Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'm positive the new movie will place Base Piccolo way below SSJB, probably around golden SSJ forms at best, but until I actually see the movie I'll be taking his feats against Saganbo face value.

I didn't consider Freeza because we have no idea of how strong he really is currently. With that potential he could easily be on the same level as Goku and Vegeta currently. I think he was considerably stronger than Goku and Vegeta in the Broly movie, but not enough to take them both at once with their beyond SSJB powers.

[Thani]

I'm positive the new movie will place Base Piccolo way below SSJB, probably around golden SSJ forms at best, but until I actually see the movie I'll be taking his feats against Saganbo face value.

I didn't consider Freeza because we have no idea of how strong he really is currently. With that potential he could easily be on the same level as Goku and Vegeta currently. I think he was considerably stronger than Goku and Vegeta in the Broly movie, but not enough to take them both at once with their beyond SSJB powers.

Another thing I don't particularly mind.

Freeza being individually stronger than either Goku or Vegeta (in SSB, of course) is something I'm really ok with.

[dragonball0900]

I'm positive the new movie will place Base Piccolo way below SSJB, probably around golden SSJ forms at best, but until I actually see the movie I'll be taking his feats against Saganbo face value.

I didn't consider Freeza because we have no idea of how strong he really is currently. With that potential he could easily be on the same level as Goku and Vegeta currently. I think he was considerably stronger than Goku and Vegeta in the Broly movie, but not enough to take them both at once with their beyond SSJB powers.

I also agree with the idea that Golden Frieza was already stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta, but not strong enough to defeat them both at the same time.

As for Piccolo, I have him in the Moro Saga way stronger than SSJ3 tier at least (given how he was stronger than 17, who was only above SSJ3 tier). But he would still be below SSG tier. That leaves enough room for Piccolo's potential unlocked form to be SSB tier.

[ZombieVito]

I'm baffled people still believe 17 is SS3 tier.

Like how?



You would think Goku saying 17 was almost as strong as them should be enough for people but I guess not.

I think he was considerably stronger than Goku and Vegeta in the Broly movie, but not enough to take them both at once with their beyond SSJB powers.

Any reason why you think that?

[Koitsukai]

Freeza is above SSB ever since RoF, leaving Goku no other option but stall. He lasted longer against SS Broly, as well. But I wouldn't say he is that much stronger. Somewhat stronger is fine.

Golden Freeza seemed to have similar problems as SSB, he perfected the form in hell and got rid of the stamina issue, Goku did so on Future Earth, so the RoF gap might still be there.
Although, after the Moro arc, Freeza would need to put in extra hours to be above current SSB tier.

I'm baffled people still believe 17 is SS3 tier.

Like how?

You would think Goku saying 17 was almost as strong as them should be enough for people but I guess not.

Because he was never shown doing anything else and androids have no ki for Goku to sense. So Goku witnessed nothing and cannot feel anything, yet has some vague statement as a conclusion. You can see how unrealiable that comes across, right?
He probably is SSG level or on his way there, and that's it. Above SS3.

[ZombieVito]

Freeza is above SSB ever since RoF, leaving Goku no other option but stall. He lasted longer against SS Broly, as well. But I wouldn't say he is that much stronger. Somewhat stronger is fine.

Golden Freeza seemed to have similar problems as SSB, he perfected the form in hell and got rid of the stamina issue, Goku did so on Future Earth, so the RoF gap might still be there.
Although, after the Moro arc, Freeza would need to put in extra hours to be above current SSB tier.

I'm baffled people still believe 17 is SS3 tier.

Like how?

You would think Goku saying 17 was almost as strong as them should be enough for people but I guess not.

Because he was never shown doing anything else and androids have no ki for Goku to sense. So Goku witnessed nothing and cannot feel anything, yet has some vague statement as a conclusion. You can see how unrealiable that comes across, right?
He probably is SSG level or on his way there, and that's it. Above SS3.

No one could sense Ki in early Dragon Ball and they still did correct strength measurements. So did Ginyu on the Freeza arc and Korin in the Cell arc. Goku has been a martial artist all his life so yes, I trust his strength comment about 17. Especially when it's never contradicted by Vegeta.

