Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

From where I stand, having watched every animated episode from both tv series and movies, I think this comparison between SS4 and SSG is still kinda inconclusive.

Not only because I don’t put much stock on what the GT anime comic brings up about fusion and SS4, as VegettoEX pretty much told us to not be hung up on it. But because SSG on DBZ:BoG had a completely different powerscaling treatment from SSG on DBS:Broly and on most of DBS recent story arcs, and it’s almost impossible to not notice that SSG was originally written as a decent opponent for Beerus while current SSG may not even have 1% of Beerus’ strength.

Retroactively, the tidbit about fusion being implied to be less efficient in battle than god forms has been readapted. The anime merged Saiyan warrior Kefla completely overwhelmed SSG Goku while not even using transformations. And before that point Kale and Caulifla using their strongest forms were no match for SSG Goku. So, you can’t really say that Gogeta from the movie is stronger than SSGSS Goku merely because Goku and Vegeta have god forms. If the original manga has any say about it is that fusion’s power depends on the power the fusees were mustering in the moment they activated the fusion (that’s why they had to practice the power equivalency ki control before performing the poses).

So, I firmly stick with the stance that SSG’s spot established in Battle of Gods of being stronger than non-god level Saiyan fusions has probably been transferred to Saiyan ultra forms, like Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego. By extension, I currently have no problem with DB Heroes’ take on SS4 being equally matched with SSGSS. Unless in the future we have a new kind of story that will make us rethink all this stuff.

[QuakingStar]

You are right Hugo, SSG being stronger than fusion was retconned starting at the ToP. Potara Fusion Kefla in base no difs SSG Goku. Fusion Dance Gogeta in base fairs much better against SS Broly than either SSB Goku or SSB Vegeta then goes on to go SS right after that so he was NOT using God-like Saiyan. Therefor base form fusion is above the SSGod transformation. SS4 on the other hand is compared to a hypothetical Vegito in power and this is the form itself, not the form plus the user. At the time this comparison was made Potara's base formula was still user A x user B. Then we have the heroes anime and the GT anime, which as we know SS4 is anime originated, with base Xeno Goku seemingly tied up with base Goku, then they tie again with SS4 and SSB. So as far as the power of SS4 goes it's currently treated as above SSG but comparable to SSB. SSG being stronger than fusion, as well as the formulas for fusion themselves have since been retconned. So SSB ~ SS4 > SSG.

[Miracles]

I wouldn't call SSG being outpaced by fusions as the story went on a retcon. Since enemies get stronger and stronger, therefore their fusees [at least one of them] would have power surpassing SSG. Thus making their fusions substantially more powerful than red. Who at the beginning of Super was stronger than fusion..

[Grimlock]

Your old reminder that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 4 are not equal in Dragon Ball Heroes. Again, context and circumstances:

• Firstly, the Goku in question is one that comes after Dragon Ball Super Broly (and before Moro and Granolah sagas, if you want to take those into consideration), so he is from around AGE 780. The other Goku in question comes at some point after Dragon Ball GT, so he is from after AGE 790. We are talking about a gap of at least ten years apart. That means their power level in base form cannot be the same.

• Secondly, we have the events experienced, one has Dragon Ball Super (up until Dragon Ball Super Broly) events under his career, while the other has Dragon Ball GT. Neither has experienced each other's events. That means the power attained and the power progression of each Goku cannot be the same.

• Thirdly, we have the outcome of their fight. Xeno Goku explicitly said that Goku was "one step above him" and he was panting, whereas Goku was okay after the battle. That means Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Xeno Goku during the Prison Planet saga.

A more fair match would have to be about Goku and Xeno Goku from the very same time period and with the same events experienced. Only then would we know if these transformations have the same multiplier (or which one of them has the higher one). For now, all we can say is that, under the context Heroes provided, Goku and Xeno Goku, in their aforementioned states, are the ones almost equally matched, not their respective transformations themselves. Had any of the circumstances above been any different, the outcome of their fight would have been different too. Besides the Super Saiyan multipliers, nothing else is set in stone, everything else can (and most likely will) change eventually.


