Goku9001 wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 1:47 am
I've been giving this some thought however. If Merged Zamasu lost to SSJ2 Trunks' Spirit Sword which was comprised of all of the survivors in his timeline
That he did, but there are two things to note:
1) To be fair, it's stated that he was falling apart "physically" and "mentally". So he wasn't in his prime anymore. Would Trunks have beaten Zamasu if Vegito hadn't been weakening him, both physically (with his punches/kicks) and mentally (with his defiance and insults)? I doubt that.
2) And also, Zamasu limited himself to fighting Trunks with his Ki sword. Theoretically, there was nothing stopping Zamasu from just flying away and bombarding Trunks with ki blasts so that he couldn't reach him. There was no reason why Zamasu couldn't just nuke Trunks with a Holy Wrath, the same attack that would have overwhelmed Trunks in a 1v1 beam struggle. So would Trunks have defeated Zamasu, if Zamasu didn't want to just fight him in a sword battle? Again I doubt it.
That's why it's such a big deal that Zamasu was falling apart not just physically, but also mentally. He was completely clouded by rage, I believe Vegito at one point even noted how he was consumed by rage. He wasn't thinking logically and so this played a big part in his defeat.
That's why you can't use the reverse argument, you can't discredit Zamasu by saying that he lost to Trunks because Trunks just came in to deal the final blow, it wasn't really a fight, it was Trunks literally just showing up at the end of the Zamasu vs. Vegito Blue fight to finish it after 99% of the work had already been done by Vegito.
then it's possible that SSJB Kaiokenx20 Goku's Genkidama reached the level of Vegetto Blue
This to me is impossible.
That Spirit Bomb is comprised of the energies of:
- Frieza
- Gohan
- 17
- 18
- Krillin
- Piccolo
- Master Roshi
- Tien
The only 3 people here who are not fodder are Frieza, Gohan, and 17.
For us to argue that the Spirit Bomb is = Vegito Blue, you'd have to believe that Frieza, Gohan, and 17, along with SSB Kaioken Goku, would be able to defeat Vegito Blue. I find that impossible to believe honestly. That would make Anilaza even stronger than Vegito Blue, since he was fighting those 3 guys plus Goku and Vegeta, and I'm sure no one believes Anilaza > Vegito Blue.
Last I checked, the general consensus was that Fused Zamasu > Anilaza, after all.
, then Kefla is definitively above Vegetto Blue and Merged Zamasu
But how?
To be honest, I could just argue in favour of Vegito Blue, since F. Zamasu moves up the power ladder (or down) with Vegito, since they were somewhat relative for portions of the fight.
So how can Kefla be stronger than Vegito Blue? Even if we want to argue that Berserk Kale is equal to SSB Goku, in the end Kale fused when she had controlled her Berserk form and, indeed, we see that when Kefla bulks up, she doesn't go insane like Kale did. The "controlled" Kale was no match for SSG Goku even with Caulifla's help.
Plus, narrative-wise, shouldn't the Controlled Kale be stronger than when she went Berserk? I mean, in an anime, when a given character masters or learns to control a certain form without going insane, it means they have reached an even greater level of power. So we are indeed led to believe that Kale was at her strongest, when she was beaten in a 1v2 by SSG Goku...
Btw, I haven't seen those episodes in years, but the only reason why Berserk Kale has hype is because she walked through a kamehameha from SSB Goku, right? I remember people were quite mad when that aired, but isn't it obvious that Goku was suppressing himself massively? Like he was doing vs. Krillin and Android 17 in their sparring sessions? He was sparring with the Saiyan girls and testing their strength, after all.
I think Kale is definitely stronger than SSJR Goku Black especially by the time she masters her Super Saiyan form
Is there a reason why you think this? A Toei producer said that Goku Black was the "Strongest character except for Beerus" (and Whis, I'd assume), this was the statement and it was translated as I just told you:
So we know that by statement and hype Goku Black is stronger than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta. He is the strongest fighter at the time, except for Beerus and Whis. This is reiterated in the show itself by Gowasu, who called Goku Black "The Most Powerful".
How is Goku Black losing to Kale? Let's not argue Berserk Kale, because in the end she wasn't Berserk when she fused. How is he losing to someone who was beaten by SSG Goku in a 1v2?
"pathetic SSJ2 form"
I mean, am I wrong ? I'll admit that I'm somewhat salty that SS2 Kefla has such feats (I always found it dumb that she could challenge ULTRA INSTINCT, the manga was more believable as far as Kefla is concerned), but when was the last time SS2 was relevant? The early Buu arc? It's long been surpassed.
The bottom line here is that, if a SS2 fusion can pressure UI Goku, then so can a SSB fusion and a SSRosé fusion. And so Vegito and Zamasu aren't surpassed by Suppressed Jiren and the Initial UI Goku.