Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Yuji]

We can scale Caulifla to be on Cabba's level and we know how Cabba compares to Vegeta.

We can't. Goku and Vegeta made significant gains during the Goku Black arc. Aside from that, I don't think Cabba would be capable of fending off the Pride Troopers the way Super Saiyan Goku could.

But Goku and Vegeta in the Goku Black arc are irrelevant. We know Cabba scales to Super Saiyans in the U6 arc and Caulifla scales to Cabba, and we have no reason to believe Cabba got significantly stronger. So both Cabba and Caulifla should be around U6 Super Saiyans or around Super Saiyans in the Goku Black arc pre-training, however strong you think they are.

I also am of the belief that until the Goku Black training, and later on the Moro training, Goku and Vegeta weren't much stronger than their Boo arc selves, so I would place the U6 Saiyans at Goku and Vegeta's level during the Boo arc, maybe the Cell Games if you think Vegeta was holding back a lot against Cabba.

[Skar]

Those are extreme close-up shots of both Goku and Vegeta's reactions. I would certainly say that is one detail worth considering when evaluating both of their statements. On top of Goku mentioning it afterwards. How Base and Super Saiyan compares to Gohan is irrelevant because the narrative isn't building up anything like it is with Powered-Up Trunks. Base and Super Saiyan is irrelevant. How Powered-Up Trunks compares is completely relevant since it establishes how powerful the main antagonist is.

It is worth mentioning that the Base Goku and Frieza comparison is completely omitted from the manga. But, Toyotaro definitely wants and sort of expects the readers to have viewed the movie to understand all of the details.

It's obvious they would have the most reaction to Trunks' strongest form. What you're arguing is that they reacted less to initial SSJ2 therefore it's possible his base or SSJ1 is as strong as SSJ2 Gohan. That conclusion doesn't really follow the logic you're using. The only thing I agree with is that base and SSJ were irrelevant because the story didn't bother to comment on them.

In the Buu saga, Goku and Vegeta powered up in their previous forms but only their SSJ2 confirmed they surpassed Gohan. Some fans could still argue that base Goku is many times stronger than he was during the Cell Games but their only argument would be "well base was irrelevant in the Buu saga so it's possible they didn't want to mention it". It's basically only saying that since the story didn't comment on them that they're free to assume those forms are as strong as they'd want them to be. Again that's more to support their own personal view of how much stronger the character should be than arguing it's a conclusion that an author would legitimately intend.

[Goku9001]

But Goku and Vegeta in the Goku Black arc are irrelevant. We know Cabba scales to Super Saiyans in the U6 arc and Caulifla scales to Cabba, and we have no reason to believe Cabba got significantly stronger. So both Cabba and Caulifla should be around U6 Super Saiyans or around Super Saiyans in the Goku Black arc pre-training, however strong you think they are.

I also am of the belief that until the Goku Black training, and later on the Moro training, Goku and Vegeta weren't much stronger than their Boo arc selves, so I would place the U6 Saiyans at Goku and Vegeta's level during the Boo arc, maybe the Cell Games if you think Vegeta was holding back a lot against Cabba.

How is it irrelevant? Frieza explicitly scales up to Post-Zamasu Goku and Vegeta. How much stronger Goku and Vegeta are after the Goku Black saga is completely relevant here. All we know is that Base Caulifa is much weaker than Super Saiyan Cabba but that only tells us that Caulifa is only stronger than Cabba in respective forms. For all we know, Super Saiyan Goku could be much stronger than Super Saiyan Caulifa or Base Goku could even be on par with Super Saiyan Caulifa.

But I don't really have an issue with Frieza pulling ahead of Base Goku. Base Goku may have been stronger than Frieza during Resurrection of F but Frieza not only faced up against Blue Goku but Perfected Blue Goku. Naturally, Frieza could be closer to the Super Saiyans as a result. I don't think that should act as evidence for the Saiyans not to have progressed in every form until after Tournament of Power.

It's obvious they would have the most reaction to Trunks' strongest form. What you're arguing is that they reacted less to initial SSJ2 therefore it's possible his base or SSJ1 is as strong as SSJ2 Gohan. That conclusion doesn't really follow the logic you're using. The only thing I agree with is that base and SSJ were irrelevant because the story didn't bother to comment on them.

In the Buu saga, Goku and Vegeta powered up in their previous forms but only their SSJ2 confirmed they surpassed Gohan. Some fans could still argue that base Goku is many times stronger than he was during the Cell Games but their only argument would be "well base was irrelevant in the Buu saga so it's possible they didn't want to mention it". It's basically only saying that since the story didn't comment on them that they're free to assume those forms are as strong as they'd want them to be. Again that's more to support their own personal view of how much stronger the character should be than arguing it's a conclusion that an author would legitimately intend.

I'm only arguing that Gohan being used as a mutual reference by suggesting that Trunks is stronger than Gohan doesn't definitively place Trunks within the ballpark of Gohan. Toyotaro showcasing Goku's improvement by facing up against Pure Buu as a Super Saiyan, his willingness to battle Beerus who he thinks is at least on par with Kid Buu, Resurrection of F, his training with Whis, and 3 years training in the RoSaT all reinforce the idea that both Goku and Vegeta had progressed significantly since the Buu Arc. And I do think it's completely relevant to discuss this since it shows a consistency in Toyotaro's mindset and what his perspective may have been when he wrote that statement.

