Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods"

[penguintruth]

Piccolo only suggests SSJ Vegeta MAY be stronger than SSJ Goku based on his impressive skill taking out #19. He doesn't say, "Vegeta has a higher ki than Goku at his peak!" He suggests that Vegeta is this way because "he really is a fighting genius". Nothing is stated as fact.

And Vegeta of course refers to himself as superior. BECAUSE IT'S VEGETA.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

Piccolo only suggests SSJ Vegeta MAY be stronger than SSJ Goku based on his impressive skill taking out #19. He doesn't say, "Vegeta has a higher ki than Goku at his peak!" He suggests that Vegeta is this way because "he really is a fighting genius". Nothing is stated as fact.

And Vegeta of course refers to himself as superior. BECAUSE IT'S VEGETA.

Piccolo still commented on how Vegeta is superior to Goku in SSJ form when he left to find #17, #18, and #16.

[Saiga]

Piccolo only suggests SSJ Vegeta MAY be stronger than SSJ Goku based on his impressive skill taking out #19. He doesn't say, "Vegeta has a higher ki than Goku at his peak!" He suggests that Vegeta is this way because "he really is a fighting genius". Nothing is stated as fact.

And Vegeta of course refers to himself as superior. BECAUSE IT'S VEGETA.

You still haven't answered my question.

Where does this "All Super Saiyans of a level are equal" belief stem from? Because there is absolutely no basis for it in the manga, yet many things that contradict it.

[Insertclevername]

The fact that SSJ Gokuu during the Cell games can outperform himself during Namek is evidence enough. Or Vegeta's comment saying that SSJ2 Gokuu was more powerful that SSJ2 Gohan during his fight with Cell and they were both SSJ2.

[Herms]

Man, screw the guides. The guides are cash-grabs. They always have been. Just filler material to make a quick buck. They're as official as any fanfiction. If you think Toriyama thought once about power levels after Freeza, you're naive. He was making stuff up as he went along.

A) Kind of an amusing thing to say, in a thread dedicated to a movie which more and more looks like it will tie in to information Toriyama introduced in a guidebook interview.

B) On that note, the guidebooks are our main source for interviews with Toriyama, his editors, the anime staff, the voice cast, and other people involved in making the series. Maybe you don't care about the origin for the Kaio's that Toriyama made up a decade after finishing the series, but these interviews also provide lots of information on his the series itself came to be the way it is, and a look into the lives of the people involved. Maybe you're not interested in that stuff either, but it makes little sense to refer to this material as "the same as fanfiction."

C) Apart from that, the guidebooks devote most of their space to plot summary and other compilations of information present in the series already. Daizenshuu 2 for instance is mostly a summary of each manga volume, while the anime-based ones have episode guides. And they have pictures; lots of pictures, with captions describing what you can clearly already see in said picture. Maybe you don't care for stuff like this either, but it again makes little sense to call it "fanfiction".

D) In fact, the amount of new "in-universe" information given throughout the guidebooks is actually pretty low. It ends up being the content you hear most about, since nobody needs to cite Daizenshuu 4's race guide to establish that Goku's an alien, but they still always make up a pretty small part of the actual book. A vastly more accurate way to make fun of the guidebooks is to say that they mostly consist of fluff like "Namu is a cool guy". But of course fandom has this idea that they're all about power level lists and Super Saiyan multipliers...

E) When in fact, out of the already rather scarce new "in-universe" information provided in the guidebooks, barely any of it has anything to do with power levels. Daizenshuu 7 has two (!) pages devoted to chronicling Goku's power level throughout the series (reprinted twice in later guides), and a few extra numbers in some character bios. Notably, the official word at the end of those two pages is that powers beyond the battle with Freeza "cannot be gauged numerically". The Super Exciting Guides have those multipliers for Super Saiyan 2 and 3 (amounted to no more than a pair of captions on one pages), and those weird graphs in the training section demonstrating Goku's growth. And...that's pretty much it. Two pages, two captions. If Shueisha had really intended these books to cash in on fans' desire for more power levels, they'd look a lot different than this.

F) And I do so hate when people say some particular part of DB-dom was done as a cash-in. Hey, maybe it was, but you know, so was the entire franchise. Everything from the first chapter of the manga to this upcoming movie were created to make money. The level of quality may vary, but the level of artistic integrity has remained pretty flat.

