Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

It is ironic that some version of the "two base theory" turned out to be true for the manga. Base Goku with UI is roughly equal to Super Saiyan Vegeta, but when Vegeta told him to dodge Granolah's blasts using his mind, he needed Super Saiyan to match him. I figure the same might be true of Vegeta's spirit amplification.

This makes me wonder tho, how do people here see the uses of the UI in lower forms by Goku?

He was able to match Super Saiyan Vegeta in terms reaction speed, but it never seemed to me that his power actually grew. Using the current arc as an example, Granolah and Super Saiyan Blue Goku were roughly on the same level in terms of strength, but even tho Goku used UI + Blue later he still ended up needing Perfected Ultra Instinct to gain the edge in the fight.

Basically, it seems to me that Goku using UI + other forms is able to fight much better against stronger opponents, but he would probably lack the firepower to defeat them

[Goku9001]

So, basically, the disagreement comes from statements vs feats.
Is it fair to say those feats are mostly based on the interpretation of Goku's image training? If we remove that, would the Trunks comment have a less convoluted interpretation? while there might be some other feats, this one seems to be the mother of them all. And it happens to be something that takes place inside Goku's head, not in the actual db world.

I can see the problem with base characters doing crazy stuff, but that's just fiction for you. The power difference is made up, so it's not always there like some type of underlying truth that forces things to have to be worked around them. It's the byproduct of the story, so it doesn't always add up and that's fine.
Goku bruising Hit after a cheap shot in base doesn't mean his base is any stronger than it should be, he still needs SS to keep up with the time skip, not to mention his expertise is always helping him out, and that also wasn't your run of the mill fight.
His shunkanido being faster than Zamasu's reaction means nothing or isn't new either, it was already faster than 2nd form Cell, it's independent of his power.
We do not know how strong Shin actually is, or any of the other Kaioshins, we know he is stronger than Freeza, and we know Goku should be too, after BoG, and that's it. There's no firm ground to back up anything involving Shin.

That's part of it. The disagreement lies in what Goku's statement actually means in context. There are certainly elements at play here such as the image training sequence, Goku's eagerness to start the battle with Beerus as a Super Saiyan, Resurrection of F and constant training in Base with Whis, that if you were to recontextualize all of these instances just because of one statement would have ramifications on the story. Much like what would be the case if you interpreted Beerus' statement as a benchmark for Super Saiyan 2 Goku merely because he only claimed that he could see how Goku defeated Frieza upon transforming into a Super Saiyan 2. Such would have ramifications on the story so we can't simply claim Super Saiyan Goku can't beat Frieza just because we feel that is the more direct, straightforward assumption to make in regards to the author's intent when he made that statement.

My argument would simply be that the statement merely means that Trunks is vaguely stronger than Gohan and that Gohan was used as a benchmark because he is the strongest mutual reference that Trunks would be aware of. In context, Goku offers to spar with Trunks because Goku wanted to see how powerful he was compared to Trunks, and use that as a reference to assess Black's power. Therefore, Goku wanted to see everything Trunks had to offer before assessing his power. That's why Trunks clarifies to Goku that regular Super Saiyan 2 wasn't just his limit. It doesn't mean that Base or SSJ Trunks aren't stronger than Gohan in the same way it can be inferred for Buu Arc Goku compared to Gohan.

Trunks never used his full Base or Super Saiyan power when battling Goku. Toriyama deemed it as irrelevant, unlike in the case where Goku presents himself as a Super Saiyan to Vegeta, used a Super Saiyan 2 Burst that surpassed his Pre-Majin power, yet only Goku's Full Power Super Saiyan 2 was stated to have surpassed Gohan. The inclusion of Piccolo's comparison between Vegeta and Gohan is the final nail in coffin that lends itself to the notion that Vegeta/Goku were in the ballpark of Gohan. We do not have that context here nor a comparison that strictly places Trunks within that ballpark. Trunks is simply stronger than Gohan and you would have to look elsewhere to suggest that Trunks was relative to Gohan.

[Koitsukai]

How strong do you think Gamma 1 & 2 will be? Stronger than Zamasu, but weaker than Jiren and Broly would be my guess.

It depends on how strong Gohan and Piccolo will be, but with the retread of his characterization, people stronger than Zamasu might not be necessary. If it follows the manga, somehow, then yes, they should be stronger than Zamasu to challenge Gohan. If it follows the anime, then they won't be stronger than Zamasu.