Please keep these very important details in mind, and always try to take into consideration the context.

[TobyS]

Your old reminder that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 4 are not equal in Dragon Ball Heroes. Again, context and circumstances:

• Firstly, the Goku in question is one that comes after Dragon Ball Super Broly (and before Moro and Granolah sagas, if you want to take those into consideration), so he is from around AGE 780. The other Goku in question comes at some point after Dragon Ball GT, so he is from after AGE 790. We are talking about a gap of at least ten years apart. That means their power level in base form cannot be the same.

• Secondly, we have the events experienced, one has Dragon Ball Super (up until Dragon Ball Super Broly) events under his career, while the other has Dragon Ball GT. Neither has experienced each other's events. That means the power attained and the power progression of each Goku cannot be the same.

• Thirdly, we have the outcome of their fight. Xeno Goku explicitly said that Goku was "one step above him" and he was panting, whereas Goku was okay after the battle. That means Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Xeno Goku during the Prison Planet saga.

A more fair match would have to be about Goku and Xeno Goku from the very same time period and with the same events experienced. Only then would we know if these transformations have the same multiplier (or which one of them has the higher one). For now, all we can say is that, under the context Heroes provided, Goku and Xeno Goku, in their aforementioned states, are the ones almost equally matched, not their respective transformations themselves. Had any of the circumstances above been any different, the outcome of their fight would have been different too. Besides the Super Saiyan multipliers, nothing else is set in stone, everything else can (and most likely will) change eventually.


Please keep these very important details in mind, and always try to take into consideration the context.

Also at the start of Heroes in the manga Chronoa chucks Goku and Trunks into a time rift to train to their max.

Their bases get so strong Goku can fight Final form freeza empowered by the dark DB's when fighting alongside SS1 Goku and Base Trunks.

So it's not just the pre GT gains he has.

To me this has to mean ss4 has a lower multiplier if his base is obviously higher.

How God would compare, or how Limit breaker would compare is interesting.

[Koitsukai]

Kefla is made of U6 Broly. Kale's rage overpowered SSB for a moment, this happened in both media, implying she has potential that could rival beyond SSG. And her fusion, which brings out power beyond the fusees potential, surpasses SSG. I don't see any retcon here, I see a a prodigy who progresses fast as fuck, and a freak of nature with a freakish green SS form that wasn't far from SSG, fusing and entering the realm of the god forms.

Besides, Toei is the outlier, in the manga, closer to Toriyama's intent, Kefla isn't even that strong, so it's disingenuous to use her as some proof for SSG having been retconned, specially when the anime has plenty of writers who contradict each other.
"Kefla did this"... well Kefla wasn't able to do that on this other take on the story, which one are we going to use? which one has more weight? in any case, it makes sense to me when one of her fusees was making SSG put on some work, even though Toei went nuts with her potential later.

To conclude SSG has been retconned, I'd expect both media to agree on it, or at least happen in the one that Toriyama was more involved with, not to have evident discrepancies between each other. If somebody can retcon a form it's Toriyama, not Toei.
Fusion isn't set, Gogeta wasn't going to be the same as in the Janemba Movie if it happened vs android 19, it depends on the fusees, and in this case one of them is U6's LSS, powerwise, that's a blank check.

[QuakingStar]

I wouldn't call SSG being outpaced by fusions as the story went on a retcon. Since enemies get stronger and stronger, therefore their fusees [at least one of them] would have power surpassing SSG. Thus making their fusions substantially more powerful than red. Who at the beginning of Super was stronger than fusion..