I don't take Freeza lasting an hour against Broly as him being stronger than Goku and Vegeta. It's endurance is really OP so it can easily be the explanation for it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

As far as Freeza is concerned, I stick with the Tournament of Power's alignments.

In comparable forms, Freeza is dead-even with Goku and Vegeta in overall power, and none of that has changed yet in any of the material following the ToP to me personally.

Making equivalences has been a fairly consistent trend in DB lately. SSB, Golden Freeza, Toppo, and Ikari Broly; Super Saiyan Gogeta and Broly; 17, Ultimate Gohan, and Ultimate Piccolo.

It's a good and effective way to give some solid power levels without needing to put in the work in figuring out the specific rankings on the part of the writers.

[Koitsukai]

Freeza is above SSB ever since RoF, leaving Goku no other option but stall. He lasted longer against SS Broly, as well. But I wouldn't say he is that much stronger. Somewhat stronger is fine.

Golden Freeza seemed to have similar problems as SSB, he perfected the form in hell and got rid of the stamina issue, Goku did so on Future Earth, so the RoF gap might still be there.
Although, after the Moro arc, Freeza would need to put in extra hours to be above current SSB tier.

I'm baffled people still believe 17 is SS3 tier.

Like how?

You would think Goku saying 17 was almost as strong as them should be enough for people but I guess not.

Because he was never shown doing anything else and androids have no ki for Goku to sense. So Goku witnessed nothing and cannot feel anything, yet has some vague statement as a conclusion. You can see how unrealiable that comes across, right?
He probably is SSG level or on his way there, and that's it. Above SS3.

No one could sense Ki in early Dragon Ball and they still did correct strength measurements. So did Ginyu on the Freeza arc and Korin in the Cell arc. Goku has been a martial artist all his life so yes, I trust his strength comment about 17. Especially when it's never contradicted by Vegeta.

I don't take Freeza lasting an hour against Broly as him being stronger than Goku and Vegeta. It's endurance is really OP so it can easily be the explanation for it.

How do you know Karin cannot sense ki? if Goku went to him for that, and he got an answer, then he had learned how to do it by then. Ginyu had some sort of understanding of how ki-sensing worked, and he was also completely off the mark, so there's that. Like Goku about Broly and Beerus, so this wouldn't be Goku's first fumble.

Ningen can gauge other ningen's power. We are talking about androids here, with no ki at all, and no fights (against an almost-strong-as-Goku dude) to base that comment from.

[ZombieVito]

How do you know Karin cannot sense ki? if Goku went to him for that, and he got an answer, then he had learned how to do it by then. Ginyu had some sort of understanding of how ki-sensing worked, and he was also completely off the mark, so there's that. Like Goku about Broly and Beerus, so this wouldn't be Goku's first fumble.

Ningen can gauge other ningen's power. We are talking about androids here, with no ki at all, and no fights (against an almost-strong-as-Goku dude) to base that comment from.

I supposed Karin can (I always assumed he couldn't in DB because it's Kami who teaches it to Goku not him) but Ginyu is never shown to do it. He can just suppressed his Ki and was he really "completely off the mark" estimating Goku's power? He says at first glance that Goku was at 60,000 but after fighting him he says Goku's max power would not go over 85,000 and he's very close to being true since Goku's max power is 90,000 without Kaioken.

In the Broly movie Goku said Broly MIGHT be stronger than Beerus. He wasn't sure. There's no might in his 17 comment and it's never contradicted by Vegeta so it's valid. That's all there is to it.

I'm having BoG flashbacks with Beerus saying Freeza > Base Goku and people refusing to accept it lol.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Any reason why you think that?

Assuming he didn't stop training it's only natural he'd make higher gains than Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta even expresses his worry about Freeza becoming too strong in the beginning of the movie. Can't be by much though since he decided to use Broly to beat the Saiyans instead of doing the job himself. The novel also says this:

Golden Frieza's punches were able to dull Broly's movements a bit if landed properly, and if he were to throw blows with all of his might, Broly would go for avoiding them.

Which sounds better than having Broly fly through your strongest attack without a scratch.

