Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

If Base Goku, Vegeta and Broly all fight an evenly matched battle in Super Hero then does that mean that Goku and Vegeta have grown dozens of times more powerful since the Broly movie considering that in that Base Broly was around the same level as Super Saiyan?

Super Hero Base Goku / Vegeta > Broly Super Saiyan Goku / Vegeta?

No.

It's a training match.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Doesn't mean anyone has to be holding back.

[Draconic]

If they're teaching Broly how to control his powers, it might end up with a weaker base Broly, with a very powerful Super Saiyan form, equivalent to Blue. So Broly would still be the crazy powerhouse type when using FPSSJ, but his power level progression would be similar to the normal saiyans.

So regular base Broly would only be as strong as Goku and Vegeta. If he loses control, his powers go out and can become as strong as a Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta in base. But the downside is, of course, the fact he can't actually control it and bring it to its maximum potential.

[Koitsukai]

While they could be holding back, I don't see why that would happen in a training session when the goal is to better oneself, perhaps Broly needs to learn how to hold his punches in order to control his latent power. We need to watch the movie first to comment on it.

However, Goku and Vegeta's base level skyrocketed in the last 2 arcs. Geets aligned his spirit with his body, and Goku was seen training with Merus only in base, in order to activate UI again, and by now he can use UI in base with a similar effect as if he was using SS.
So, their bases, right before EoZ, being on a SS level isn't a ludicrous concept.
If it weren't for the fact that this was written 4 years prior to those developments, and that the manga might be overlooked, base Goku being on par with SS Goku from the Broly arc would actually make sense to me.

This brings me to this question: how strong, compared to Z, do you guys have SS Goku from the Broly arc?
Some believe he was already Buu level even before meeting Beerus, so by then he should be SS4 Goku level or so, but for those who believe his gains throughout DBS were small, who could he beat from Z, with just SS?

[Mr Baggins]

This kind of thing also depends on what their training even entails. Are they teaming up against base Broly or sparring free-for-all style? We haven't actually had much indication as to what they're doing.

I say we wait for the movie to be released first. I'm going to see it in August, so I won't be personally chiming in until then.

However, Goku and Vegeta's base level skyrocketed in the last 2 arcs. Geets aligned his spirit with his body, and Goku was seen training with Merus only in base, in order to activate UI again, and by now he can use UI in base with a similar effect as if he was using SS.
So, their bases, right before EoZ, being on a SS level isn't a ludicrous concept.

It is ironic that some version of the "two base theory" turned out to be true for the manga. Base Goku with UI is roughly equal to Super Saiyan Vegeta, but when Vegeta told him to dodge Granolah's blasts using his mind, he needed Super Saiyan to match him. I figure the same might be true of Vegeta's spirit amplification.

[Xeno Goku Black]

but for those who believe his gains throughout DBS were small, who could he beat from Z, with just SS?

Everyone? If Base Goku could effortlessly trump SSJ3 Gotenks back in the U6 arc then even at that point as a Super Saiyan the only character who could stand even any chance would have been Super Vegito.

[Yuji]

The power leap between SS Broly and LSS Broly doesn't seem that huge. Could learning how to turn SS2 or 3 actually yield more benefit?

[Cipher]

This brings me to this question: how strong, compared to Z, do you guys have SS Goku from the Broly arc?
Some believe he was already Buu level even before meeting Beerus, so by then he should be SS4 Goku level or so, but for those who believe his gains throughout DBS were small, who could he beat from Z, with just SS?

Cell, maybe?

If you don’t believe Goku starts Super out any stronger than the Boo arc, there’s nothing indicating radical gains for him outside of better uses of Blue until the Moro arc. All of his improvements are attributed specifically to his higher forms.

I hedge my bets even with Cell, honestly, given the SS2 dialogue argued extensively over the last few pages. The series never indicates substantial growth outside of better uses for God and Blue until the Moro arc. (And then it’s explicit about it.)

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If Base Goku, Vegeta and Broly all fight an evenly matched battle in Super Hero then does that mean that Goku and Vegeta have grown dozens of times more powerful since the Broly movie considering that in that Base Broly was around the same level as Super Saiyan?

Super Hero Base Goku / Vegeta > Broly Super Saiyan Goku / Vegeta?

They made some solid gains in the Moro and Granolah Sagas, but a sparring isn’t serious evidence unless it’s noted to be a no holds barred one.

The power leap between SS Broly and LSS Broly doesn't seem that huge. Could learning how to turn SS2 or 3 actually yield more benefit?

Assuming it’s the same form as Kale’s it might be something comparable to SSJ1 to 2. Broly did make Gogeta go straight to Blue, but his power was probably growing outside of the transformations.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Why would Broly of all people hold himself back while fighting?

[Thani]

Why would Broly of all people hold himself back while fighting?

