Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

And I don’t see any problem with the example I gave you. Granolah is above Blue tier, his attack is not suppressed, and he has the intent to kill.

He wasn't fighting at full strength from the start. He even urges Goku to use stronger transformations.

[ZombieVito]

I guess base Kid Trunks is Super Boo tier since he survived an attack to the face from him.

[Goku9001]

I guess base Kid Trunks is Super Boo tier since he survived an attack to the face from him.

He was clearly holding back. After Base Gotenks attacks him, Super Buu shrugs all of his attacks off as a sign of superiority, meaning that durability feats do matter in Dragon Ball.

[SupremeKai25]

What I am seeing in this thread is intellectual dishonesty at its finest, literally denying what Canon shows us.

Future Zamasu's accomplishments against SSB Goku go far beyond "tanking a blast" or "surviving an attack".

I gave clear, Canonical, undeniable, visual proof (gifs and video linked above) that Future Zamasu and SSB Goku had a prolonged fight where both were equal, only for Future Zamasu to eventually overpower and force Goku to run away.

Zamasu never had to resort to hax to fight SSB Goku

Excuse me, what? Didn’t both versions of Zamasu use the Super Dragon Balls because they can’t beat Goku on their own? How exactly do you think the future version powered-up without ever knowing about Goku until Black met him?

Zamasu's accomplishments against Goku in that fight are never attributed to Immortality since 1) Immortality doesn't boost power 2) It wasn't revealed yet that Zamasu was Immortal at that point.

Goku himself notes that "something felt different" with Future Zamasu compared to the Present counterpart, WITHOUT knowing about Immortality (Because Zamasu hadn't revealed it yet), which means he was referring to a clear and significant power boost.

Zamasu NEVER used a hax technique to damage his enemy. Immortality doesn't damage others, it is not an offensive ability like the Mafuba.

[Xeno Goku Black]

That's ridiculous as your premise suggests that taking an attack on any caliber, even an amplified Blue level attack, means absolutely nothing

Name anyone significantly below Blue level that has taken a Blue level attack let alone an amplified Blue level attack and actually survived.

Shifting your goal posts now. If being specifically Blue level is irrelevant.

Roshi is an ant compared to Piccolo and Gohan yet received the same amount of damage from the same attack anyway.

Trunks is weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Base Black. That was outright confirmed.

[Hugo Boss]

What I am seeing in this thread is intellectual dishonesty at its finest, literally denying what Canon shows us.

None is obligated to interpret the story the same as you. Using the “canon” word in your claims doesn’t give you authority to say other opinions are “intelectual dishonest”. It just makes you look arrogant and not welcome to worth discussion, just like the character you seem to be fond of.

I gave clear, Canonical, undeniable, visual proof (gifs and video linked above) that Future Zamasu and SSB Goku had a prolonged fight where both were equal, only for Future Zamasu to eventually overpower and force Goku to run away.

Which was already addressed in this thread several times before. And it isn’t surprising that we are still having this discussion as multiple Dragon Ball animated episodes have that kind of battle-plotting.

Zamasu's accomplishments against Goku in that fight are never attributed to Immortality since 1) Immortality doesn't boost power 2) It wasn't revealed yet that Zamasu was Immortal at that point.

Goku himself notes that "something felt different" with Future Zamasu compared to the Present counterpart, WITHOUT knowing about Immortality (Because Zamasu hadn't revealed it yet), which means he was referring to a clear and significant power boost.

Zamasu NEVER used a hax technique to damage his enemy. Immortality doesn't damage others, it is not an offensive ability like the Mafuba.

The “something different” Goku noted was Zamasu’s change of approach. He was level-headed and careful the first time, and at that point he lost all composure. Not that it mattered if he had knowledge of Zamasu’s invencibility or not, it wouldn’t matter what level of battle power Goku had, he would never accomplish anything against someone protected by the Super Dragon Balls. The “hax” is precisely his infinite hp. None ever comments on his battle power being greater than before.

[ZombieVito]

That's ridiculous as your premise suggests that taking an attack on any caliber, even an amplified Blue level attack, means absolutely nothing

Name anyone significantly below Blue level that has taken a Blue level attack let alone an amplified Blue level attack and actually survived.

Shifting your goal posts now. If being specifically Blue level is irrelevant.

Roshi is an ant compared to Piccolo and Gohan yet received the same amount of damage from the same attack anyway.

Trunks is weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Base Black. That was outright confirmed.

I think the difference between Roshi and Ginyu is even greater than the difference between Blue tier and SS2 tier lmao.

Roshi was still struggling against Freeza's soldiers, who have a power level of 1,000 or so. Ginyu is in the freaking BILLIONS.

