Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Abo and Cado are first form Frieza level. Aka is stated to surpass SSJ Gotenks according to Chozenshuu 4, so Aka=Final Form Frieza cannot be true. The Frieza level statement is specifically about Abo and Cado, but they aren't final form level as stated by Toyotaro so the only form that makes narrative sense is first form.

Aka>SSJ Gotenks(Yo! Son)>Full Power Frieza>Base Goten/Trunks>=Abo/Cado=First Form Frieza is what we get by synthesizing Chozenshuu 4 and Toyotaro's statements together.

Didn't Aka get trashed by base Gotenks?

He stood there waiting for Gotenks to attack to test his strength. Then he got up after being punched by SSJ Gotenks. A bit winded but smiled afterwards saying that Gotenks's power wasn't bad. Then Aka uses his Wahaha techniques and Gotenks can't stop them at all. Goku and Vegeta had to step in. So no I wouldn't say that the special shows Aka below Gotenks. The Chozenshuu confirms that Gotenks's attacks were in fact were not beyond what Aka could handle.

[ankokudaishogun]

I was thinking: what if the Jiren fighting against Freeza-Goku-MVP17 at the end of Anime ToP is portraying his "raw" power-level without his perfect ki control?

[Almighty Majin]

I was thinking: what if the Jiren fighting against Freeza-Goku-MVP17 at the end of Anime ToP is portraying his "raw" power-level without his perfect ki control?

Jiren by the end of the ToP had broken his limits, but was likely exhausted and out of focus by that point so he probably wasn't at full capacity. I think this makes sense in order for Jiren to still be considered relevant by the time Super Hero comes around (if you want to consider the manga). I would assume that a full power, fully focused limit breaker Jiren would be on a whole other level, especially if you want to add on whatever gains he may have gotten from training in the past years leading up to Super Hero.

[ZombieVito]

I was thinking: what if the Jiren fighting against Freeza-Goku-MVP17 at the end of Anime ToP is portraying his "raw" power-level without his perfect ki control?

Jiren by the end of the ToP had broken his limits, but was likely exhausted and out of focus by that point so he probably wasn't at full capacity. I think this makes sense in order for Jiren to still be considered relevant by the time Super Hero comes around (if you want to consider the manga). I would assume that a full power, fully focused limit breaker Jiren would be on a whole other level, especially if you want to add on whatever gains he may have gotten from training in the past years leading up to Super Hero.

It's outright stated by Freeza that he was far from his full power.

[Goku9001]

That doesn't work anyways since Jiren's power is clarified to be above Blue Goku's and Blue Vegeta's at least with the monstrous gap between them being associated with Jiren's control over his power. Jiren losing that degree of control would not explain why Base Goku and Frieza could hold him off. His power had to have dropped.

[Hugo Boss]

Abo and Cado are first form Frieza level. Aka is stated to surpass SSJ Gotenks according to Chozenshuu 4, so Aka=Final Form Frieza cannot be true. The Frieza level statement is specifically about Abo and Cado, but they aren't final form level as stated by Toyotaro so the only form that makes narrative sense is first form.

Aka>SSJ Gotenks(Yo! Son)>Full Power Frieza>Base Goten/Trunks>=Abo/Cado=First Form Frieza is what we get by synthesizing Chozenshuu 4 and Toyotaro's statements together.

Being equally matched with Freeza’s first form has no narrative sense because that’s only a fraction of Freeza’s strength, specially because the audience knows he can only be defeated by a Super Saiyan. If that was the case we would have to specify every form that Goku and Vegeta are been compared with other characters, which defeats the purpose of those comparisons.

So, for all intents and purposes, Tarble and Toyotaro were talking about the same form of Freeza.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Watching the fight, there’s no indication Aka is stronger than SSJ Gotenks at all. Getting a SSJ-level guy to get la bit winded” is definitely not something a base Saiyan could ever do, nor deflect his blasts multiple times. Gotenks only got overwhelmed because Aka spammed them, even Piccolo could handle them otherwise.

Even the unfused fight is fairly one sides. Abo and Kado only overwhelm Goten and Trunks a bit based on their rusty technique (They use Afterimage I think) before and after that the boys stomp.

I was thinking: what if the Jiren fighting against Freeza-Goku-MVP17 at the end of Anime ToP is portraying his "raw" power-level without his perfect ki control?