No that argument makes no sense, the only other way to use SSG's power in base is to be using God-like Saiyan state, and if you are in that state you transform directly to SSB instead of SS, well guess what? Gogeta then transformed into SS, NOT SSB as he later on transformed AGAIN into SSB to fight FPSS Broly. BUT God-like Saiyan state stopped being a thing when they brought SSGod back. Therefor Gogeta was just using normal base form and still was better off than SSB Goku or SSB Vegeta. Kefla herself was in base form, never had God Ki therefor no God-like Saiyan. Kefla base eclipsed SSG Goku period, he was zero match for her. Retcons are a thing, they happen and in this case SSG's scale of power has been dropped from what it was in BoG. By the time of Aeos tournament base Xeno Goku and base CC Goku seemed pretty tied, though CC Goku blocked his hit more casually, when they transformed they were yet again tied. Xeno Goku in base was never confirmed stronger than CC Goku in base, the only time that was even hinted at was the Prison Planet Saga and CC Goku got astronomically stronger since that time, even training with the Grand Priest, then yet again he gets a power boost when he trains with Vegeta in a make-shift time chamber, then after they yet again gets stronger when he absorbs the power of the Universe Tree and though he didn't KEEP SSB (Universal) he most assuredly got his overall power heightened from that period of time. Xeno Goku is no longer stronger than CC Goku in base, and in fact they are again shown to be tied up, even after transforming.

Long story short: base fusion > SSB ~ SS4 > SSG.

[Hugo Boss]

• Thirdly, we have the outcome of their fight. Xeno Goku explicitly said that Goku was "one step above him" and he was panting, whereas Goku was okay after the battle. That means Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Xeno Goku during the Prison Planet saga.

I wouldn’t say this necessarily constitutes a rebuttal to what I said, since the outcome of their fight was never showed in the promotional anime, which is what the broader audience is probably more familiar with. But it’s an interesting outcome, anyway. I guess a reason could be that SSGSS has better ki control than SS4 instead of pure strength advantage? That difference would likely start to appear the more the fight prolongs. By the way, I agree with the points above, the context and circumstances from each version we are putting on a versus are important to consider.

Kefla is made of U6 Broly. Kale's rage overpowered SSB for a moment, this happened in both media, implying she has potential that could rival beyond SSG. And her fusion, which brings out power beyond the fusees potential, surpasses SSG. I don't see any retcon here, I see a a prodigy who progresses fast as fuck, and a freak of nature with a freakish green SS form that wasn't far from SSG, fusing and entering the realm of the god forms.

Besides, Toei is the outlier, in the manga, closer to Toriyama's intent, Kefla isn't even that strong, so it's disingenuous to use her as some proof for SSG having been retconned, specially when the anime has plenty of writers who contradict each other.
"Kefla did this"... well Kefla wasn't able to do that on this other take on the story, which one are we going to use? which one has more weight? in any case, it makes sense to me when one of her fusees was making SSG put on some work, even though Toei went nuts with her potential later.

To conclude SSG has been retconned, I'd expect both media to agree on it, or at least happen in the one that Toriyama was more involved with, not to have evident discrepancies between each other. If somebody can retcon a form it's Toriyama, not Toei.
Fusion isn't set, Gogeta wasn't going to be the same as in the Janemba Movie if it happened vs android 19, it depends on the fusees, and in this case one of them is U6's LSS, powerwise, that's a blank check.

Actually, I don’t think SSG was retconned. That would require some level of acknowledgment that neither the tv series nor the manga nor the movies cared to provide. I think each one of those works have their own power structure that substantially differ from each other. Heck, they differ even inside their own self limits. None of them have more weight than the other.

I only thought it was worth pointing out that in one specific scenario you can fuse two Saiyan warriors whose regular forms were probably inferior or at best equal to Goku’s, and they managed to surpass SSG. Yeah, Kale’s unique version of Super Saiyan might be worth considering in SS Kefla’s assessments, but I’m particularly talking about her base form here. Kale’s base form in the manga is totally different as well.

[ZombieVito]

People also need to remember than Goku was not at 100% during the Kefla fight. I wouldn't be shocked if a fresh SSG Goku would have matched base Kefla.

I also agree with the fusion taking into consideration the potential of the fusees.

