re way too lazy to do it any other way.

They can’t have Moro passively draining Goku and Vegeta right now because that would render their training useless. So they somehow nerved that to justify wanking Goku and Vegeta.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Plot... Guys.. 100% Plot! That’s what’s to blame for any and all writing mistakes. It’s all about convenience for the writers, because they’re way too lazy to do it any other way.

They can’t have Moro passively draining Goku and Vegeta right now because that would render their training useless. So they somehow nerved that to justify wanking Goku and Vegeta.

Yeah honestly. I've found this arc tedious at times. Especially when they won't just allow Moro to kill someone directly that Goku and Vegeta care about. Like Moro's latest kill directly was Shimorekka...his own henchman. We don't really see him kill anyone of much importance and Merus(that doesn't count, Merus killed himself and Moro didn't really have any control over that).

Honestly, I'm shocked Moro hasn't gone like, 'Oh look, is this your first born son, Goku? It'd be a shame if I.....brutally killed him.'

[batistabus]

I don't understand why people assume Moro's ability was ever infallibly passive. By what mechanism? Moro's ability is limited by Moro, just like is the case for every ability for every other character in this series. This isn't a card game or an RPG. There's no law of the universe that dictates "whenever Moro activates this ability, every being gets drained no matter what". Vegeta overcame Bobbidi's mind control magic. Tenshinhan dodged Boo's "Destroy All Humans" technique. Goku broke through Hit's Time-Skip. Merged Zamasu survived Hakai. Jiren outlasted the unbeatable Migatte no Gokui. Characters can overcome Moro's technique by overcoming Moro's application of the technique; plain and simple.

[Lionel]

I personally found the Broly incident in Super to be generic and unnecessary. Oh, a long lost ubermensch of the classic run's heyday has suddenly appeared in the new series after all this time and his rage makes him an ever worsening maelstrom of power that requires something extraordinary like fusion to counter. Is that it? It's not like Goku and Vegeta don't already embody a number of those qualities; both of whom being static placeholders of Dragon Ball for six whole arcs since ROF.

Having said all that, Moro has proven to be underwhelming. I do appreciate his snide remarks and jabs at Vegeta but he hasn't really been all that exceptional in the characteristic department. Magic was intended to be the staple of his characterisation but it's frequently been taking a backseat to the power olympics we all know. What magic he has shown has honestly been less impressive than what Babidi displayed in the time he had during the Buu arc, in my honest opinion.

If Goku achieves MUI then congratulations to him -- he's managed to fulfill an expectation that we knew he would accomplish back when Ultra Instinct was first introduced.

Count me as one of the fans who's more interested in the potential long term applications of Vegeta's Forced Spirit Fission and the training efforts of Gohan, Piccolo, and the humans.

[GodVegetto91]

What’s the point of Forced Spirit Fission if it requiers the user to physically damage his opponent first? It’s no longer a hack then! Because if you’re up against an opponent who is VASTLY stronger than you, (you won’t even be able to hit him), but even if you do, you won’t even damage him. So again, it’s no longer a hack. Also, wasn’t Vegeta shown visibly draining the little Yardratians without making physical contact??? The Elder Yardrat did the exact same thing to Vegeta! Merely sticking his hands out! This is definitely a writing inconsistency! Now it’s no longer a cheat like UI or Fusion!

[Magnificent Ponta]

Specifically the last part where it says “But how can they do anything when Moro can Drain them of their energy just by being near Him”. This really bothers me because apparently he doesn’t do this anymore for some reason.

It's a blurb, not The Gospel. The blurb for Volume 4 calls Zamas "the Lord of Lords from Universe 10", for instance, but you know perfectly well that huge parts of the story turn on the fact that he isn't a Kaioshin.

As for the claims of nerfing, from you and these others:

Yeah, it's incredibly annoying how much they nerfed Moro's ability for the Earth battles

I think they nerfed them because they'd have a hard time justifying Moro straight up draining everyone immediately and just having his henchmen raiding everything.

They can’t have Moro passively draining Goku and Vegeta right now because that would render their training useless. So they somehow nerved that to justify wanking Goku and Vegeta.

I already subjected this claim of "originally passive, nerfed to active after Namek" to close reading in this topic, and it's clear that even on Namek, Moro's ability isn't passive - it's active but initially unnoticed, which is very different:

I also question this characterisation. In Chapter 45, Moro says that his planet-energy attack is the same technique as his life-energy-sapping magic, just a different application. Then we see him use it a lot and Vegeta get winded after some fighting. Then we see him use it again and then eat the energy he gathers, and it's clear that the energy is coming from people as well, and then Moro explains that the energy he's gathered includes the energy from Goku and Vegeta - so, it's not really a passive area of effect attack, he's just using it as part of his attack without them being aware - that's clear because Vegeta says the attack (i.e., the attack he already recognises) won't work against him now, and then Moro gathers more, and then eats the energy. Likewise, Vegeta only comments that Buu's energy hasn't dropped only after Moro uses that same attack. So it's clear Moro needs to actively do stuff to make energy absorption happen on Namek too, it's not passive like a lot of people have been saying. And Chapter 50 reinforces this when he only absorbs energy from the heroes, and not from his goons. But he's actively gathering the energy when he does it. So it's not out of place to see him try actively to use his more direct energy-sapping techniques on Earth as well. It hasn't really changed, it's just become more obvious. So saying it was passive and it now active isn't correct, given the evidence we have.