As the others have pointed out, Jiren was completely worn out by this point, and so were the others. He literally got defeated by Base Freeza and Base/SSJ1 Goku. I think there are a couple occasions where we can see Jiren isn’t that strong if not 100% focused though: Vegeta gives Jiren a run for his money when he tries to use UI, Goku trades blows with Jiren evenly after the nigh ring out, and there’s 17’s blast burning Jiren.

Being equally matched with Freeza’s first form has no narrative sense because that’s only a fraction of Freeza’s strength, specially because the audience knows he can only be defeated by a Super Saiyan.

So Base Goten and Trunks > Namek SSJ Goku?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Abo and Cado are first form Frieza level. Aka is stated to surpass SSJ Gotenks according to Chozenshuu 4, so Aka=Final Form Frieza cannot be true. The Frieza level statement is specifically about Abo and Cado, but they aren't final form level as stated by Toyotaro so the only form that makes narrative sense is first form.

Aka>SSJ Gotenks(Yo! Son)>Full Power Frieza>Base Goten/Trunks>=Abo/Cado=First Form Frieza is what we get by synthesizing Chozenshuu 4 and Toyotaro's statements together.

Being equally matched with Freeza’s first form has no narrative sense because that’s only a fraction of Freeza’s strength, specially because the audience knows he can only be defeated by a Super Saiyan. If that was the case we would have to specify every form that Goku and Vegeta are been compared with other characters, which defeats the purpose of those comparisons.

So, for all intents and purposes, Tarble and Toyotaro were talking about the same form of Freeza.

It does make narrative sense since few people even knew that Frieza could transform. Only some of those that were close to him in the organization(Zarbon), the Z-fighters and the gods. This plot point doesn't change no matter how far into the story Frieza is brought up and is rarely the case for any other character. Toyotaro says that Namek Frieza is too high an estimate for Granola & Gas and compares them to Abo/Cado. However Abo/Cado is in fact stated to be equal to Frieza and that is individually, not fused. There is no indication that Tarble knows anything about Frieza's transformations and this is backed up by the fact that 1st form Frieza comes up when he speaks in the manga. Abo/Cado going from "Ginyu Force level"(40,000-120,000) to "Frieza level"(530,000) through repeated battles makes sense. Them being 120,000,000 does not. This is in-universe logic at play here.

[Koitsukai]

If we were to put numbers on base Broly, Vegeta, and Goku from the ToP/Broly era, what would those be?

Surely, above 150M for Goku and Vegeta, maybe like 200M by the time Broly is found? more? and Broly should be around that, and slowly getting up to levels of power that should put Super Buu in trouble, at the very least.
The Broly that kicked away that beast attacking Cheelai and Lemo, how many millions could he be?


What about Moro arc SS Vegeta on Namek? who's the strongest fella SS Vegeta could defeat from Z?
On a related note, is there any Buu iteration that could stand up to Old Moro, considering his magic is useless against him, and he'd be relying solely on his raw power?

[Hugo Boss]

However Abo/Cado is in fact stated to be equal to Frieza and that is individually, not fused.

It's not confirmed or denied that Tarble was only talking about their unfused form, while all the translations I've seen made very clear that Toyotaro was talking about their unfused form in the interview.

There is no indication that Tarble knows anything about Frieza's transformations and this is backed up by the fact that 1st form Frieza comes up when he speaks in the manga.

While I agree it doesn't make sense for him to know that, it's also weird that Tarble inexplicably had intel on Ginyu Force, Abo & Cado and Freeza's battle power, despite living on a far away planet, and only after seeing Super Saiyan Goku he became confident on their victory (doesn't it ring a bell, huh?). Seems very clear to me this is a case of suspension of disbelief. Or you might as well question if Base Goku is weaker than Base Goten and Trunks, and showing off Super Saiyan would have no narrative purpose.

Abo/Cado going from "Ginyu Force level"(40,000-120,000) to "Frieza level"(530,000) through repeated battles makes sense. Them being 120,000,000 does not. This is in-universe logic at play here.

I don't see how they jumping to 530,000 makes any sense either. Their power level was well established to be on Ginyu Force vicinity. For them to rival Freeza's first form individually without battling anyone close to his strength, it would require a leap in logic that even Dragon Ball Super didn't dare. For instance, Tagoma only came to surpass Ginyu Force, according to Sorbet, after he trained with Freeza himself. I think they figuring out on how to fuse makes way more sense to justify their power-up.

So Base Goten and Trunks > Namek SSJ Goku?