I supposed Karin can (I always assumed he couldn't in DB because it's Kami who teaches it to Goku not him) but Ginyu is never shown to do it. He can just suppressed his Ki and was he really "completely off the mark" estimating Goku's power? He says at first glance that Goku was at 60,000 but after fighting him he says Goku's max power would not go over 85,000 and he's very close to being true since Goku's max power is 90,000 without Kaioken.

Goku always knew how to sense Ki.

Spoiler:

The earliest case of Goku sensing power (As opposed to only a person's presence) was not long after he trained with Karin:

Chapter: 105, P9.6, P10.1
Kame-sennin: “Lo…looks like this will be an incredible match…!”
Goku (thinking): “He’s…strange. His power’s totally different from the other ones…!!”

Karin pretty obviously senses Goku's Ki when he goes to his tower too. Kami and Popo teached him how to use Ki sensing in combat to keep track of his opponent without his eyes:

Chapter: 164, P6.6
Popo: “You try to see things with only your eyes, so you couldn’t see Popo’s movements just now. A person’s presence, faint movements of air, and one’s intuition. It’s not seeing, but sensing. This is vital.”

Karin was teaching Goku a similar thing with the "try to catch me" thing, but it was a more simplistic approach.

[Koitsukai]

How do you know Karin cannot sense ki? if Goku went to him for that, and he got an answer, then he had learned how to do it by then. Ginyu had some sort of understanding of how ki-sensing worked, and he was also completely off the mark, so there's that. Like Goku about Broly and Beerus, so this wouldn't be Goku's first fumble.

Ningen can gauge other ningen's power. We are talking about androids here, with no ki at all, and no fights (against an almost-strong-as-Goku dude) to base that comment from.

I supposed Karin can (I always assumed he couldn't in DB because it's Kami who teaches it to Goku not him) but Ginyu is never shown to do it. He can just suppressed his Ki and was he really "completely off the mark" estimating Goku's power? He says at first glance that Goku was at 60,000 but after fighting him he says Goku's max power would not go over 85,000 and he's very close to being true since Goku's max power is 90,000 without Kaioken.

In the Broly movie Goku said Broly MIGHT be stronger than Beerus. He wasn't sure. There's no might in his 17 comment and it's never contradicted by Vegeta so it's valid. That's all there is to it.

I'm having BoG flashbacks with Beerus saying Freeza > Base Goku and people refusing to accept it lol.

Ginyu admits Goku must be the type of guy that can manipulate ki, so whatever he guesses, right or wrong, has nothing to do with how the story portrays ki-sensing, because he clearly has more skills than the scouter-dependent people.
But that's a different conversation, that's just sensing existing energy, this is sensing energy from a source without energy, something only another android was shown doing.

'Almost as strong' is as vague as you can get. It's not an absolute statement.
Is it the god realm only Gohan had reached and already sets them apart from most of the multiverse?
SSB level? he wasn't even stronger than Dyspo. He is somewhere in between SS3 and Dyspo, that is undeniable. Exactly how strong is up to the reader's interpretation, because Dyspo wasn't even scaled.

It makes much more sense to believe he is on the much more accessible realm of the gods, after being shown not beating a B-class fighter, than to think he is the first blue level fighter that has no feats or fights whatsoever.

It would also put Dyspo almost as strong as Goku and Vegeta, and from what we've seen, the only way for Dyspo to be there, is if the comment divides fighters in god level(Jiren, Goku, Vegeta, Hit, Toppo, Freeza, Gohan, Kefla) and regular level (Krilin, Roshi, etc.).

[dragonball0900]

Let's not forget that 17 couldn't even beat Dyspo. This same Dyspo was easily stomped by Kefla, who was equal to Gohan. And this Gohan was still not on SSB Goku and Vegeta's level, according to Krillin during the ToP and according to Piccolo during the Moro Arc (with Gohan stated to be the strongest person on Earth with Goku and Vegeta not present).

There's no way 17 could be Blue tier in the manga. If he fought Kefla he would have been stomped just like Dyspo was, and if he gets stomped by Kefla, who is Gohan's equal, then there's NO way he could be "almost as strong as" Goku and Vegeta, who are even stronger than Gohan and Kefla.