We don't even know how strong our guys will be after their power unlock. They could be SSG level for all we know, but I doubt it when the other media has Gohan around SSB. It'll be the first time we see DBS Gohan's full power written by Toriyama, so who knows?.
The Gammas, probably strong enough to challenge a SSB, would be my guess.

[Xeno Goku Black]

I don't place too much emphasis on it but didn't marketing state that Gamma 1 and 2 were the mightiest androids? That should put them above Android 17 who was somewhat close to Blue level.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't place too much emphasis on it but didn't marketing state that Gamma 1 and 2 were the mightiest androids? That should put them above Android 17 who was somewhat close to Blue level.

Assuming it’s coherent with 17’s strength as it was handled in the anime and manga, sure. But since the movie apparently follows an outline in which Gohan can’t access Ultimate at will, maybe it’s not considering 17 to be that much strong either. The movie could shed some light on the matter if 17 takes part in the fight, at least 18 is in it. I usually don’t put much stock in promotional hype lines anyway, so I will wait.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Maybe Gohan has lost access to it again like he did before? Being useless as he is.

[Hugo Boss]

Maybe Gohan has lost access to it again like he did before? Being useless as he is.

Gohan only trains when he is needed and he can go back in shape quickly. And despite having other priorities (family, work) he never refuses to fight if the situation demands. So, I don’t understand this sentiment that he is useless.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Maybe Gohan has lost access to it again like he did before? Being useless as he is.

Gohan only trains when he is needed and he can go back in shape quickly. And despite having other priorities (family, work) he never refuses to fight if the situation demands. So, I don’t understand this sentiment that he is useless.

Because he's had to go through the same thing multiple times now to no avail.

He stopped training and as a result ran into more popular upon Frieza's return than need be, almost died and Piccolo died. So after that he was trained up by Piccolo again.

Then in the Zeno Exhibition he merely drew against Lavender so had to be trained up by Piccolo again.

Then apparently even after the ToP and Moro (which the movie doesn't give a shit about) and how they were almost wiped out, he stopped training yet again to which Piccolo has to train him yet again for another threat.

[Koitsukai]

I think we can assume none of that happened to Movie Gohan, and he is going to regain his Ultimate form for the first time in his life. Toriyama seems to give two fucks and a half about non-movie DBS. There was no need for Gohan to be part of the Moro arc, yet he had no quarrels with Toyo including him, even though he had already plans for Gohan since 2018.

The franchise seems to be like a house supported by two (three) parents who don't speak to each other and do their own thing. One brings pizza for dinner, the other one brings lasagna. Although, they seem to be bringing fucking pizza everyday.

[ZombieVito]

How strong do you think Gamma 1 & 2 will be? Stronger than Zamasu, but weaker than Jiren and Broly would be my guess.

Fused Zamasu? No way lol.

They will probably be comparable to SSB Goku from the Broly movie. Perhaps a little stronger than that.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think we can assume none of that happened to Movie Gohan, and he is going to regain his Ultimate form for the first time in his life. Toriyama seems to give two fucks and a half about non-movie DBS. There was no need for Gohan to be part of the Moro arc, yet he had no quarrels with Toyo including him, even though he had already plans for Gohan since 2018.

The franchise seems to be like a house supported by two (three) parents who don't speak to each other and do their own thing. One brings pizza for dinner, the other one brings lasagna. Although, they seem to be bringing fucking pizza everyday.

I think we might be getting Taco Bell tonight actually

[Hugo Boss]

Maybe Gohan has lost access to it again like he did before? Being useless as he is.

Gohan only trains when he is needed and he can go back in shape quickly. And despite having other priorities (family, work) he never refuses to fight if the situation demands. So, I don’t understand this sentiment that he is useless.

Because he's had to go through the same thing multiple times now to no avail.

I know this is a recurring theme, but as Koitsukai said above, the three continuities aren’t dialoguing with each other and this is likely a retelling of Gohan’s development from the beginning of Tournament of Power arc.

Still, I don’t see how this makes Gohan useless. If anything, it just shows that while Gohan is not always strong enough to protect Earth against threats stronger than Super Saiyans, he finds a way to be useful. Let’s not forget he is not Goku or Vegeta. It’s not his desire or duty to best himself day after day on strength department, he has other things to worry about.

[dragonball0900]

How strong do you think Gamma 1 & 2 will be? Stronger than Zamasu, but weaker than Jiren and Broly would be my guess.