Broly doesn't actually like to go berserk, so he could hold himself back to not lose himself in bloodlust?

[Goku9001]

Hey Cipher, I appreciate your response.

If the intent is for Super Saiyan 2 Trunks to be matching a Goku who is astronomically stronger than his Boo arc self, why would Goku's comparison to Gohan only come out after Trunks transforms into SS2? He'd have been stronger than Cell Games-era Gohan the whole time. And in those shocking circumstances, the more relevant comment would have been Goku comparing Trunks to himself.

That's by far the more immediate way to signal things to the reader in that case.

The Trunks scene is really what locks in no super-strong Goku/Vegeta approach being taken in the manga for me--(which means, yes, you need to assume slightly different events in its "F" equivalent to fit with its "Battle of Gods" changes)--we get an SS2 Trunks compared favorably to SS2 Gohan, only after he transforms, using homage dialogue last used to signal an SS2 who was also in Cell Games era Gohan's ballpark.

Sure, it's possible that he and Goku are both still wildly stronger than Cell Games-era Gohan in that scene, but then you have to assume that Goku decides to wait for the transformation to reveal that for no great reason, that we're mean to ignore the dialogue similarity, and that Toyotaro doesn't think there's anything strange about asking all those assumptions of the reader when just about any other approach could make the magnitude of their strength more clear. It requires so much reading against the grain, when the more immediate reading would be "Toyotaro gives us a scene that implies SS2 Trunks and Goku are in the original-run SS2 ballpark, because that's what he meant to do."

Like Skar, I don't have an issue with a super-duper strong Trunks showing up if the story wants to give us that. Just like I don't have an issue with the story telling us #17 and Freeza can make their infamous leaps in Super. I don't have an issue with it telling us Gohan can catch up to Super Saiyan Blue characters in his small amount of training leading up to the ToP. But it makes those things clear. I'm just not one to assume we're ever meant to read a scene that far around what its dialogue and comparisons imply. I think the idea that Trunks and Goku are in range of the SS2s we see in the original series is made about as clear as anything, really.

The whole purpose of the scene is to acknowledge how Trunks is much stronger warrior than Goku expected. Goku proposed the sparring session with Trunks to see where he stands so he can get an accurate evaluation of Trunks' abilities. His affirmation to Trunks is just acknowledgement of Trunks' progression and using the strongest mutual reference to nail that point across. Trunks' response to this doesn't stem from satisfaction and approval, it's an apathetic response. Trunks implies that it should be obvious, given that he had been training himself to death for ten years. That doesn't help prove that Trunks and Goku were in the ballpark of Gohan.

And your argument of what the author is pushing for doesn't really apply. Toyotaro had no issues establishing that Trunks was slightly better than Goku yet makes a vague comparison between Trunks and Gohan. The argument would hold water if Trunks gradually upped his power until he used Super Saiyan 2 against Goku but that's not what happened. Goku was intentionally made to be within the ballpark of Gohan back in the Buu Saga since there were previously established powers that were presented that had not been confirmed to be greater than Gohan (Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 Burst vs. Yakon). Goku only surpassing Gohan once he goes Super Saiyan 2 at Full Power rather than prior with Super Saiyan and his Super Saiyan 2 Burst is the narrative pushing us in a certain direction. There is no narrative push here. Goku isn't going to affirm anything until he sees Trunks' power. Trunks just uses Super Saiyan 2 and Goku affirms his progress after he believes he saw everything Trunks could do.

If we are forced to recontextualize certain events that go against the narrative such as Goku using God against Frieza, then your interpretation is not as intuitive as you might think it is.

We can't. Goku and Vegeta made significant gains during the Goku Black arc. Aside from that, I don't think Cabba would be capable of fending off the Pride Troopers the way Super Saiyan Goku could.

This is kind of external to any ongoing conversations, but for clarity: Neither Goku nor Vegeta are implied to have gotten significantly stronger in the Black arc (manga) outside of new uses for their transformations. The results of Vegeta's day in the Room of Spirit and Time are attributed entirely to his being able to do the rapid God-Blue switch (with Black even being confused by the fact that he doesn't seem to have gotten noticeably stronger, despite gaining the upper hand in their fight), and Goku spends his one day of training learning the Mafuba, then pulls out Completed Super Saiyan Blue as an untested experiment. They're stronger overall, by the end, but it's basically all attributed to learning how to use Blue more effectively, rather than becoming stronger across all their transformations in a traditional sense.

The Moro arc has the first training sequence in which Goku and Vegeta are unambiguously mentioned/shown to be stronger than they previously had been while in the same forms. (Or rather, first since their time in the RoSaT in the U6 arc, probably, although the results of that are kept ambiguous, and no one even references their having gotten particularly stronger.)