G) Finally, if you really want to pursue this power level discussion further, it probably warrants a seperate thread by now.

[penguintruth]

I meant "screw the guides" as far as things that were never mentioned in or relevant to the manga, like the power levels past Freeza.

Yes, the interviews are very insightful. But the power level ratings were just filler to appease people's stupid "versus" debates.

A lot of information was thought up AFTER the manga was already over. It's like the specs of Star Wars spaceships. Somebody asked a question and somebody else thought, "Hm, better explain that one with some shit I pulled out of my ass!" It's just self-indulgant fan pandering.

This is what I never liked about the Gundam fandom, for instance. Do I really give a damn what the engine output on a Zaku II Custom is? Isn't it just easier to handwave and go, "Yeah, it's pretty damn fast."? Are people really aching to know how many different versions of the psychommu system were made before it was perfected (never) or what Char Aznable's favorite brand of toilet paper is? Sayla Mass' third favorite Bond movie? Kai Shiden's favorite sexual position?

POWER LEVELS. How strong is Goku compared to Cell? Less. How about SSJ2 Goku to SSJ Vegeta? Same. How is it worth debating?

[Ringworm128]

You could say "is it worth debating/talking about" for about 90% of the stuff that gets posted on this forum. We are all huge fans of the series who love to analyze the series because we have a passion for the series and everything that comes with it. And stuff like battle powers and "who would win" is all just in good fun.

[MCDaveG]

Do I really give a damn what the engine output on a Zaku II Custom is? Isn't it just easier to handwave and go, "Yeah, it's pretty damn fast."

Ehm, uhm, it's tree times the regular factory Zaku

But well, before the dispute about power levels took this devastating level, I proposed separated thread and I really think this belongs to In-universe
and thought that this one will coverage news tidbits and expectations of fans.... like Chuquita is the most lovely coresponder always.

I'll need to go to those positive thinking seminars, before I'll make some dumb ruckuss again, lol.

[bleed0range]

SSJ3 is the farthest you can take SSJ, canonically anyway. Furthermore Vegeta is getting it a couple years after the Buu saga so it hasnt been around for over a decade in the story. You know I'm getting really tired of SSJ3 Vegeta being referred to as fan fiction -_-. Its highly possible he achieved it before the end of the manga or did you forget that Vegeta still had his drive to beat Kakarot at the end of the manga. He isnt beating without SSJ3 so he likely has it or is going to have it. Fresh ideas have been killing this series since Heya Son Goku and his Friends Return. As you can imagine I am a bit skeptical about new ideas. SSJ3 Vegeta making an appearance and SSJ3 Gogeta beating the bad guy just completes the series for me.

I didn't forget that Toriyama later added in that whole thing about Vegeta wanting to still beat Kakarot and I wasn't really referring to a decade's time in-universe... I meant in real life. SSJ3 is nothing new and we've already seen the next level, SSJ4 (even if it was not technically part of the manga/anything Toriyama came up with... and even if you hate SSJ4 like me because of the magic pants). But in any case what I meant was there could always be some new technique that Goku could learn that would be far more creative and interesting then the next level of super saiyan. Especially *insert random character* to go SSJ3. We've already seen what all those characters look like because the video games kind of went, imo, a little overboard with it. I'm not saying I'm totally against Vegeta achieving SSJ3 because yeah that'd be cool to see him catch up to Goku again but at the same time it's almost as boring to me as the bad guy getting defeated by a Genki Dama again.

Why can't we see something new? It'd be cool to see Goku learn a technique akin to Kaioken or get a power boost akin to Gohan's "ultimate" form. Ya know? Toriyama is a creative storyteller who often goes for the thing out of left-field. The thing that is NOT obvious. Vegeta got a power boost, but it was because of the whole magical influence via Babidi. Ya see what I mean? That's more interesting to me, he had to cheat to do it and gave up some of his core values (i.e. his pride). That's better story telling. That's what I meant.

So far, the movie does not give me hope that we'll see anything like that. And that is perfectly fine too. I am excited to get OTHER new things introduced, like maybe more information on other world and how the whole god hierarchy thing works. Or see new powers with this new enemy. I would find it more interesting to see something along those lines. But the trailer makes it seem like it'll be more of the same as far as their own powers/techniques... on par with what they were during the Buu arc.