You may not like what it really is shown to be compared to the idea that it's a passive ability, but the manga itself never actually showed you a passive ability.

With that in mind, could we please move past this misleading claim of 'nerfing'?

[Lionel]

What’s the point of Forced Spirit Fission if it requiers the user to physically damage his opponent first? It’s no longer a hack then! Because if you’re up against an opponent who is VASTLY stronger than you, (you won’t even be able to hit him), but even if you do, you won’t even damage him. So again, it’s no longer a hack. Also, wasn’t Vegeta shown visibly draining the little Yardratians without making physical contact??? The Elder Yardrat did the exact same thing to Vegeta! Merely sticking his hands out! This is definitely a writing inconsistency! Now it’s no longer a cheat like UI or Fusion!

If that's truly how Toyotaro rendered the technique then it does sound inconsistent, I agree. But having said, there's creative ways to utilise Spirit Fission if done properly. Taiyoken, for instance, presumably damages the retinas in a victim's eyes.

[Cipher]

I can't believe ___ technique in Dragon Ball thought to be invincible is suddenly dependant on the target not being ____ much stronger!

This has never happened before how could I have foreseen it

I bring you all the most unfortunate tidings that, much as fans like to joke about it, were Akkuman ever to get the chance to use Devilmite Beam on Freeza, it would simply not work.

[Neon Z]

Ok, so I saw this when I opened the Viz app and this really bothers me

Spoiler:

Specifically the last part where it says “But how can they do anything when Moro can Drain them of their energy just by being near Him”. This really bothers me because apparently he doesn’t do this anymore for some reason. I mean he came to earth with the specific intention to eat people’s energy. Yet he hasn’t eaten a single persons energy since he got there. The only thing he ate was 7-3 which only goes to the trend of the fact that Moro has killed More of his own Men than he has anyone else. Its really bothersome because if it wasn’t for the immense plot armour Goku and Vegeta would have Died on Namek.

They did address that though. Moro said that absorbing energy was like food for him and he was full right now and leaving it for later. The only time he has struggled since the battle begun was against Vegeta anyway who could reverse his ability. Yeah, in the end though, it's just convenience to not have Earth in ruins (although I don't get why when the DBs are a thing).

[Kinokima]

I can't believe ___ technique in Dragon Ball thought to be invincible is suddenly dependant on the target not being ____ much stronger!

This has never happened before how could I have foreseen it

I bring you all the most unfortunate tidings that, much as fans like to joke about it, were Akkuman ever to get the chance to use Devilmite Beam on Freeza, it would simply not work.

It’s honestly the same with the heroes power ups/transformation people are always disappointed when it’s not as “invincible” as it sounded to them when it would be impossible to make it that way because then there would be no drama or story to tell.

[DiscountDabi]

I’m obviously not saying that Moro just absorbs energy without thinking about it. He clearly does need to actively use it. What I mean is he doesn’t need to stick his hand out or grab the person like the Androids. But he does now, as shown by his battle with Ultra Instinct Goku. As shown in Chapter 46 he says to Goku and Vegeta that “The Longer we Battle the more Enfeebled you will become while I will grow ever stronger.” He says this without using the planet energy attack. This is further backed up by the Viz Media Description

[Magnificent Ponta]

I’m obviously not saying that Moro just absorbs energy without thinking about it. He clearly does need to actively use it. What I mean is he doesn’t need to stick his hand out or grab the person like the Androids. But he does now, as shown by his battle with Ultra Instinct Goku.

I'm not convinced by the distinction you're trying to draw here. Sticking his hand out is obvious, but it's no more 'having to activate the attack' than his planet energy attack as he used it on Namek was, which takes his opponent's energy along with dealing damage (he literally says it's a variant of his ki-stealing magic before he starts using it), and it invariably follows a gesture of some sort to conjure it up.

Heck, much of the time on Namek, he literally holds his hand above his head and gathers it all in a flashy and very obvious ball of ki energy (in #45 and #50). OG73-I does exactly the same thing when he uses Moro's powers on Earth (in #54). How much more obviously 'needs to do a thing' do you want for an attack?

As shown in Chapter 46 he says to Goku and Vegeta that “The Longer we Battle the more Enfeebled you will become while I will grow ever stronger.” He says this without using the planet energy attack.

You omit the fact that he says it immediately after cooking Goku for a spell in that self-same planet energy attack, so Goku is enfeebled both by taking damage and having his energy drained by the attack, and also that Moro literally eats an energy blast from Vegeta in the middle of saying that sentence. So of course his statement that this whole situation will get worse for them as it goes on is obviously true on its face.

The reason I press you on this is that it seems to be a real bugbear of yours for at least the last several dozen pages, so at this point I'm literally just giving you reasons why you don't need to be as annoyed about this particular issue as you seem determined to be.