If Tarble was talking about their unfused form, then you would have exactly this strange scenario, but since Toyotaro clarified their unfused form is weaker than Freeza, then Tarble was either 1) way off on his assessment or 2) he was actually talking about their strongest form (merged Aka). Unless you disagree with Toyotaro, which is a different matter, but there is no reason to assume Toyotaro is talking about a version of Freeza that is any different from the one Tarble or Beerus mentioned. Come to think of it, Tarble guessed right that Super Saiyan Goku would be enough to defeat the siblings.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It's not confirmed or denied that Tarble was only talking about their unfused form, while all the translations I've seen made very clear that Toyotaro was talking about their unfused form in the interview.

Chouzenshuu 4 which is an updated Daizenshuu clarifies that the "equal to Frieza" statement applies to Abo/Cado.

Spoiler:

Aka surpasses Gotenks, therefore he cannot be equal to Frieza.

Spoiler:

While I agree it doesn't make sense for him to know that, it's also weird that Tarble inexplicably had intel on Ginyu Force, Abo & Cado and Freeza's battle power, despite living on a far away planet, and only after seeing Super Saiyan Goku he became confident on their victory (doesn't it ring a bell, huh?). Seems very clear to me this is a case of suspension of disbelief. Or you might as well question if Base Goku is weaker than Base Goten and Trunks, and showing off Super Saiyan would have no narrative purpose.

Unlike with the Beerus statement, Goku clearly gave off a weak base reading as we can see that it's in the 2 digits on Tarble's scouter, then he jumped straight to SSJ. The Frieza comparison hadn't even been made at that point, so I would guess the scene is just to demonstrate that battle power can easily change and that the Z-fighters were above any opposition troubling Tarble. We see that Aka needed SSJ Goku to beat in the end, so SSJ being shown off isn't narratively insignificant. Goku going SSJ in this instance isn't necessarily tied to being weaker than Final Form Frieza in Base although that is indeed true.

I don't see how they jumping to 530,000 makes any sense either. Their power level was well established to be on Ginyu Force vicinity. For them to rival Freeza's first form individually without battling anyone close to his strength, it would require a leap in logic that even Dragon Ball Super didn't dare. For instance, Tagoma only came to surpass Ginyu Force, according to Sorbet, after he trained with Freeza himself. I think they figuring out on how to fuse makes way more sense to justify their power-up.

Abo/Cado have been fighting constantly for about 12 years straight after Frieza's death based on the timeline. I don't think any of Frieza's top brass had that much exposure on the front lines. It was mostly fodder doing work and people like the Ginyu Force, Zarbon, Dodoria, etc were only delegated special missions.

[Hugo Boss]

Chouzenshuu 4 which is an updated Daizenshuu clarifies that the "equal to Frieza" statement applies to Abo/Cado.

Spoiler:

Aka surpasses Gotenks, therefore he cannot be equal to Frieza.

Spoiler:

Thank you for the images!

So.. according to this guidebook, Abo and Cado unfused are as strong as Freeza, and their fusion is stronger than SS Gotenks but weaker than SS Goku. Interesting. Basically: Base Goku (post-Boo arc) < Abo/Cado = Freeza (Namek) < SS Goku (Namek) < Base Goten/Trunks < Base Gotenks < SS Gotenks < Merged Aka < SS Goku (post-Boo arc).

First problem I’m seeing is that Base Goku is portrayed as weaker than Base Goten, but SS Goku is stronger than SS Gotenks. Second is Base Goten is stronger than Namek level SS Goku, despite his father not being that strong in the same form. Third problem is Gotenks being weaker than Goku, despite Goku being depicted as weaker than Goten in the normal form.

Of course, if it was using Freeza’s first form as the measure stick, the scenario would be less confusing: Abo/Cado=1st form Freeza < Base Goku (Namek) < Base Goten/Trunks < Base Gotenks < Base Goku (post-Boo arc) < Freeza (Namek) < SS Goku (Namek) < SS Gotenks < Merged Aka < SS Goku (post-Boo arc). It’s a shame the guidebook doesn’t confirm the siblings are only at Freeza’s first form level, though I think some people would still have a problem with Base Gotenks being weaker than Freeza’s final form.

[ZombieVito]

If we were to put numbers on base Broly, Vegeta, and Goku from the ToP/Broly era, what would those be?

Surely, above 150M for Goku and Vegeta, maybe like 200M by the time Broly is found? more? and Broly should be around that, and slowly getting up to levels of power that should put Super Buu in trouble, at the very least.
The Broly that kicked away that beast attacking Cheelai and Lemo, how many millions could he be?