[Miracles]

I wouldn't call SSG being outpaced by fusions as the story went on a retcon. Since enemies get stronger and stronger, therefore their fusees [at least one of them] would have power surpassing SSG. Thus making their fusions substantially more powerful than red. Who at the beginning of Super was stronger than fusion..

No that argument makes no sense, the only other way to use SSG's power in base is to be using God-like Saiyan state, and if you are in that state you transform directly to SSB instead of SS, well guess what? Gogeta then transformed into SS, NOT SSB as he later on transformed AGAIN into SSB to fight FPSS Broly. BUT God-like Saiyan state stopped being a thing when they brought SSGod back. Therefor Gogeta was just using normal base form and still was better off than SSB Goku or SSB Vegeta. Kefla herself was in base form, never had God Ki therefor no God-like Saiyan. Kefla base eclipsed SSG Goku period, he was zero match for her. Retcons are a thing, they happen and in this case SSG's scale of power has been dropped from what it was in BoG. By the time of Aeos tournament base Xeno Goku and base CC Goku seemed pretty tied, though CC Goku blocked his hit more casually, when they transformed they were yet again tied. Xeno Goku in base was never confirmed stronger than CC Goku in base, the only time that was even hinted at was the Prison Planet Saga and CC Goku got astronomically stronger since that time, even training with the Grand Priest, then yet again he gets a power boost when he trains with Vegeta in a make-shift time chamber, then after they yet again gets stronger when he absorbs the power of the Universe Tree and though he didn't KEEP SSB (Universal) he most assuredly got his overall power heightened from that period of time. Xeno Goku is no longer stronger than CC Goku in base, and in fact they are again shown to be tied up, even after transforming.

Long story short: base fusion > SSB ~ SS4 > SSG.

So you believe SSG from BoG or during RoF is stronger than fusion? After Goku and Vegeta achieved Blue.

[Grimlock]

I wouldn’t say this necessarily constitutes a rebuttal to what I said, since the outcome of their fight was never showed in the promotional anime, which is what the broader audience is probably more familiar with.

That is irrelevant. The "main" continuity of Dragon Ball Heroes is the arcade, regardless if it's what the audience is more familiar or not. The anime is its adaptation and a bad one at that, as it's just eight-minute episodes that leave out a lot of content and context. And for that, it's really difficult to make strong arguments basing off of it.

[Hugo Boss]

I wouldn’t say this necessarily constitutes a rebuttal to what I said, since the outcome of their fight was never showed in the promotional anime, which is what the broader audience is probably more familiar with.

That is irrelevant. The "main" continuity of Dragon Ball Heroes is the arcade, regardless if it's what the audience is more familiar or not. The anime is its adaptation and a bad one at that, as it's just eight-minute episodes that leave out a lot of content and context. And for that, it's really difficult to make strong arguments basing off of it.

Again, I’m not understanding what point you are trying to make here, as I never said the anime supersedes the arcade game or vice-versa, specially because in this particular case they don’t necessarily contradict each other.

And by the way, as usual these kind of questions always dwelve into this overly pedantic and tiresome “continuity” debate. You may like discussing or lecturing about this stuff, but I honestly don’t care about it. I’m just presenting my own opinion about a what-if versus scenario that is really up to anyone guess.

[QuakingStar]

Regardless if what people think about Goku not being fresh affecting his fight with Kefla, in the Broly movie base Gogeta clearly is better off than SSB Goku and Vegeta. Plain old SS Gogeta did far, far better against SS Broly, tying him.

@Miracle No, after they achieved Blue it's likely that was when Gods power scale was retconned. We just aren't shown that until a bit later.