[Xeogran]

Even though Merus is already dead, I hope we will still learn more about him, such as:

If there are 12 Universes, why 13th Angel? Was he a replacement in case something happened to one of the 12? Or maybe there are plans to create a completely new Universe?

I'd like to know if more "backup" Angels exist.

[EGonzo]

I don't understand why people assume Moro's ability was ever infallibly passive. By what mechanism? Moro's ability is limited by Moro, just like is the case for every ability for every other character in this series. This isn't a card game or an RPG. There's no law of the universe that dictates "whenever Moro activates this ability, every being gets drained no matter what". Vegeta overcame Bobbidi's mind control magic. Tenshinhan dodged Boo's "Destroy All Humans" technique. Goku broke through Hit's Time-Skip. Merged Zamasu survived Hakai. Jiren outlasted the unbeatable Migatte no Gokui. Characters can overcome Moro's technique by overcoming Moro's application of the technique; plain and simple.

Maybe because it Namek his power was like an "evil" Spirit Bomb, he raised his hands and everything lost its energy. He didn't point to every Namekian individually to steal their energy. Even when Seven-Three copied the power he just raised his hands. Then on Earth Moro, for some reason, needs to target when he wants to absorb energy.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Maybe because it Namek his power was like an "evil" Spirit Bomb, he raised his hands and everything lost its energy. He didn't point to every Namekian individually to steal their energy. Even when Seven-Three copied the power he just raised his hands. Then on Earth Moro, for some reason, needs to target when he wants to absorb energy.

Not everything loses its power even on Namek, unless Moro wants them to do so - in Chapter 50 (still on Namek) he very deliberately omits his goons and targets the heroes to take power from when he uses the move.

And OG73-I did the 'raise hands and energy is lost' thing when using Moro's powers on Earth in #54, and he also specifically targets what he's doing - he specifies he's only drawing power from Gohan, Piccolo, Kuririn and Jaco, rather than from anyone else on Earth, so it clearly hasn't been forgotten. Moro can be selective or plenary with what he does, and shows he's able to target specific individuals at all points when we see him.

Nothing's changed, except what Goku can do to avoid it, which is immeasurably enhanced by being able to use Omen at will.

[SupremeKai25]

Even though Merus is already dead, I hope we will still learn more about him, such as:

If there are 12 Universes, why 13th Angel? Was he a replacement in case something happened to one of the 12? Or maybe there are plans to create a completely new Universe?

I'd like to know if more "backup" Angels exist.

I like your theory. We know that Supreme Kais are deities who create and nurture life throughout the cosmos, yet we have never seen them do that (aside from Fused Zamasu). It would be interesting to see the creation of an actual new universe (or 2 I guess, that new universe would need a mirror one).

[Miracles]

When Moro raises his hand above his head he starts to absorb energy [Ch.45, 49, 50 and 60].
For example, UI Omen Goku looked out for that sign, used super speed to avoid it.

However, in chapter 45, Goku noticed something is wrong before Moro raised his hand up to implement the technique.
I think this is where people get the idea that Moro can subtlety drain his prey. Still, shortly after that we see Moro's hand raised to actually eat the energy. The chapter's intent was more about Goku and Vegeta's lack of knowledge about the absorption than anything.

[Magnificent Ponta]

When Moro raises his hand above his head he starts to absorb energy [Ch.45, 49, 50 and 60].
For example, UI Omen Goku looked out for that sign, used super speed to avoid it.

However, in chapter 45, Goku noticed something is wrong before Moro raised his hand up to implement the technique.
I think this is where people get the idea that Moro can subtlety drain his prey. Still, shortly after that we see Moro's hand raised to actually eat the energy. The chapter's intent was more about Goku and Vegeta's lack of knowledge about the absorption than anything.

I agree with this, but in fairness to Chapter 45 (and to be more specific about the point you mention about it seeming more subtle), it goes out of its way to explain that Moro's planet energy attack steals the power from his targets to use it as well.

At the beginning of the chapter, we get this exchange:

Goku: We heard about how you can absorb life energy. Just like how you tried with that Namekian kid a minute ago.
Moro: Ohh...you're not entirely ignorant then...This will be the same technique but a different application.

Then he uses the planet energy attack and says "With this move, I attack with the life energy of the very planet we stand on", and later specifies that he can use it "until the planet itself is extinguished". And later, after Goku's noticed that something weird is going on and when Vegeta's lost too much energy to transform, Moro specifies further again when he says "You were already aware that my magic robs a planet of its life energy, weren't you? Naturally, that included a healthy portion of your energy as well."

So every time Moro used the planet energy attack, he was taking their power (along with the rest of the planet's) to make it run, which was already draining their energy from the moment he first used it - and the identification with ki absorption is even stronger when Vegeta recognises the 'raised hand' version of it as the same technique, and says it won't do any good against him (since he's expecting Moro to attack with it, rather than eat it).

So the chapter's very clear about how Moro does this stuff - though I can see how people may have missed it or failed to note the identification of the techniques, none of it's really hidden, and none of it's really different from the times he uses it later.