[Skar]

I'm only arguing that Gohan being used as a mutual reference by suggesting that Trunks is stronger than Gohan doesn't definitively place Trunks within the ballpark of Gohan. Toyotaro showcasing Goku's improvement by facing up against Pure Buu as a Super Saiyan, his willingness to battle Beerus who he thinks is at least on par with Kid Buu, Resurrection of F, his training with Whis, and 3 years training in the RoSaT all reinforce the idea that both Goku and Vegeta had progressed significantly since the Buu Arc. And I do think it's completely relevant to discuss this since it shows a consistency in Toyotaro's mindset and what his perspective may have been when he wrote that statement.

The same could be said about the base Saiyans during the Buu saga. Fans argued that there was evidence that they surpassed Freeza but we find out they were weaker in BoG. Someone could ignore a direct comparison in favor of their interpretation of other evidence but I'm fine with interpreting them to fit with direct statements since those usually hold more weight when discussing the author's intent.

Toyotaro is still following BoG so it's unlikely that only in the manga continuity SSJ is as strong as Buu. The only change we know is that Goku didn't absorb SSJG since the form returned later which would slightly alter RoF. The majority of their training gains with Whis could've went to their newer transformations like what happened during the Cell saga and during their training between the Cell and Buu sagas.

[Goku9001]

The same could be said about the base Saiyans during the Buu saga. Fans argued that there was evidence that they surpassed Freeza but we find out they were weaker in BoG. Someone could ignore a direct comparison in favor of their interpretation of other evidence but I'm fine with interpreting them to fit with direct statements since those usually hold more weight when discussing the author's intent.

Toyotaro is still following BoG so it's unlikely that only in the manga continuity SSJ is as strong as Buu. The only change we know is that Goku didn't absorb SSJG since the form returned later which would slightly alter RoF. The majority of their training gains with Whis could've went to their newer transformations like what happened during the Cell saga and during their training between the Cell and Buu sagas.

Not that this is completely relevant here, but fans had reason to believe that after the Daizenshuu confirmed that Base Trunks was equal to Android 18. Regardless, the problem is that we are in disagreement in what the statement means directly. All it means is that Trunks had progressed beyond Gohan. The only way you'd conclude that Trunks is in the ballpark of Gohan is by looking at the subtext, which is also up to personal interpretation. The main argument I'm hearing is that it directly parallels the statement Vegeta makes to Goku but it clearly doesn't since Gohan's power was explicitly built up to be a respectable benchmark, a power that had not been surpassed up until that very point. This aspect, alongside what Piccolo says about Majin Vegeta, makes it clear where Gohan stands relative to the Saiyans. That's not the case with Trunks at all.

I agree with this argument that Toyotaro is adhering to Battle of Gods. If the only known change we have is Goku not absorbing the power of God, then we absolutely know Goku got much stronger by virtue of surpassing Gohan.

[Skar]

Not that this is completely relevant here, but fans had reason to believe that after the Daizenshuu confirmed that Base Trunks was equal to Android 18. Regardless, the problem is that we are in disagreement in what the statement means directly. All it means is that Trunks had progressed beyond Gohan. The only way you'd conclude that Trunks is in the ballpark of Gohan is by looking at the subtext, which is also up to personal interpretation. The main argument I'm hearing is that it directly parallels the statement Vegeta makes to Goku but it clearly doesn't since Gohan's power was explicitly built up to be a respectable benchmark, a power that had not been surpassed up until that very point. This aspect, alongside what Piccolo says about Majin Vegeta, makes it clear where Gohan stands relative to the Saiyans. That's not the case with Trunks at all.

The last time Trunks was seen was the Cell Games so a benchmark used during the Buu saga would make sense for his next appearance. He needed SSJ2 to defeated Dabura and spent a year running from Goku Black. Based on how most of Goku and Vegeta's training gains after the Cell Games seemed to go to their newest forms, it wouldn't be unexpected that most of Trunks' gains after defeating Dabura went to his SSJ2. The other evidence comes down to personal interpretation so all we have is a direct statement about SSJ2 Trunks. If Toyotaro intended for us to interpret the evidence in that way and assume Trunks might be stronger in a lower form, that would raise the question of making that reference to Gohan only after he went SSJ2.

I agree with this argument that Toyotaro is adhering to Battle of Gods. If the only known change we have is Goku not absorbing the power of God, then we absolutely know Goku got much stronger by virtue of surpassing Gohan.

We also know that he didn't surpass Freeza in base so either the gap between Goku and Gohan in the Buu saga wasn't as big as fans assumed or Gohan lost some power. I remember it was discussed on here before. It's unlikely Gohan's power remained stable for four years after the Buu saga then only dropped in the year between BoG and RoF.

[Koitsukai]

Based on how most of Goku and Vegeta's training gains after the Cell Games seemed to go to their newest forms, it wouldn't be unexpected that most of Trunks' gains after defeating Dabura went to his SSJ2. The other evidence comes down to personal interpretation so all we have is a direct statement about SSJ2 Trunks. If Toyotaro intended for us to interpret the evidence in that way and assume Trunks might be stronger in a lower form, that would raise the question of making that reference to Gohan only after he went SSJ2.

This is actually confirmed in the story. Trunks wasn't satisfied with the power that surpassed Gohan, so he kept on going and reached SS3's power in his SS2.

The Trunks being discussed is a suppressed one, so half of his power being Buu arc level isn't too shabby.