I disagree. The sensu bean was given to Vegeta for the sole purpose of improving his power, which indicates that power is what was Vegeta was lacking against SSJ Goku Black and not the repercussions he was experiencing with the form. Goku and Trunks all express disappointment once they realize that the sensu bean didn't have an effect on Vegeta's power and attribute his loss solely based on that. The narrative explicitly places an emphasis on power and this gap was further increased once Goku Black obtained Rose. This coincides with what Black says during his rematch with Vegeta, where he confirms that Vegeta had gotten faster.

Spoiler:

The only thing Goku says is that Blue cannot be maintained for that long but that's irrelevant to the point since SSJ Goku Black was shown to have the edge on Vegeta prior to his training even after Vegeta recovered his strength immediately.

Spoiler:

This is reinforced when Goku confronts Zamasu. Even after using energy for the Mafuba, Goku makes it a point that Super Saiyan Blue won't work for long , implying that there is a certain period of time where it will work i.e maintain his power before it teeters off.

Spoiler:

To be clear, I wasn't simply talking about context. I'm saying the very statement taken on its own isn't Beerus drawing a comparison for its own sake, unlike Goku's statement, which is, so it's not the same.

Subtext is beside the point. Just as the author didn't aim to compare Caulifla and Namek SS Goku until she fought in Super Saiyan, so too did the author not aim to compare Trunks and Gohan until he sparred using Super Saiyan 2. Evaluating whether Trunks used prior forms in-universe doesn't change the out-of-universe intent, which is readily apparent; if there's a direct strength comparison being made, then the form used to draw the comparison dictates its sufficiency. As has been said, the audience's expected takeaway isn't meant to be scrutinized beyond that.

If I wanted to look at surrounding context and evidence, it's even further supported, but that's all stuff I've already covered at length.

But again, this is just me clarifying my position. I have absolutely no intention to keep arguing about this specific thing anymore because I realize I've made my point. There's no elucidation required, and even if there was, I think there's a wealth of other evidence in the series to back it up. Whether you concur or don't concur is up to you, but man, there's no reason to repeat the same talking points like this for over five pages.

I agree with your position. Beerus' statement is clearly not intended to serve as a benchmark for Goku regardless of the comparison he draws between Goku and Frieza. The intended message is for Beerus to probe Goku and coax him into using more power which would result in the Super Saiyan God he was searching for. The context of Beerus' visit makes that very clear. Beerus visits Kaiosama in search of the Super Saiyan God. He is aware of Goku's Saiyan heritage and is privy to his Super Saiyan form. By default, the natural assumption is that Beerus intrigued by Goku and his transformations as it would lead him closer to the Super Saiyan God. This is why the default assumption inherently fails because Beerus' assertion of "I see how you defeated Frieza" emerging only after Goku uses Super Saiyan 2 is not evidence of Goku's inability to do so in weaker forms. Much like with the case of Goku's statement to Trunks, you're going to have to look a little deeper here rather blindly following generic statements.

Just to clarify, Frieza's comparison made between SSJ Caulifa to SSJ Goku (Namek) was used to establish that just because Frieza compared Caulifa to Namek Goku doesn't mean that is the only Super Saiyan. Whether you want to assume that this infers that Base Caulifa is weaker than SSJ Goku (Namek) is up to you. But, I would argue that this assumption is misguided given that Frieza's message was more of a means to convey to Caulifa that Super Saiyan isn't a shock to him as he's fought one in the past hence why he harkens back to his fight with Goku. Of course, if you omit the context, you can very well interpret it as a benchmark statement but it clearly isn't intended to be.

[Goku9001]

In regards to Broly, it seems based on the trailer, Broly is going to be using Ikari or Super Saiyan during his training given that he was emitting a green aura. He maintained a colorless aura until he was overpowered by God Vegeta. Afterwards, he obtained a green aura when harnessing the power of Oozaru and maintained it in both Super Saiyan and Full Power Super Saiyan. I think he will be using Super Saiyan during his training. Though, he will likely start out in Base at first.

[Skar]

I'm going solely based on the evidence the author has blatantly shown thus far which is relevant as all power comparisons are made based on the existing power structure thus far. My conclusion is simply that Trunks is merely stated to be stronger than Gohan with no additional subtext other than for Goku to acknowledge Trunks by using Gohan as the strongest mutual reference to reflect that. There is no information within that statement or context alone that constitutes Trunks being within the ballpark of Gohan nor does it require. The author makes it a clear point to suggest that Trunks was slightly better than Goku yet only admits to Trunks being stronger than Gohan. Aside from that, Trunks doesn't even fight Goku in Base or Super Saiyan so Goku acknowledging the only power Trunks used thus far doesn't tell us where his other powers stand. You're pushing this narrative that this is what the author intended with nothing to back it up. I'm not convinced here.