[Koitsukai]

Fusions are usually stronger in base than their fusee's strongest forms, whatever that might be. It's quite simple, really.
DBS Base Gogeta >> SSB Goku
FT Base Vegito >> SSB Goku
Z Base Vegito >> SS3 Goku (in the anime he's much stronger)
Merged Zamasu >> SSRose Black
Base Kefla >> LSS Kale (she was close enough to SSG, and her fusion surpassed that in base)
Base Gotenks >> SS Trunks

Fusion starts that strong, whatever that is(SSB level, SSG level, SS level, Yamcha level), because of the fusees. The fusee's base form has nothing to do here, the god-like base forms disappearing is irrelevant, what matters are their strongest forms.
Fusion has consistently been shown (when we are shown what they can do in base form, at least) to be already stronger, just in base, than their strongest fusee at FP. Sometimes slightly stronger, sometimes much stronger in base than their strongest fusee's FP (both times it was Toei doing the latter)

SSG was above fusion only at that moment in time, not forever, it was when the fusee's strongest form couldn't compete with SSG and also this new form was great enough to surpass the full scope of fusion at that particular time*. But after they unlocked that form, SSG is another level of power already available in base form for the fusion. SSG wasn't retconned, it was fusion that got updated.

*Just like Moro arc UI surpassed SSB Gogeta from the movie, but now that form is on Goku's pocket so current base Gogeta should be stronger than current UI Goku. Again, UI wasn't retconned, fusion just got another update.
SSG > Fusion 1.0 at FP
Base Fusion 2.0 >> SSG and SSB
UI >> Fusion 2.0 at FP
Base Fusion 3.0 >> UI

[GreatSaiyaman123]

At what tier would Ultimate Piccolo be if he loses Kami and Nail?

Just like p-hyvo said, Kami more or less doubled Piccolo's power while Nail made him 5x stronger according to guidebook info and Nail himself (more or less: But the original statement suggests just a handful of times a boost). So Ultimate Piccolo would be 10x weaker. If he was close to SSJB Goku's current power, I guess getting 10x weaker would make him close to start of ToP SSJB Goku.

Haven't watched Super yet, but I was thinking about the SSJG vs SSJ4 debates from back in 2013/2014. I actually like both, but the more I think about it, the more it seems that SSJG is the most absurdly powerful powerup the series has ever done. Super just seems absurd with its power levels, even compared to GT.

I just made a point SSJ4 being Blue level in the Versus thread, but being seeing Koitsukai and Grimlock's posts pulled me back from it. Xeno Goku is considerably stronger than GT Goku so it's not a fair comparison. The chinese guidebook/pamphlet should definitely be taken as something like "Z SSJ4 Goku ~ Z Super Vegetto" and "GT SSJ4 Goku ~ GT SSJ Vegetto". As in, SSJ4 provides a boost similar to fusion. It's a bit confusing though since neither seem to have concrete multipliers: Fusion depends on several factors and SSJ4 is a potential unlock. But on the other hand, SSJG is shown to be superior to fusion in Battle of Gods.

SSJ3 Goku is weaker than Baby Vegeta. Baby Vegeta transforms twice (Both transformations are implied to be his variants of SSJ2 and 3 by the GT Perfect Files) and then goes Oozaru to match SSJ4 Goku. That's a 80x increase over GT SSJ3 Goku. BoGs paints SSJG as hundreds of times SSJ3, but both the ToP and Broly imply it's around 10x. Kale was getting destroyed and by getting tens of times stronger merging with Caulifla she overwhelmed SSJG Goku. Then Broly went from tanking SSJ Vegeta to tanking SSJG Vegeta with Ikari.

So yeah, I think I have no idea. We have to figure out what SSJG/SSJB even are to begin with.

If the original manga has any say about it is that fusion’s power depends on the power the fusees were mustering in the moment they activated the fusion (that’s why they had to practice the power equivalency ki control before performing the poses).

But Caulifla and Kale merged as Super Saiyans. Is that why she's so strong?

I wouldn't call SSG being outpaced by fusions as the story went on a retcon. Since enemies get stronger and stronger, therefore their fusees [at least one of them] would have power surpassing SSG. Thus making their fusions substantially more powerful than red. Who at the beginning of Super was stronger than fusion..