[Goku9001]

[The last time Trunks was seen was the Cell Games so a benchmark used during the Buu saga would make sense for his next appearance. He needed SSJ2 to defeated Dabura and spent a year running from Goku Black. Based on how most of Goku and Vegeta's training gains after the Cell Games seemed to go to their newest forms, it wouldn't be unexpected that most of Trunks' gains after defeating Dabura went to his SSJ2. The other evidence comes down to personal interpretation so all we have is a direct statement about SSJ2 Trunks. If Toyotaro intended for us to interpret the evidence in that way and assume Trunks might be stronger in a lower form, that would raise the question of making that reference to Gohan only after he went SSJ2.

The problem with that logic is that this is also a personal interpretation. You're assuming the author would've established a comparison between a lower form of Trunks and Gohan when the statement in question may never have meant to be a proper benchmark to begin with, much like Frieza's statement about Super Saiyan Caulifa or Beerus' statement about SSJ2 Goku. And as mentioned before, Toriyama only cared about Super Saiyan 2 for Trunks so there was no reason for Trunks to remain in Base or go Super Saiyan to begin with.

You'd have a point if Goku battled Trunks as a Super Saiyan and then claimed that he was stronger than Gohan once Trunks fought as a Super Saiyan 2. But that's not what we got. We have Trunks starting off as a Super Saiyan 2 immediately and only got a generic, "You are stronger than Gohan" which is odd because if that was meant to establish that Trunks was in the ballpark of Gohan, then why not say just that? The manga had no issues clarifying that SSJ2 Trunks was slightly better than SSJ2 Goku.

We also know that he didn't surpass Freeza in base so either the gap between Goku and Gohan in the Buu saga wasn't as big as fans assumed or Gohan lost some power. I remember it was discussed on here before. It's unlikely Gohan's power remained stable for four years after the Buu saga then only dropped in the year between BoG and RoF.

Toriyama agreed with the fans that Gohan still had his Ultimate form so highly unlikely. We are only told he lost power in RoF.

[Skar]

The problem with that logic is that this is also a personal interpretation. You're assuming the author would've established a comparison between a lower form of Trunks and Gohan when the statement in question may never have meant to be a proper benchmark to begin with, much like Frieza's statement about Super Saiyan Caulifa or Beerus' statement about SSJ2 Goku. And as mentioned before, Toriyama only cared about Super Saiyan 2 for Trunks so there was no reason for Trunks to remain in Base or go Super Saiyan to begin with.

It's an interpretation based on the only form the story wanted to comment on. We're kinda doing back and forth over the same point. Both are agreeing his base and SSJ are irrelevant. The difference is that I have no opinion on how strong they should be and fine with only his SSJ2 being above Gohan because that's the only form that had a comparison. You've been arguing that because they're irrelevant that you can interpret them to be much stronger based on your interpretation of other evidence. I agreed that's a valid interpretation but not convinced that what the author intended. It would mean they intended for us to interpret all the evidence the same way you have in order to reach the same conclusion as you for the Gohan reference.

Toriyama agreed with the fans that Gohan still had his Ultimate form so highly unlikely. We are only told he lost power in RoF.

I don't remember Toriyama saying anything about it and only Gohan's hair colored in later. Are you saying he was training between the Buu saga and BoG so that his power only dropped right after?

[Mr Baggins]

I agreed that's a valid interpretation but not convinced that what the author intended.

Not to mention that interpretation relies on a false equivalence. Beerus doesn't say "Wow Goku, you're even stronger than Freeza", he says "While I'm not surprised you beat Freeza, this power looks like it's your limit" - the semantic qualifier (and authorial intent) there being that Beerus thinks Goku's Super Saiyan 2 is the most he can muster, not that he's drawing a comparison for comparison's sake or even reacting with any astonishment at Goku being stronger.

Now, if somebody chooses to interpret Freeza's dialogue about Caulifla as an equivalent statement, that's fine. Not yet surpassing Namek Super Saiyan Goku in just her base form is perfectly consistent with what we already know about these characters in lower forms. The manga in its entirety already established that Goku/Vegeta's big milestones, like in the Cell and Boo arcs, are predominantly made strictly with their strongest transformations. If you know a thing or two about narrative, it makes sense to have the lesser stuff serve as benchmark tools.

Every clear indication brought up in this thread from BoG to U6, FT, and US speaks for itself at this point. People forcing different readings can believe whatever they want, but at least it's a good reference for readers more openly curious about the manga's standings.

[Skar]

Every clear indication brought up in this thread from BoG to U6, FT, and US speaks for itself at this point. People forcing different readings can believe whatever they want, but at least it's a good reference for readers more openly curious about the manga's standings.

In the original manga, fans could get a general idea of the author's intent based on who defeats who in a battle and several direct comparisons by name because that's as far as the majority of the audience will look into it. More "analytical" power scaling of every other piece of evidence is optional but isn't argued to hold more weight than what's directly stated.

If direct comparisons are being questioned in favor of other implications, literally everything is now up to interpretation and we have no basis on what the author intended. It's been shown here that there are ways to interpret the other implications to fit those statements. Going by how he used to convey it in the original manga is the only way to narrow down what he could intend now from the countless possible interpretations.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think people are forcing this “what the author intended” a lot. And here’s a question that I saw fairly often in other discussions: Are you sure it’s not what you want the author to have intended? At the end of the day, “stronger than Gohan” isn’t “just a little bit stronger” or “not stronger than anyone above Gohan”.

Sorry, hombre, but none of these are inconsistencies.

Kefla isn't even implied to be awfully stronger than Kale (which is how Potara fusion works when there's a massive strength difference between fusees), a character that every Blue tier fighter had gone at length to comment was not strong enough to seriously pose a threat to them. 17 struggling with Dyspo doesn't mean anything when Dyspo is already in his team's top three. 18 surviving encounters with Seven-Three and Saganbo while teaming up with 17 and the others doesn't make her absurdly powerful. Vegeta having a stronger SS2 was already established in the BoG arc.