I'm making it sound like I'm being pessimistic about the new movie but I totally am 100% excited for it lol.

[Saiga]

Toriyama didn't create SS4.

[Chuquita]

MCDaveG, thank you so much!

I know a separate thread was made for Gohan's hair when that came up in this thread a while back, I feel like someone will definitely make a thread in the In Universe section especially for movie-related power debates soon too.

The trailer itself is a nice puzzle to try and pull apart while I wait for the Jump Festa panel.
Little things I didn't notice before:
-The gem at the top of Uisu's staff isn't connected to the staff, but floats above it.
-The shade of green Piccolo is in this matches the shade movie-tie-in Pilaf-toy's skin is.
-This party does not take place on the lookout. When Gohan leaps into action there are buildings behind him that match those seen in DB's cities.
-Starting to suspect that huge attack Virus throws at Goku is his version of a ball of ki; I feel like Freeza's looked like that in Episode of Bardock, but I'll have to check. EDIT: Checked, really similar, only Freeza's was yellow, but the special effect texture is the same.

[bleed0range]

Toriyama didn't create SS4.

Who said he did? I said that SSJ4 technically exists even if it wasn't part of the manga/something Toriyama came up with. As in, yeah GT exists in all it's mediocre glory and that means we've already kind of seen what's after SSJ3.

[Saiga]

Toriyama didn't create SS4.

Who said he did?

Oh, sorry, I misread your post. I thought you said that even though it wasn't part of the manga, Toriyama came up with it.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

Do I really give a damn what the engine output on a Zaku II Custom is? Isn't it just easier to handwave and go, "Yeah, it's pretty damn fast."

Ehm, uhm, it's tree times the regular factory Zaku

But well, before the dispute about power levels took this devastating level, I proposed separated thread and I really think this belongs to In-universe
and thought that this one will coverage news tidbits and expectations of fans.... like Chuquita is the most lovely coresponder always.

I'll need to go to those positive thinking seminars, before I'll make some dumb ruckuss again, lol.

I really enjoy the debates in this thread and I don't feel the need to warrant a seperate thread for it. If the administrator wants us to make a sperate thread, then I'm all for it.

The debates will be put to a hold once the new info or trailer pops up, anyway. The folks wouldn't miss it.

[bleed0range]

Toriyama didn't create SS4.

Who said he did?

Oh, sorry, I misread your post. I thought you said that even though it wasn't part of the manga, Toriyama came up with it.

No biggie. I honestly would like Toriyama to just ignore GT and feel free to do whatever he wants with the DB story from where he left off. They could treat GT like any of the 13 movies, it exists but it never "really" happened canonically. I feel GT is kind of holding back where to take this franchise in a way... because there's only so much they can do between Buu and GT. But still, GT happened so yeah. haha.

[Hellspawn28]

I think they have been ignoring GT after a decade later it came out and that's a good thing. GT was a failure and people hated it. It's good to ignore failures just like people like to ignore Batman & Robin, Die Another Day, Hulk (2003), Star Trek V, and the Super Mario Bros Movie. It find it surprising that some people care about GT lately.

[MasterVampire]

Why is King Kai so against Goku fighting this "God" ?

Goku is way stronger than any of the Kai's.

At his best as a SSJ3 he pretty much is Godlike himself with all that power.

[SaiyamanMS]

I'd say that the difference is that the gods (Kami-sama, Kaio, Kaioshin, etc.) we've seen up until now have all been guardians. Supervisors in charge of keeping an eye on the universe. These guys are the creator and the destroyer, the ones with the real power so to speak.

[Kuwabara]

Let's say Raditz at the beginning of the series could suddenly go SSJ2; SSJ2 Gohan during the Cell Games would still cream him without any difficulty.

I disagree. SSJ2 Raditz would beat SSJ2 Gohan because he has more fighting experience.

This was going to be a slightly longer post, but people seem to have moved on. I'll just say that your idea of incredibly simplified, Tenkaichi 3-esque equilibrium among characters concerning their strength is interesting, but completely unconvincing to me.

[kei17]

According to Minaguchi's blog, she recently came back to Japan and stayed for six days for her work. I guess they recorded Videl's lines in this movie and the Buu arc of Kai.

http://s.ameblo.jp/minaguchi/entry-11426156938.html