Just a note, but coincidentally the wafer cards also place 17 between SSJ3-SSG tier just like in the manga (these cards should not be trusted though, it's just funny that they seem to agree that 17 was not as strong as even SSG tier and was only above SSJ3 tier).

[Hugo Boss]

Just a note, but coincidentally the wafer cards also place 17 between SSJ3-SSG tier just like in the manga (these cards should not be trusted though, it's just funny that they seem to agree that 17 was not as strong as even SSG tier and was only above SSJ3 tier).

According to this set, SS3 is designed as pretty close to SSG. It doesn’t seem to be a mistake, because they printed the same number twice in the set. Unlike 18, who got a higher number than 17 in Cell Arc (probably they goofed off and switched them, Piccolo has the same number as 18, despite being equal to 17). In another set, 17 is designed as weaker than SS3. So, it seems, at least for now, the wafer stickers are suggesting 17 is actually between SS2~SS3 (pretty close to SS3 to be more precise).

[ZombieVito]

We didn't even see 17 and Dyspo fight...

This is seriously giving me BoG flashbacks. Fans giving out excuses for statements that are never contradicted in the show just because they don't agree with them.

[TobyS]

We didn't even see 17 and Dyspo fight...

This is seriously giving me BoG flashbacks. Fans giving out excuses for statements that are never contradicted in the show just because they don't agree with them.

He's demonstrably not as strong as Evolution or UI so clearly Gokus "about as strong as us" is a much more general statement. Possibly even refering to the broader Dragon Team. "close to our power then his own android saga power" is contextually what they are saying.

Goku cannot sense Androids power here or when he is SSJ3 he is clearly deescalating the fight but he has no reason to fear the power ball or know to fear it if he should.

There's no reason to assume he is as op as the anime. Piccolo surpassing him by the Moro arc is much more plausible this way. And now these new card things as secondary evidence about how DB staff consider them.

[Thani]

Just gonna say that 17 was going to beat Dyspo. When Toppo was in a pinch and Dyspo went to the save, he said afterwards he had no energy left. Before then, he and 17 were fighting for a while with no clear victor in sight.

So it seems that 17 is at least as strong as Dyspo. But with infinite stamina, 17 would eventually win in a battle of attrition.

[Jack Bz]

Re: Goku's statement about 17's strength being as "strong as us" referring to the broader Dragon Team, Cipher actually did a post that had a more literal translation of Goku's line that refers to him exclusively:

“That #17 ... he hadn’t been doin’ anything special at all, but his strength wasn’t so far off from mine ... I wonder why...”

I find it hard to read a line like that without putting him at at least blue tier, but probably on the weaker end and not as strong as completed blue.

[Goku9001]

Android 17 wasn't presented as being as powerful as Golden Frieza, Hit, or Gohan but Goku's statement definitely seems to suggest that Android 17 was closing in on Super Saiyan Blue. I think that definitely places him roughly at Super Saiyan God or slightly higher at least. While Goku can't sense ki, Goku seems to have such a strong spiritual awareness which enabled him to see through Fat Buu's "fake ki" and extrapolate Beerus' power being beyond Vegetto (whom he could not sense either). He certainly could have gauged Android 17's abilities as he was fighting him during their battle.

[ZombieVito]

Re: Goku's statement about 17's strength being as "strong as us" referring to the broader Dragon Team, Cipher actually did a post that had a more literal translation of Goku's line that refers to him exclusively:

“That #17 ... he hadn’t been doin’ anything special at all, but his strength wasn’t so far off from mine ... I wonder why...”

I find it hard to read a line like that without putting him at at least blue tier, but probably on the weaker end and not as strong as completed blue.

Thank you.

Hopefully that ridiculous notion of 17 being SS3 tier can finally die now.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Android 17's strength seems to be best gauged based on his performance against Top.

Top like Golden Frieza was pretty much equal to a Super Saiyan Blue.

Android 17 was not as strong as Top but was certainly strong enough to hold his own and not embarrass himself so he's close but not quite there.

Like Ultimate Gohan.