But here, lemme help you with some examples of actual internal contradictions:

18 easily lifting Tupper's concentrated weight when base Goku failed to, U9's fighters individually giving the base Saiyans a hard time - to the point of forcing them to transform - even though they're supposed to be weaker than Basil who (in turn) is massively weaker than Good Boo, Ganos's transformed state getting defeated by Roshi even when faring evenly with base Goku in a weaker form, literally everything Ribrianne does, a rusty Super Saiyan Gohan fighting evenly with Super Saiyan Goku, etcetera etcetera.

Oh wait, that's all in the anime.

Again, literal essays worth of shit I could write down if I really wanted to. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

I don’t think so, muchacho.

Vados says Kefla is the “ultimate warrior” and that “there may be no greater competitor”, and Kahseral even say Kefla’s moves are “leagues above what they were doing pre fusion”, though he might only be referring to the fatigued Kale he and the Pride Troopers beat up.

We earlier see SSJB Vegeta casually swatting Dyspo away as he engages Toppo. If 17 is almost as strong as Goku then he should be capable of the same thing. Something isn’t adding here, and I blame Toriyama and Toyotaro not thinking things through for that just as I do for Goku making a redundant comparison between Trunks and Gohan.

18 and 17 pull off exactly the same feats and even take the same blows together. It’s something beyond just fighting in sync (like Gohan and Piccolo do despite the gap between them), the manga is portraying her as comparable to 17 and it’s even more absurd than when the anime shows her above Base Goku. But guess which one actually showed her training?

I’m not sure if 18 being of help to 17 and the others in the Moro Saga is any different than the U9’s combined efforts giving Goku and Vegeta trouble. Isn’t the point in both scenes, even moreso in the ToP, to show how effective the teamwork can be?

In the case of the ToP examples, it’s brought up fairly often in the series that Goku always hold back to gauge the strength of his enemies. I’ve even seen someone mention Goku prefers SSJB because of the perfect Ki control, but I’ve never seen evidence of that. Either way, the fight with U9 was really just a warm up against foes who had really good teamwork.

And you know Roshi and Gohan vs Goku was just sparring right? Goku was even begging Kuririn to spar with him because he was so bored lol.

SSJ2 Vegeta is actually something that was never explained in any version of BoGs whatsoever. I remember people used to think it was a rage boost, and while Trunks’ Super SSJ2 leads some credence to the idea of Vegeta also being a super strong SSJ2, it’s never really explained whether that’s the case or not.

Nah, you can't have it both ways. Either the details are all the same in the manga or they're not.

Besides, Saiyan Beyond God does exist in the anime, at least at the start. Goku absorbs SSG's power, and then Goku (RoF arc) and Vegeta (Potaeufeu arc) use the same verbiage to acknowledge their godly tier bases while describing SSGSS. I say "at the start" only because the anime isn't coherent at all.

I only say that because chapter 5 has a page with Freeza, Shisami and Sorbet in hell, but Tagoma/Ginyu is nowhere near to be seen. I actually think it makes more sense to think the manga follows the movie, but if the movie is outdated due to being a Z product then it has to be the anime.

When? Closest I can remember is Goku’s explanation of SSJB as SSJ on top of SSJG, which is how SSJB works on all 3 mediums and doesn’t really suggest they have SSJG power in base since SSJG is still used later.

Now Anime Goku is definitely much stronger than Manga Goku since he at least absorbed SSJG into SSJ1, but he’s still super strong without “Saiyan Beyond God” regardless.

I'm not sure since I recall Goku suggesting Frost should train like Freeza implying he's still weaker than Freeza in his 4th form. I assume he's done some training to be stronger than Piccolo and put up a fight against SSJ Goku. If Freeza trained four months, maybe Frost stopped after a few weeks.

That’s because Frost doesn’t have Freeza’s golden form.

Let’s be honest, this is the same author that had SSJ2 Vegeta beating up SSJ Black the next chapter without any explanation whatsoever.

But I have to say, Goku not comparing Trunks to Boo actually is a pretty good point, and I’m surprised it took anyone so long to bring it up. He didn’t mind comparing Dabra to Cell even though Shin had no idea who Cell was, so comparing Trunks to a power he only ever heard of isn’t beyond him, after all. But is an argument from silence reason to make all these mental gymnastics and say there’s been a retcon in RoF? Isn’t that like saying Freeza is retconned into being stronger than the Androids because Kuririn compared Cell to him instead of them?

I can see the problem, but I don't think it's such a big deal once you accept SS2 Vegeta is basically SS3 Vegeta, ever since BoG. So, SS3 Goku probably is below or around base Black, and SS3 Vegeta (visually, SS2 Vegeta) is above SS Black.
I guess the issue comes from SS Black and base Black not being as distanced as regular SS and base saiyans usually are, there should be at least a 10x gap between them, and that gap is too big for Goku and Vegeta in their SS3 equivalents while being even on the other forms. It was implied Black hadn't gotten the hang of his new body yet. So, while not stated, we can draw the conclusion that, for Black, turning SS doesn't provide much of a boost, it makes him slightly stronger.