[Goku9001]

Shifting your goal posts now. If being specifically Blue level is irrelevant.

Roshi is an ant compared to Piccolo and Gohan yet received the same amount of damage from the same attack anyway.

Trunks is weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Base Black. That was outright confirmed.

There is no shifting of goalposts. It is completely relevant to the discussion. The author has consistently made it clear that durability feats are relevant to a user's power. You are going against this trend by insinuating that taking on any caliber is somehow not representative of a user's strength. If you provide me an episode number, I'll take a look at it later.

Trunks was confirmed to be below Super Saiyan 3 Goku as of episode 50, but that isn't the case as of episode 57. Base Goku Black is slightly above Super Saiyan 3 Goku as of episode 50 yet is clearly beyond Super Saiyan God as of episode 56.

[SupremeKai25]

What I am seeing in this thread is intellectual dishonesty at its finest, literally denying what Canon shows us.

None is obligated to interpret the story the same as you. Using the “canon” word in your claims doesn’t give you authority to say other opinions are “intelectual dishonest”. It just makes you look arrogant and not welcome to worth discussion, just like the character you seem to be fond of.

I am not interpreting the story; I am reporting what happened.

By denying that Zamasu clashed with and held his own against a Bloodlust SSB Goku, you are denying the Canon story presented to us.

Again, the video and gifs have been linked above for all to see, but if need be, I can compile a list of all the feats Zamasu has against SSB fighters throughout his screentime in Super. Since he's only fought in 5 episodes it shouldn't take too long.

Which was already addressed in this thread several times before.

Which was already countered by me when I talked about Zamasu constantly fighting with his guard down. Those times when he got hit by Trunks are the actual "flukes" that happened due to Zamasu's [Canonically-acknowledged] carelessness in battle.

At which point you can indeed scale Future Zamasu down to SS2 Trunks's level (though that would contradict his entire debut fight, and other smaller fights), but then you would also have to scale Goku down to Sorbet's level. Since both Zamasu and Goku were hit by attacks while they had their guard lowered.

The “something different” Goku noted was Zamasu’s change of approach. He was level-headed and careful the first time, and at that point he lost all composure

There is no indication of any of this in the actual scene. There are no elements that even remotely indicate he was referring to Zamasu's "change of approach".

Goku notes, AS HE IS TRADING FISTS WITH ZAMASU, that something's changed, flashback to him TRADING FISTS WITH PRESENT ZAMASU AND GAUGING HIS POWER LEVEL. So he was clearly referring to power level.

There was no need to note a "change of approach" in the Future Zamasu because that was obvious to everyone. Present Zamasu was still a conflicted Kai, while Future Zamasu had already succumbed completely to his dark and genocidal desires. Thus, there would be no reason to acknowledge this. Everyone already knows this but what no one knew (until Goku saw for himself) is that Future Zamasu's power felt "different" compared to Present Zamasu's.

it wouldn’t matter what level of battle power Goku had, he would never accomplish anything against someone protected by the Super Dragon Balls

He would never accomplish anything not just because of Immortality, but because Zamasu was keeping up with him and eventually overwhelmed him and forced him to retreat.

[Yuji]

How strong do we consider anime merged Zamasu? I know by every metric he's implied to be weaker than Jiren but considering how Zamasu was about equal to Vegetto Blue, that's hard to believe. Vegetto in the Zamasu arc should be weaker than Gogeta in Broly obviously, but for comparison a Gogeta Blue toyed with a Broly stronger than Jiren.

[Goku9001]

How strong do we consider anime merged Zamasu? I know by every metric he's implied to be weaker than Jiren but considering how Zamasu was about equal to Vegetto Blue, that's hard to believe. Vegetto in the Zamasu arc should be weaker than Gogeta in Broly obviously, but for comparison a Gogeta Blue toyed with a Broly stronger than Jiren.

He could be weaker than UI Omen 1 Goku.

Unlike in the manga, there is a significant difference between Goku/Vegeta (Goku Black) and Goku/Vegeta (Post-ToP) due to the absurd powerscaling involved which wasn't present in the manga. Therefore, the difference between Gogeta Blue and Vegetto Blue in the anime is probably stupendous.

[SupremeKai25]

Black and Zamasu > Caulifla and Kale [the two girls dream of having the feats against SSB Goku that Future Zamasu had, they stood no chance vs. SSG Goku]

So by simple logic Fused Zamasu > Kefla at the bare minimum.