I think this is where the old "fusion is as impressive as multiplication" comes in. It might not be literal AxB thing, but it's definitely fair to say the stronger the fusers, the bigger the boost.

Fusions are usually stronger in base than their fusee's strongest forms, whatever that might be. It's quite simple, really.
DBS Base Gogeta >> SSB Goku
FT Base Vegito >> SSB Goku
Z Base Vegito >> SS3 Goku (in the anime he's much stronger)
Merged Zamasu >> SSRose Black
Base Kefla >> LSS Kale (she was close enough to SSG, and her fusion surpassed that in base)
Base Gotenks >> SS Trunks

Fusion starts that strong, whatever that is(SSB level, SSG level, SS level, Yamcha level), because of the fusees. The fusee's base form has nothing to do here, the god-like base forms disappearing is irrelevant, what matters are their strongest forms.
Fusion has consistently been shown (when we are shown what they can do in base form, at least) to be already stronger, just in base, than their strongest fusee at FP. Sometimes slightly stronger, sometimes much stronger in base than their strongest fusee's FP (both times it was Toei doing the latter)

SSG was above fusion only at that moment in time, not forever, it was when the fusee's strongest form couldn't compete with SSG and also this new form was great enough to surpass the full scope of fusion at that particular time*. But after they unlocked that form, SSG is another level of power already available in base form for the fusion. SSG wasn't retconned, it was fusion that got updated.

*Just like Moro arc UI surpassed SSB Gogeta from the movie, but now that form is on Goku's pocket so current base Gogeta should be stronger than current UI Goku. Again, UI wasn't retconned, fusion just got another update.
SSG > Fusion 1.0 at FP
Base Fusion 2.0 >> SSG and SSB
UI >> Fusion 2.0 at FP
Base Fusion 3.0 >> UI

I like looking at it like this:
Fusion Dance = tens of times base fusers
Potara = tens of times peak fusers

Base Gotenks is weaker than SSJ Goku in YSG! so there's a cap to his power. SSJ Goku is definitely at least 100x Base Goten and Trunks. Kefla is clearly tens of times the transformed girls unless we consider Vados to be vastly understating her power. Gogeta gets a Potara-sized boost because of the rival boost and the promotional material saying he's as strong as Vegetto.

And in a hypothetical case where the fusers can't transform, the only difference would be Potara is a higher tens of times. Like 80x to metamorian being 30x. For the Saiyans I like sticking with 20x though.

[QuakingStar]

Fusions are usually stronger in base than their fusee's strongest forms, whatever that might be. It's quite simple, really.
DBS Base Gogeta >> SSB Goku
FT Base Vegito >> SSB Goku
Z Base Vegito >> SS3 Goku (in the anime he's much stronger)
Merged Zamasu >> SSRose Black
Base Kefla >> LSS Kale (she was close enough to SSG, and her fusion surpassed that in base)
Base Gotenks >> SS Trunks

Fusion starts that strong, whatever that is(SSB level, SSG level, SS level, Yamcha level), because of the fusees. The fusee's base form has nothing to do here, the god-like base forms disappearing is irrelevant, what matters are their strongest forms.
Fusion has consistently been shown (when we are shown what they can do in base form, at least) to be already stronger, just in base, than their strongest fusee at FP. Sometimes slightly stronger, sometimes much stronger in base than their strongest fusee's FP (both times it was Toei doing the latter)

SSG was above fusion only at that moment in time, not forever, it was when the fusee's strongest form couldn't compete with SSG and also this new form was great enough to surpass the full scope of fusion at that particular time*. But after they unlocked that form, SSG is another level of power already available in base form for the fusion. SSG wasn't retconned, it was fusion that got updated.