This is headcanon territory, so beware: Black probably can access most of Goku's power reserve in his base form, and his SS form only gives him a minimum boost, explaining his amazing base form and his slightly better SS. This is a more practical way to use that power, so while Goku divides his full power in 4 stages, Black might be able to use it better, like 90% of it in base, and having only 10% left for his SS forms. Kaboom's fusion theory is similar to what Black might get.
Or maybe he has all of the power in his base form, sorta like Gohan, and the zenkai boosts he keeps getting are unlocking more power for his SS form, IIRC, he says that at first he couldn't turn SS? maybe I'm misremembering this, though. I do remember Trunks says his SS is stronger than before.
He also has god ki, I've read a theory about how Black actually works, taking all of these into account but I don't remember even where I read it.
I will concede that it's quite a mess that arc in that regard, but I think we can work around it if we are willing to fill in the blank ourselves. [/quote]

See, that’s the problem. I don’t disagree with anything you said (bar perhaps Black’s small multipliers), but it’s all headcanon. It’s no better, in fact it holds even less water than reading Goku’s compliment in a different interpretation when it comes to validation.

[Skar]

I think people are forcing this “what the author intended” a lot. And here’s a question that I saw fairly often in other discussions: Are you sure it’s not what you want the author to have intended? At the end of the day, “stronger than Gohan” isn’t “just a little bit stronger” or “not stronger than anyone above Gohan”

That's interesting question to ask. I pointed out before that question is easier to answer based on if that fan has an extensive PL list or preconceived notion on how strong the characters should be. I've noticed only people have a reason to question any direct statement now is if they've already made up their minds and only interested in evidence that supports their view on the characters' strength.

People like Mr Baggins and Cipher made it clear they don't care how strong the characters are exactly and only going by how an author generally conveys information in a story. For example, I was on the fence about how strong the base Saiyans were by the Buu saga and didn't really mind either way so I was fine with accepting base Goku being weaker than Freeza. If Beerus confirmed base Goku was stronger than Freeza, I would be willing to accept that as well same with every other direct statement.

[Mr Baggins]

Vados says Kefla is the “ultimate warrior” and that “there may be no greater competitor”

We earlier see SSJB Vegeta casually swatting Dyspo away as he engages Toppo. If 17 is almost as strong as Goku then he should be capable of the same thing.

First of all, these vague colloquialisms are just that -- vague colloquialisms. They're not declarative comparisons or anything. Despite Vados's ruminations, Jiren is thoroughly established to be the strongest participant in the tournament and nobody questions it. 17 is said to be "about" as strong as Goku and Vegeta, but that doesn't mean he's exactly on par with Toppo or the completed Super Saiyan Blue, or that he wouldn't have been surprise-swatted by Vegeta in the same circumstance. Nothing ever implies that for the entirety of the arc's 15 chapters.

I’m not sure if 18 being of help to 17 and the others in the Moro Saga is any different than the U9’s combined efforts giving Goku and Vegeta trouble. Isn’t the point in both scenes, even moreso in the ToP, to show how effective the teamwork can be?

Weaker characters teaming up with stronger characters and surviving has precedent, so no. When I talked about U9's fighters, you might notice I mentioned what they were capable of individually; Vegeta can fire a barrage of ki blasts at Hop (who should be weaker than Basil and Lavender) only to have her effortlessly dodge them, charge at him and then have him on the ropes throughout the fight until he finally decides to go Super Saiyan and proceeds to wipe them all at once. If he could one-shot them with SS, there's no reason he shouldn't have been able to do the same in base if he's as strong as the anime was originally purporting. Again, all of these other guys are weaker than Boo.

They are not the same.

In the case of the ToP examples, it’s brought up fairly often in the series that Goku always hold back to gauge the strength of his enemies.

Yes, I'm aware of certain people conveniently arguing "Goku was just holding back!" whenever they're confronted with this stuff. Here's the thing: that's ridiculous, and it isn't ever brought up in any of the examples I mentioned. The notion that base Goku was "merely pretending" to be incapable of lifting Tupper is a bad way to reconcile inconsistencies, chico.

The manga is much clearer there because Goku needs Super Saiyan to lift Tupper. But while we're doing this, let's bring up some other examples from the TV show and how they compare to the manga:

Spoiler:

Future Zamasu can literally keep up with SSB Goku one moment and then get his ass kicked by SS2 Trunks the next, which is outrageous and remains the subject of countless scaling debates to this day. On the other hand, the manga specifies exactly what ballpark he's in, so you don't have people constantly playing the guessing game over whether he's supposed to be god level or beneath it whenever they discuss that version.

Kale can tank a Kamehameha from Blue and ragdoll SSB Goku in one episode and then lose to an exhausted SSG Goku in a later episode. Again, no explanation given, but some really do attempt to rationalize an obvious inconsistency by arguing that Goku was somehow massively suppressed based on yet another vague colloquialism that can either translate to "a little" or "a lot" depending on context. Others try to rationalize it by arguing that Goku simply got stronger. As usual, nobody can agree on which one of their post-hoc fallacies is better. On the flipside, the manga goes out of its way to clarify what's going on with Kale panel by panel, scene by scene.

Ribrianne can fight on par with SS Vegeta and then be at a disadvantage against base Goku in another episode. Then she transforms, causes Goku to run away, transforms again, then gets defeated by Android 18. Absolute nonsense. And can we expect an explanation from Toei's writers? Of course not. "It's up the fans!", except when the fans can't explain any of this shit without using unsupported headcanon theories. Not an issue in the comic.

But wait, there's more! Let's take a look at what the manga smartly avoided:

Gohan can force SSB Goku into Kaioken, but can't do shit against Toppo (who repeatedly struggled against SSB Vegeta) even when teaming up with 17, another supposedly Blue tier fighter.