There is also a rule introduced in the ToP arc that a fused being's strength is also determined by how well the two fusées cooperate, hence why Beerus wanted to have 17 and 18 fuse to create "Android 35", due to being twins and thus having brilliant coordination, which would create a very powerful fighter. They didn't do it in the end though because Whis noted that if they lost then they'd lose 2 fighters instead of 1, so it was too risky.

Anyway following this rule we know that Fused Zamasu is an exceptionally strong fused being since, well, he's the fusion of Zamasu and Zamasu. Being the same person, their coordination is noted to be perfect and flawless. I think this is a very underrated aspect of Fused Zamasu, being the fusion of literally the same person, following Beerus' rule he ought to be incredibly powerful. And he certainly showed it against Vegito Blue.

Since Fused Zamasu > Kefla, I can see him putting up a very good fight against Ep. 116 Omen Goku, and possibly outlasting despite his partially-mortal body. It's implied that Kefla's attacks were extremely lethal to Goku, so that he had to dodge them very carefully (he even looked worried at one point that he might get hit), so Fused Zamasu who has way stronger fusées should easily replicate that kind of firepower. If he gets a good hit on Goku he should win comfortably.

I'd say only Full Power Jiren and MUI Goku can beat Fused Zamasu most of the times, and even then we have to consider anti-feats like Jiren being hurt by Android 17.

[ZombieVito]

How strong do we consider anime merged Zamasu? I know by every metric he's implied to be weaker than Jiren but considering how Zamasu was about equal to Vegetto Blue, that's hard to believe. Vegetto in the Zamasu arc should be weaker than Gogeta in Broly obviously, but for comparison a Gogeta Blue toyed with a Broly stronger than Jiren.

Initial Zamasu is weaker than Kaioken Blue X10 Goku.

Corrupted Zamasu I have around first Omen Goku but reaches the second Omen Goku when he goes big.

[Thani]

Black and Zamasu > Caulifla and Kale [the two girls dream of having the feats against SSB Goku that Future Zamasu had, they stood no chance vs. SSG Goku]

So by simple logic Fused Zamasu > Kefla at the bare minimum.

There is also a rule introduced in the ToP arc that a fused being's strength is also determined by how well the two fusées cooperate, hence why Beerus wanted to have 17 and 18 fuse to create "Android 35", due to being twins and thus having brilliant coordination, which would create a very powerful fighter. They didn't do it in the end though because Whis noted that if they lost then they'd lose 2 fighters instead of 1, so it was too risky.

Anyway following this rule we know that Fused Zamasu is an exceptionally strong fused being since, well, he's the fusion of Zamasu and Zamasu. Being the same person, their coordination is noted to be perfect and flawless. I think this is a very underrated aspect of Fused Zamasu, being the fusion of literally the same person, following Beerus' rule he ought to be incredibly powerful. And he certainly showed it against Vegito Blue.

Since Fused Zamasu > Kefla, I can see him putting up a very good fight against Ep. 116 Omen Goku, and possibly outlasting despite his partially-mortal body. It's implied that Kefla's attacks were extremely lethal to Goku, so that he had to dodge them very carefully (he even looked worried at one point that he might get hit), so Fused Zamasu who has way stronger fusées should easily replicate that kind of firepower. If he gets a good hit on Goku he should win comfortably.

I'd say only Full Power Jiren and MUI Goku can beat Fused Zamasu most of the times, and even then we have to consider anti-feats like Jiren being hurt by Android 17.

I somewhat agree with this, Fused Zamasu is at bare minimum stronger than SS Kefla by virtue of having stronger fusees alone.

It is worth noting, however, that Kale's super saiyan is unique and made a very weak saiyan become an exceptionally strong super saiyan. With proper training, who knows how strong Kale (and Kefla by extension) could have become.

Fusion Zamasu is also constantly using SSR, which must be noted. A fused being whose base state is, at minimum, extremely close to Black in SSGSS, when using that very transformation, would become exponentially stronger.

To me he could stand up to Jiren, UI Goku and the Gods of Destruction in general, he managed to hold his own against SSB Vegito after all, but his performance wouldn't be too different - he would be forced to go all out but still be the clear underdog in that fight, but with the advantage of pseudo-immortality backing him up and allowing to perhaps endure enough to outlast his foe. I imagine his hits would hurt anyone in the GoD range if he landed them, too, at his full power.

So in other words, I would put him on the general range of GoD Toppo, SS2 Kefla and Anilaza (all from the anime), his position there being up to debate.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It's important to note that it seemed like only Fused Zamasu's corrupted half was able to go toe-to-toe with SSB Vegito at first; it was the side that got massively larger and stronger after Goku initially broke his halo.