*Just like Moro arc UI surpassed SSB Gogeta from the movie, but now that form is on Goku's pocket so current base Gogeta should be stronger than current UI Goku. Again, UI wasn't retconned, fusion just got another update.
SSG > Fusion 1.0 at FP
Base Fusion 2.0 >> SSG and SSB
UI >> Fusion 2.0 at FP
Base Fusion 3.0 >> UI

If this was the case, then the fusion wouldn't be able to transform into SS or anything, and if they did it would add nothing to the fusions power since base fusion would already be using and accounting for each individuals highest form and its power.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I see it, all this Fusion talk forgets one key factor: potential.

The potential of the combined fighters changes as the fighters themselves change and grow.

The potential of Goku and Vegeta forming a brand new warrior before wasn't as high as it is now that they've achieved much greater heights. Now sure, this is basically just "as strong as the plot makes them", but it's a convenient excuse to not have any kind of set level.

=

As far as SSG is concerned, I've always contended that Goku and Vegeta became much stronger as a whole as they learned to tap into SSG at will. So, while SSG itself remains at a fairly comparable level of power as before, Goku and Vegeta are much closer to it now than they were before the ritual and godly training.

Given base Goku's fight with Uub in the End of Z, as well as pre-DBS potential Vegito's comparison to SSG, I think putting Goku and Vegeta around as strong as Vegito was back when they fought Buu makes sense. Vegito's base form was comparable to Majin Buu, and his Super Saiyan forms were inferior to SSG at the time.

This would put SSG at appreciably stronger than Vegito at the time, but still be a merely a decent upgrade from SS3 for Goku and Vegeta nowadays.

[Miracles]

@Miracle No, after they achieved Blue it's likely that was when Gods power scale was retconned. We just aren't shown that until a bit later.

A fusion with god ki would naturally be stronger than a single with god ki. It's just Dragonball 101.

[Koitsukai]

If this was the case, then the fusion wouldn't be able to transform into SS or anything, and if they did it would add nothing to the fusions power since base fusion would already be using and accounting for each individuals highest form and its power.

Why not? if they couldn't they would just be fusing into somebody that's slightly stronger. Clearly it isn't the case.

The fusion, to surpass the strongest fusee, only needs to use the power of that person and a bit of the other fusee, having still a lot of room for improvement: like, say 90% of the remaining power of Vegeta, so Gogeta can go blue on top of Goku's blue.
But this can only happen if they have those forms, not when they don't have them like in the Buu arc. Back then it was blond forms on top of blond forms, not getting them into SSG territory just yet. So no retcon, just upgraded fusees creating a stronger fusion.
Kefla got there because of her green and blonde forms, and the green form wasn't that far away from SSG to begin with.

It's a two-engine car, each engine makes a car go 400km/h. Using only one engine the car goes 400km/h or more (because it might get help from the other one) and has still another engine left to double on that. With Kefla, one of the engines has nitrous oxide to go the extra mile.

[QuakingStar]

@Miracle No, after they achieved Blue it's likely that was when Gods power scale was retconned. We just aren't shown that until a bit later.

A fusion with god ki would naturally be stronger than a single with god ki. It's just Dragonball 101.

No, they don't have God Ki at all times. The use God Ki via the actual God forms. Gogeta was not using God Ki until SSB.

It doesn't matter how much mental gymnastics are being used to try and justify it, SSG simply had its scale of power retconned. When they were speaking of fusion in BoG they were referring to the power given using the SSG form vs the power given using fusion and at THAT time SSG would have given more power. It was clearly changed later as Kale in base form even after getting angry is weak in the anime, caulifla is definitely weaker than Goku and Vegeta too. Yet their base Fusion Dance fusion completely with no dif outclassed SSG Goku when before he had a comfortable advantage on the both of them.

In DBS Broly, the Fusion Dance again in base does better than SSG Goku and Vegeta and debatably even SSGSS. Potara Vegito in base also was shown stronger than SSGSS Goku and SSGSS Vegeta. It means the power gained from the fusion formula in either account, is higher than the power gained from the SSG or the SSGSS form, of course this was NOT the case back in BoG.

Now when it comes to potential I'm positive each users potential is part of the fusion, but it doesn't mean the fusion draws the potential out.