In Episode 117, Viara is easily defeated by 17 and there's even a remark about how much of a joke he is in comparison. In Episode 120, Viara encounters 17 again... except this time 17 needs 18's help, both commenting on how supposedly tough he is.

Oh, speaking of 17: Lapis became so strong since we last saw him that he's capable of forcing Goku into Super Saiyan Blue, except when he's apparently not that strong because he couldn't even overcome the Pretty Black Hole that Goku partially withstood in his fucking base form and then effortlessly overcame with Blue. Yikes.

Oh, speaking of Goku: Genki Dama in the tournament is somehow vastly stronger than the one in the Boo arc, despite containing considerably less genki. Doesn't begin to compute, and that's not even going into the massive characterization problems associated with that episode.

I can easily keep going, but do I even want to?

SSJ2 Vegeta is actually something that was never explained in any version of BoGs whatsoever.

But we're not talking about whether every little thing in the manga has a detailed explanation. We're talking about inconsistencies and contradictions, my man. It was obvious from the first arc that Vegeta has a boosted Super Saiyan 2.

When? Closest I can remember is Goku’s explanation of SSJB as SSJ on top of SSJG, which is how SSJB works on all 3 mediums and doesn’t really suggest they have SSJG power in base since SSJG is still used later.

Nah, that isn't Goku's explanation at any point in the anime. He uses the exact same verbiage from the movie in Japanese, describing Blue as the Super Saiyan version of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. So does Vegeta later on.

The point is that both the Z film and its (frankly terrible) anime adaptation are outdated, and completely retconned later on. God level base Goku is consistently framed as the reason for his own "feats" in RoF, which is immaterial to the manga.

People like Mr Baggins and Cipher made it clear they don't care how strong the characters are exactly and only going by how an author generally conveys information in a story.

Right. Personally, I would have been fine with Super just continuing whatever RoF established without bringing any of the lower forms back, but I'm also okay with this current structure and find that it's more in line with how the original manga portrayed the Saiyans' growth anyway. As long as it's relatively consistent, I don't care what the intention is.
________

Another addendum: I just want to say how ironic I think it is that the manga of all things would be accused of "Heroes tier scaling" when SDBH actually shares a lot of the same staff that worked on the TV anime. Shoulda been obvious from that time Yoshitaka Toshio provided two contradictory rankings about the ToP's fighters on his Twitter account, but whatevs.

[Skar]

Right. Personally, I would have been fine with Super just continuing whatever RoF established without bringing any of the lower forms back, but I'm also okay with this current structure and find that it's more in line with how the original manga portrayed the Saiyans' growth anyway. As long as it's relatively consistent, I don't care what the intention is.

I wouldn't mind if Saiyan Beyond God was kept and Goku's only transformation was Blue then Omen/UI later. SBG's power would range from his original base form to SSJG which keeps it simple and doesn't require all the different theories we've seen. Two base theory, SSJG having a different boost than in BoG, base Goku and Vegeta getting vastly stronger after training with Whis but unclear by how much, and maybe some others I forgot about.

[Goku9001]

It's an interpretation based on the only form the story wanted to comment on. We're kinda doing back and forth over the same point. Both are agreeing his base and SSJ are irrelevant. The difference is that I have no opinion on how strong they should be and fine with only his SSJ2 being above Gohan because that's the only form that had a comparison. You've been arguing that because they're irrelevant that you can interpret them to be much stronger based on your interpretation of other evidence. I agreed that's a valid interpretation but not convinced that what the author intended. It would mean they intended for us to interpret all the evidence the same way you have in order to reach the same conclusion as you for the Gohan reference.

I'm going solely based on the evidence the author has blatantly shown thus far which is relevant as all power comparisons are made based on the existing power structure thus far. My conclusion is simply that Trunks is merely stated to be stronger than Gohan with no additional subtext other than for Goku to acknowledge Trunks by using Gohan as the strongest mutual reference to reflect that. There is no information within that statement or context alone that constitutes Trunks being within the ballpark of Gohan nor does it require. The author makes it a clear point to suggest that Trunks was slightly better than Goku yet only admits to Trunks being stronger than Gohan. Aside from that, Trunks doesn't even fight Goku in Base or Super Saiyan so Goku acknowledging the only power Trunks used thus far doesn't tell us where his other powers stand. You're pushing this narrative that this is what the author intended with nothing to back it up. I'm not convinced here.

If the statement doesn't give any concrete information on the existing power structure, the logical conclusion is to refer to information found elsewhere. The reason why Trunks being stronger than Gohan isn't conclusive of SSJ2 is the same reason why SSJ2 Goku only being stronger than Frieza isn't conclusive solely based on Beerus' statement. As Mr Baggins clarified, the context suggests that Beerus was probing Goku to use more power as he realizes that Super Saiyan 2 isn't his limit. Beerus' statement doesn't suggest that Goku requires SSJ2 to defeat Frieza despite asserting "So... I see how you managed to defeat Frieza" because context as well as the existing power structure makes it clear that this isn't the case. And this is a manga exclusive statement for SSJ2 Goku meaning that Toyotaro knew what he was doing when he put it in, cognizant of the fact that people have been following the manga and knew how Goku compares relative to Frieza.

I don't remember Toriyama saying anything about it and only Gohan's hair colored in later. Are you saying he was training between the Buu saga and BoG so that his power only dropped right after?

It's Ultimate Gohan. We see Gohan enter Super Saiyan only for the ritual so for him to enter a Base-like state at full power against Beerus points in the direction of him being Ultimate. Toriyama did admit to making that edit as a response to fans but I would have to find that statement.