The rest of him needed to catch up, which reduced his speed but at least put his full body up to snuff with his corrupted half.

[ZombieVito]

It's important to note that it seemed like only Fused Zamasu's corrupted half was able to go toe-to-toe with SSB Vegito at first; it was the side that got massively larger and stronger after Goku initially broke his halo.

The rest of him needed to catch up, which reduced his speed but at least put his full body up to snuff with his corrupted half.

I remember saying this a long time ago. He only managed to stand up to Vegetto thanks to his corrupted arm. It's the part of him that is shown to do damage to him.

And it makes sense. An immortal being shouldn't get stronger since he's "stuck in time" so to speak but since Fused Zamasu is also composed of Goku Black then only half of him gets damaged and grows stronger as a result. That purple goo is the result of dead matter getting regenerated but not quite much as it's immortal half.

This also explains how Future Trunks manages to beat him. He only overpowers the weaker half of Fused Zamasu that used the ki blade.

[Goku9001]

Didn't Kaioshin state that Jiren was the strongest power he ever sensed as of episode 110?

[Thani]

Didn't Kaioshin state that Jiren was the strongest power he ever sensed as of episode 110?

Not literally, but it can be interpreted like that. He said that Jiren's "different from every opponent [Goku] faced until now. He's strong, simple as that".

We obviously know that Jiren's full power is amongst the Gods of Destruction, and at the moment Shin made his statement he, Jiren, wasn't unveiling his full power. Still, every God there was also aware of this fact.

So we have two options. Either Fused Zamasu is weaker than that Jiren, and thus weaker than every appearance of UI-Sign- Goku - and, by extension, SS2 Kefla - or he's "merely" weaker than Jiren's full power, and this is what Shin was thinking when he said his line.

I personally think it's the second option, since he gave SSB Vegito a challenge. I don't see SSB Vegito ranking lower than UI Sign Goku and a heavily suppressed Jiren

[ZombieVito]

The way the line is translated in Spanish gives me the impression that Shin was talking about the attribute of Jiren Ki's. It's simplicity.

Similar to how Goku said Moro's Ki felt like a lot of people screaming in agony. Jiren's Ki just feels simple.

[Goku9001]

Not literally, but it can be interpreted like that. He said that Jiren's "different from every opponent [Goku] faced until now. He's strong, simple as that".

We obviously know that Jiren's full power is amongst the Gods of Destruction, aFnd at the moment Shin made his statement he, Jiren, wasn't unveiling his full power. Still, every God there was also aware of this fact.

So we have two options. Either Fused Zamasu is weaker than that Jiren, and thus weaker than every appearance of UI-Sign- Goku - and, by extension, SS2 Kefla - or he's "merely" weaker than Jiren's full power, and this is what Shin was thinking when he said his line.

I personally think it's the second option, since he gave SSB Vegito a challenge. I don't see SSB Vegito ranking lower than UI Sign Goku and a heavily suppressed Jiren

Makes sense. Every god was aware of Jiren holding back and likely was extrapolating his full power based on the rumors of a mortal surpassing a GoD and how easily he was forcing back Goku's Genkidama, so Kaioshin's statement was likely referencing his potential full power rather than what he was using now.

Looking back on it, I think Merged Zamasu being weaker than Kefla is debatable as it is predicated on our perspective as to how much Goku had grown since the beginning of the Tournament of Power up until Ep. 116. SSJ Kale after controlling her power was stated to be even stronger than when she was berserk and SSJ2 Goku was capable of battling against both Kale and SSJ2 Caulifa.

On the contrary, Berserk SSJ Kale was capable of overpowering a Suppressed SSJB Goku at the start of the tournament which should logically be beyond Super Saiyan God. This coincides with the manga's perspective on Kale's strength in addition to Jiren needing to step in to halt Kale's rampage despite refraining from battle. The former can easily be explained by having SSJ2 Goku surpass his previous SSJG self, which coincides with SSJB KKx20 Goku battling SSJ Kefla whose power rivaled SSJB KKx20 Goku's Genkidama previously as well as UI Omen Goku (116) being much stronger than UI Omen Goku (110).

Controlled SSJ Kale could arguably be on SSJB Goku's level (Post-Black), but SSJ2 Caulifa likely wouldn't be as strong as Future Zamasu who should roughly be on Blue level as well. Merged Zamasu could be stronger than SSJ2 Kefla and has pseudo-immortality on top of that to give him the edge. I'd wager that Merged Zamasu is likely somewhere between SSJ2 Kefla and UI Omen Goku (116). Merged Zamasu would still defeat UI Omen Goku (116) as he lacks the attack power needed to defeat Merged Zamasu.