What about Moro arc SS Vegeta on Namek? who's the strongest fella SS Vegeta could defeat from Z?
On a related note, is there any Buu iteration that could stand up to Old Moro, considering his magic is useless against him, and he'd be relying solely on his raw power?

200 million?

Even on the manga Goku is stronger than the Kaioshins in base by the ToP.

[Noah]

Guess now Freeza is only weaker than Beerus. I don't think Toyotaro will have the balls to this, but an arc all about of him trying to overthrow a GoD and having the latter finally using his full power would be an excellent premise.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Why did Tagoma say he was taking out Earth’s strongest fighter when he attacked Gohan? He can’t even sense Ki, and this is probably the most rusty Gohan’s ever been in the series. He didn’t even know if he could go SSJ, which was a surprise to even Freeza anyway.

[Goku9001]

Why did Tagoma say he was taking out Earth’s strongest fighter when he attacked Gohan? He can’t even sense Ki, and this is probably the most rusty Gohan’s ever been in the series. He didn’t even know if he could go SSJ, which was a surprise to even Freeza anyway.

We don't necessarily know how powerful Gohan was but it definitely seems to be direct confirmation that Base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo and co. At the time, Super Saiyan was expressed to be off the table to the viewer. I know Gohan claims that Frieza is stronger than he was at his peak which startles everyone. Some take that to mean that Frieza was stronger than Base Gohan at full power.

[Goku9001]

Abo and Cado are first form Frieza level. Aka is stated to surpass SSJ Gotenks according to Chozenshuu 4, so Aka=Final Form Frieza cannot be true. The Frieza level statement is specifically about Abo and Cado, but they aren't final form level as stated by Toyotaro so the only form that makes narrative sense is first form.

Aka>SSJ Gotenks(Yo! Son)>Full Power Frieza>Base Goten/Trunks>=Abo/Cado=First Form Frieza is what we get by synthesizing Chozenshuu 4 and Toyotaro's statements together.

Didn't Aka get trashed by base Gotenks?

He stood there waiting for Gotenks to attack to test his strength. Then he got up after being punched by SSJ Gotenks. A bit winded but smiled afterwards saying that Gotenks's power wasn't bad. Then Aka uses his Wahaha techniques and Gotenks can't stop them at all. Goku and Vegeta had to step in. So no I wouldn't say that the special shows Aka below Gotenks. The Chozenshuu confirms that Gotenks's attacks were in fact were not beyond what Aka could handle.

That is actually very interesting and insightful. Aka definitely did seem weaker than SSJ Gotenks but his initial reaction after the punch on top of SSJ Gotenks being completely powerless certainly does lead to the direction that Aka was more powerful. I guess it's possible that Aka was weaker but was superior since the kids' battle skills were poor.

But, I think it's something to consider and certainly points us in the direction that Goku was stronger than Gotenks as of Battle of Gods, at least according to the movie and anime. So it's actually pretty consistent.

[Koitsukai]

The movie doesn't have that Tagoma line, it doesn't even have Tagoma living that long lol. So it's anime land, where things can, should, must and will get messy.

I guess, he knew Gohan was a saiyan -in RoF, Freeza recognizes Gohan after he beats Shisami- and that he must've had the greatest potential of the present bunch? seems to be an authorial intent that wasn't greatly planned, they provided an out-of-universe power scale with no in-universe basis for the characters in question.
Considering the soldiers were alive all this time, it wouldn't be far-fetched to think they knew how strong the guys on Earth were, or who was next after Goku and Vegeta.

[Goku9001]

The movie doesn't have that Tagoma line, it doesn't even have Tagoma living that long lol. So it's anime land, where things can, should, must and will get messy.

I guess, he knew Gohan was a saiyan -in RoF, Freeza recognizes Gohan after he beats Shisami- and that he must've had the greatest potential of the present bunch? seems to be an authorial intent that wasn't greatly planned, they provided an out-of-universe power scale with no in-universe basis for the characters in question.
Considering the soldiers were alive all this time, it wouldn't be far-fetched to think they knew how strong the guys on Earth were, or who was next after Goku and Vegeta.

This wouldn't be the first time. Things get really messy with Piccolo in the U6 Tournament and then what we are shown with his training session with Ultimate Gohan.

[Hugo Boss]

I think this is merely Tagoma making a fair assumption based on his enhanced battle skills, as well as their intel pointing to Gohan being the son of the Saiyan that defeated Freeza.

By the way, elite fighters being able to sense which opponent has the greatest potential is also a common trope on shonen stories, so I think we should not be too hung up on the particular form Gohan is being observed while the comment is made.