[Mr Baggins]

As Mr Baggins clarified, the context suggests that Beerus was probing Goku to use more power as he realizes that Super Saiyan 2 isn't his limit.

To be clear, I wasn't simply talking about context. I'm saying the very statement taken on its own isn't Beerus drawing a comparison for its own sake, unlike Goku's statement, which is, so it's not the same.

Subtext is beside the point. Just as the author didn't aim to compare Caulifla and Namek SS Goku until she fought in Super Saiyan, so too did the author not aim to compare Trunks and Gohan until he sparred using Super Saiyan 2. Evaluating whether Trunks used prior forms in-universe doesn't change the out-of-universe intent, which is readily apparent; if there's a direct strength comparison being made, then the form used to draw the comparison dictates its sufficiency. As has been said, the audience's expected takeaway isn't meant to be scrutinized beyond that.

If I wanted to look at surrounding context and evidence, it's even further supported, but that's all stuff I've already covered at length.

But again, this is just me clarifying my position. I have absolutely no intention to keep arguing about this specific thing anymore because I realize I've made my point. There's no elucidation required, and even if there was, I think there's a wealth of other evidence in the series to back it up. Whether you concur or don't concur is up to you, but man, there's no reason to repeat the same talking points like this for over five pages.

[Cipher]

I agree this is the information we get. If we want to discern how Goku compares to Gohan i.e whether he's within the ballpark or simply much stronger, we would have to look elsewhere. Just like we would with Majin Vegeta to know how he exactly compares to Kid Gohan. I'm not sure what you mean by "the story would mention if they were wrong." The statement isn't invalidated even if Trunks was monumentally stronger than Gohan was.

If the intent is for Super Saiyan 2 Trunks to be matching a Goku who is astronomically stronger than his Boo arc self, why would Goku's comparison to Gohan only come out after Trunks transforms into SS2? He'd have been stronger than Cell Games-era Gohan the whole time. And in those shocking circumstances, the more relevant comment would have been Goku comparing Trunks to himself.

That's by far the more immediate way to signal things to the reader in that case.

The Trunks scene is really what locks in no super-strong Goku/Vegeta approach being taken in the manga for me--(which means, yes, you need to assume slightly different events in its "F" equivalent to fit with its "Battle of Gods" changes)--we get an SS2 Trunks compared favorably to SS2 Gohan, only after he transforms, using homage dialogue last used to signal an SS2 who was also in Cell Games era Gohan's ballpark.

Sure, it's possible that he and Goku are both still wildly stronger than Cell Games-era Gohan in that scene, but then you have to assume that Goku decides to wait for the transformation to reveal that for no great reason, that we're mean to ignore the dialogue similarity, and that Toyotaro doesn't think there's anything strange about asking all those assumptions of the reader when just about any other approach could make the magnitude of their strength more clear. It requires so much reading against the grain, when the more immediate reading would be "Toyotaro gives us a scene that implies SS2 Trunks and Goku are in the original-run SS2 ballpark, because that's what he meant to do."

Like Skar, I don't have an issue with a super-duper strong Trunks showing up if the story wants to give us that. Just like I don't have an issue with the story telling us #17 and Freeza can make their infamous leaps in Super. I don't have an issue with it telling us Gohan can catch up to Super Saiyan Blue characters in his small amount of training leading up to the ToP. But it makes those things clear. I'm just not one to assume we're ever meant to read a scene that far around what its dialogue and comparisons imply. I think the idea that Trunks and Goku are in range of the SS2s we see in the original series is made about as clear as anything, really.

If you had to interpret Resurrection F's events in the manga following the "Goku & co didn't get much stronger from the Boo arc onwards" paradigm, then how would you? How strong is Freeza in the manga and which forms did Goku use against him? Base Freeza in the ToP seems outclassed by regular old Super Saiyans. At least stronger than Boo Super Saiyans, but still very weak nevertheless.

The manga is also not without its inconsistent scaling. SSB Vegeta after eating a senzu bean losing to SS Goku Black comes to mind.

The manga's a little wishy-washy on non-Golden Freeza's strength, but I wouldn't want to assume any deviations from the film so large as to give us a much weaker Freeza. That requires events to be substantially different.

All that needs to change is base Goku vs. Freeza. I've seen a lot of people suggest SSG Goku vs. Freeza instead, which would definitely help bring it in line, but I think if it were up to me in an adaptation or something, I'd just skip straight to Blue vs. Golden (have Goku sense Freeza's power and figure Blue is needed from the get-go, with Freeza surprising him with Golden to accommodate), to save God's surprise usage/return in U6. I think it would be undercut by being used as a stepping stone in the previous story.

Re: The bolded bit: I don't know that I agree he's ever "outclassed." Caulifla just gives him a harder time than expected. He doesn't seem to be in any danger of losing to her, but she gets under his skin and he's the character most focused on not exerting extra effort besides Jiren. (If he has Golden under control, it's actually less effort to just steamroll with it than risking any remote struggle in a lower form.) He eats Caulifla's gigantic attack no worse for wear.

We can't. Goku and Vegeta made significant gains during the Goku Black arc. Aside from that, I don't think Cabba would be capable of fending off the Pride Troopers the way Super Saiyan Goku could.

This is kind of external to any ongoing conversations, but for clarity: Neither Goku nor Vegeta are implied to have gotten significantly stronger in the Black arc (manga) outside of new uses for their transformations. The results of Vegeta's day in the Room of Spirit and Time are attributed entirely to his being able to do the rapid God-Blue switch (with Black even being confused by the fact that he doesn't seem to have gotten noticeably stronger, despite gaining the upper hand in their fight), and Goku spends his one day of training learning the Mafuba, then pulls out Completed Super Saiyan Blue as an untested experiment. They're stronger overall, by the end, but it's basically all attributed to learning how to use Blue more effectively, rather than becoming stronger across all their transformations in a traditional sense.