Gamma 1 and Gamma 2 are stated to be the strongest androids of all. That includes Android 17, who was SSB tier in the anime.

Gohan was equal to Android 17 in the ToP in the anime, and this Gohan from Super Hero is said to be the strongest version of all, so he should be above what he was in the ToP. The Gammas scale to this same Gohan. Piccolo in his new form would be that strong too.

So I would say the Gammas are definitely above ToP SSB Goku and Vegeta, probably around SSBKKX2 tier. But they are nowhere near Fused Zamasu from the anime, who managed to put up a fight with SSB Vegito (unless you are talking about the manga version of Fused Zamasu, who is only CSSB tier).

[Goku9001]

I believe Gamma 1 and Gamma 2 should be stronger than Android 17 to constitute a dangerous threat that would require a significant build-up leading into Ultimate Gohan to defeat. I can't imagine Gamma 1 and Gamma 2 being a significant threat here if Android 17 was able to take them out.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

So it seems that Vegeta brings up Jiren in the movie and the translations are conflicting but it seems to be about Jiren being a benchmark that Vegeta hasn't reached. Not confirmed yet though. The movie chronologically takes place after the Granola arc where Ultra Ego was introduced so I'm wondering how this would affect people's scaling if post Granola arc Vegeta admits inferiority to Jiren. The movies are in a weird place where it looks like it's following an anime only timeline of TOP>Broly>Superhero, but it's also put on an official timeline with manga arcs.

[Cipher]

I'll see it tomorrow.

But the movie is/was always going to wind up in that "squint and it fits in" sense, as far as strict alignment with either serialized version.

Jiren could absolutely still be on the table as a "strong guy we have to watch out for/motivator," without absolutely invalidating the manga. Keep in mind the ToP finished without anyone squarely beating him; he even won out against UI Goku.

(But also ... it was written prior to the Moro arc being concluded and Granolah starting, so you're going to have to accept viewing some things generously on that front.)

[Xeno Goku Black]

On a bit of an unrelated note, why is Ultra Instinct stronger than Super Saiyan Blue?

The whole thing about it is that it allows the user to move without the user thinking.

But where does the power increase actually come from? What is the source of the power up? Is he tapping into some other kind of Ki?

[Koitsukai]

On a bit of an unrelated note, why is Ultra Instinct stronger than Super Saiyan Blue?

The whole thing about it is that it allows the user to move without the user thinking.

But where does the power increase actually come from? What is the source of the power up? Is he tapping into some other kind of Ki?

The effectiveness of his movements makes the difference. Jiren mentioned that attacks that take advantage of openings isn't real power.
His attacks are faster, sharper and hit where they need to, in order to deal the most damage.

In the Moro arc, more stuff was added, like the fact that the body becomes harder and can break your fucking arm, and that it uses divine ki as fuel.

But basically, it's Goku not wasting any movements, he hits you with full force on the softest spot of your kidney, while with other forms he hits the muscle surrounding the kidney, or on the hardest spot of it, sorta speak. And the force used is kinda wasted, so with UI, because everything is perfectly aligned, the damage dealt is 100%(or will be, once he masters his own UI) and with SSB it's much less. At least, that's how I interpret it.

[Thani]

On a bit of an unrelated note, why is Ultra Instinct stronger than Super Saiyan Blue?

The whole thing about it is that it allows the user to move without the user thinking.

But where does the power increase actually come from? What is the source of the power up? Is he tapping into some other kind of Ki?

The effectiveness of his movements makes the difference. Jiren mentioned that attacks that take advantage of openings isn't real power.
His attacks are faster, sharper and hit where they need to, in order to deal the most damage.

In the Moro arc, more stuff was added, like the fact that the body becomes harder and can break your fucking arm, and that it uses divine ki as fuel.

But basically, it's Goku not wasting any movements, he hits you with full force on the softest spot of your kidney, while with other forms he hits the muscle surrounding the kidney, or on the hardest spot of it, sorta speak. And the force used is kinda wasted, so with UI, because everything is perfectly aligned, the damage dealt is 100%(or will be, once he masters his own UI) and with SSB it's much less. At least, that's how I interpret it.

All of that being said, the Silver UI is also being treated as a different transformation for Goku, so there's the source of power for it.

[Xeno Goku Black]

But his Ki blasts are drastically more powerful as well so how's that work?