I'm going to have to agree to disagree at this point. It still feels like I'm being told to forget everything about how direct statements were read in the original series so reach these conclusions you're suggesting. I'm still not seeing why that's necessary or how the author would intend for that in every one of these statements.

[Goku9001]

I'm going solely based on the evidence the author has blatantly shown thus far which is relevant as all power comparisons are made based on the existing power structure thus far. My conclusion is simply that Trunks is merely stated to be stronger than Gohan with no additional subtext other than for Goku to acknowledge Trunks by using Gohan as the strongest mutual reference to reflect that. There is no information within that statement or context alone that constitutes Trunks being within the ballpark of Gohan nor does it require. The author makes it a clear point to suggest that Trunks was slightly better than Goku yet only admits to Trunks being stronger than Gohan. Aside from that, Trunks doesn't even fight Goku in Base or Super Saiyan so Goku acknowledging the only power Trunks used thus far doesn't tell us where his other powers stand. You're pushing this narrative that this is what the author intended with nothing to back it up. I'm not convinced here.

I'm going to have to agree to disagree at this point. It still feels like I'm being told to forget everything about how direct statements were read in the original series so reach these conclusions you're suggesting. I'm still not seeing why that's necessary or how the author would intend for that in every one of these statements.

Who said that? I acknowledged the statement for what it means. You're the one inserting your own subtext in it by equating it to a past instance that isn't remotely comparable. You can call it personal interpretation or whatever, but I'm not going to recontextualize all of the other instances in the manga just because of one statement which is nothing more than an affirmative statement made by Goku. I'm not forcing or insisting on anything. I simply disagree and I'll agree to disagree with you.

[Skar]

Who said that? I acknowledged the statement for what it means. You're the one inserting your own subtext in it by equating it to a past instance that isn't remotely comparable. You can call it personal interpretation or whatever, but I'm not going to recontextualize all of the other instances in the manga just because of one statement which is nothing more than an affirmative statement made by Goku. I'm not forcing or insisting on anything. I simply disagree and I'll agree to disagree with you.

It seems like we have a different reading of every direct statement. Besides Trunks, you disagreed with base Goku being compared to Freeza and Caulifa being compared fo SSJ Goku. They all fit together if interpreted as a straightforward comparison of their power. Base Goku and Caulifa would be weaker than Namek Freeza and Trunks would be Buu saga range which puts his base also below Freeza.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What about feats and proper lines that talk about the Base Saiyans? We got plenty of those in the table. Even if RoF was some mysteriously abridged version who this very careful and straightforward author forgot to explain, Base Goku was pulling off some feats Freeza could never hope to. Fights Hit and even bruises his face, saves Trunks and Kaioshin from Zamasu’s blasts, doesn’t get knocked out like any of the Kaioshins… You can’t say an implicit comparison is more straightforward than this stuff. And that’s not even going into the old stuff from DBZ everybody brings up every time Beerus’ line is discussed.

[Skar]

What about feats and proper lines that talk about the Base Saiyans? We got plenty of those in the table. Even if RoF was some mysteriously abridged version who this very careful and straightforward author forgot to explain, Base Goku was pulling off some feats Freeza could never hope to. Fights Hit and even bruises his face, saves Trunks and Kaioshin from Zamasu’s blasts, doesn’t get knocked out like any of the Kaioshins… You can’t say an implicit comparison is more straightforward than this stuff. And that’s not even going into the old stuff from DBZ everybody brings up every time Beerus’ line is discussed.

It depends if you think those implications are clearer than direct comparisons which is the whole disagreement. There have several ways those implications have been interpreted on here but the direct statements have a limited number of ways they could be read even including the less direct approaches.

[Koitsukai]

So, basically, the disagreement comes from statements vs feats.
Is it fair to say those feats are mostly based on the interpretation of Goku's image training? If we remove that, would the Trunks comment have a less convoluted interpretation? while there might be some other feats, this one seems to be the mother of them all. And it happens to be something that takes place inside Goku's head, not in the actual db world.

I can see the problem with base characters doing crazy stuff, but that's just fiction for you. The power difference is made up, so it's not always there like some type of underlying truth that forces things to have to be worked around them. It's the byproduct of the story, so it doesn't always add up and that's fine.
Goku bruising Hit after a cheap shot in base doesn't mean his base is any stronger than it should be, he still needs SS to keep up with the time skip, not to mention his expertise is always helping him out, and that also wasn't your run of the mill fight.
His shunkanido being faster than Zamasu's reaction means nothing or isn't new either, it was already faster than 2nd form Cell, it's independent of his power.
We do not know how strong Shin actually is, or any of the other Kaioshins, we know he is stronger than Freeza, and we know Goku should be too, after BoG, and that's it. There's no firm ground to back up anything involving Shin.

[Hellspawn28]

How strong do you think Gamma 1 & 2 will be? Stronger than Zamasu, but weaker than Jiren and Broly would be my guess.