The Moro arc has the first training sequence in which Goku and Vegeta are unambiguously mentioned/shown to be stronger than they previously had been while in the same forms. (Or rather, first since their time in the RoSaT in the U6 arc, probably, although the results of that are kept ambiguous, and no one even references their having gotten particularly stronger.)

I think people are forcing this “what the author intended” a lot. And here’s a question that I saw fairly often in other discussions: Are you sure it’s not what you want the author to have intended? At the end of the day, “stronger than Gohan” isn’t “just a little bit stronger” or “not stronger than anyone above Gohan”

That's interesting question to ask. I pointed out before that question is easier to answer based on if that fan has an extensive PL list or preconceived notion on how strong the characters should be. I've noticed only people have a reason to question any direct statement now is if they've already made up their minds and only interested in evidence that supports their view on the characters' strength.

People like Mr Baggins and Cipher made it clear they don't care how strong the characters are exactly and only going by how an author generally conveys information in a story. For example, I was on the fence about how strong the base Saiyans were by the Buu saga and didn't really mind either way so I was fine with accepting base Goku being weaker than Freeza. If Beerus confirmed base Goku was stronger than Freeza, I would be willing to accept that as well same with every other direct statement.

I'm just agreeing with Skar again here, but I would certainly hope that my focus is on "what the author intended," because I don't particularly have skin in the game beyond that. I don't have an expectations that Trunks needs to be so-and-so-strong, etc.

I'll accept characters being as strong or weak as the story tells us they are, and then basically all of my power-discussion comments beyond that are looking for patterns in writing and presentation that help us fill in gaps on where they intended characters without direct commentary to be.

Whenever we get a statement like Beerus' on Goku and Freeza, I just go, "Oh, okay. So that was the intent. I could see reading base Goku as having been stronger too, but he wasn't, so no we can look at other question marks through that lens." And then I use that to frame how I look at other scenes/statements, etc. to fit with that general structure. It means sometimes I'll dismiss individual panels or small bits of action that don't seem to be intended to work as big "power-defining moments," since it's hard to make everything line up perfectly presentationally, but I think you can generally get a sense of where everyone stands across the two manga series based on what gets direct statements (and sometimes what doesn't), and then bringing everything in line around that. I don't really care where that lands any particular character. Why would I?

I've argued plenty against, say, Moro arc Piccolo being stronger than #17 in this thread, since I don't think anything in the scenes really gives us that to the level of clarity the series usually affords those kind of leaps, but if next month's chapter had someone say, "Hey, Piccolo, you're the strongest person on Earth after Gohan," or had him take out someone who had just hung #17 out to dry, my reaction would just be, "Okay! Glad that's cleared up." And I guess I'd be more likely to read the situational panel things people had used as evidence for that as being actual indicators moving forward. (But it's worth mentioning that as of this post none of that has happened. And with him getting a power-up and very clear general-ranking increase in Super Hero (I'm assuming), the book will probably never be firmly closed on that one.)

Now, if fans want to argue that there's enough in-scene evidence to indicate that the author(s) might be "wrong" about the world/story as they've executed it, that's also a valid approach. It's just not the one I'm interested in. When I discuss power in DB, I'm pretty much always coming at it from the lens of, "Okay, how strong does the story (how strong does Toriyama/Toyotaro) want us to read this character as being, relatively?" Sometimes it doesn't have an exact answer at all, especially with very specific match-ups across different storylines, but I'd imagine they usually they have something in mind, and you can suss it out using direct statements as your footholds.

(Incidentally, the reason I'm less likely to ever engage with the Super anime on that level is precisely because I don't think there was an overall uniform intention there to identify--you get the sense that Writer A might have had a different understanding of certain characters than Writer B (down to Goku and Vegeta themselves, at points), and indeed that was probably the case. I don't know that the series had any kind of Relative Strength Bible or someone dedicated to do script checks specifically through that lens. You can certainly engage in the exercise of putting all the pieces together to decide how it shakes out as its own finished series/fictional world--but without the author intentionality aspect it's just not really what I'm interested in. For this kind of discussion, I don't want to invent/decide the rules for the fictional world, so much as I want to identify the ones that are there.)

[Xeno Goku Black]

If Base Goku, Vegeta and Broly all fight an evenly matched battle in Super Hero then does that mean that Goku and Vegeta have grown dozens of times more powerful since the Broly movie considering that in that Base Broly was around the same level as Super Saiyan?

Super Hero Base Goku / Vegeta > Broly Super Saiyan Goku / Vegeta?

[Cipher]

If Base Goku, Vegeta and Broly all fight an evenly matched battle in Super Hero then does that mean that Goku and Vegeta have grown dozens of times more powerful since the Broly movie considering that in that Base Broly was around the same level as Super Saiyan?

Super Hero Base Goku / Vegeta > Broly Super Saiyan Goku / Vegeta?

This is always my stance, but I’m going to go with “It means Broly’s holding back for the sake of spectacle, unless we’re given commentary implying otherwise.”

Just like Super Saiyan Goku vs. Broly last film, etc.

Overall intent above scene-by-scene execution. Especially in a film where they want easy-to-digest, crowd-pleasing action.

Those who look to attribute readings to the series based on its execution rather than intent will feel otherwise, and that’s fine.