Unpopular DB opinions

[Kamiccolo9]

^I came here to say the opposite. I don't think that's unpopular, considering Its easier to find hate than love about Super.

Personally, I'm enjoying Super. I think its great.
Super BOG arc > BOG Movie. I expect the ROF arc to be improved too.

I don't hate Super. I haven't seen it, as I'm waiting for a legitimate release.

That doesn't keep it from being entirely filler at this point, though. It's literally just padding out already existent storylines so that they can work on a new thing. It's no different than Bulma and the Crab.

[nickzambuto]

I don't know why so many people think of Piccolo as the brains behind the Dragon Team. In the beginning he was just a loudmouthed ogre. After fusing with Nail he chilled out, but he was hardly the most strategically inclined member of the group. After fusing with Kami he became very wise, but still, to me Vegeta has the better record of effective tactics between the two, and Goku is the better leader since everything rallies behind him. Piccolo is more like the rock of the group, no matter how silly or hectic things become you can always count on Piccolo to maintain his common sense. But as a strategist, it's Vegeta all the way.

[Gaffer Tape]

I'll give Vegeta being a good strategist up through the Freeza arc. But from that point on, his strategies consist of "get really angry and fire a huge blast at it" and "let the artificial human grab me and suck out my energy so that I can ascertain that he sucks out energy... even though I already know that he sucks out energy." I'd say that Piccolo strategizes a lot more and a lot more consistently. In his introductory arc, Piccolo is pretty much just a standard, cackling bad guy. But by the Saiyan arc, he is already the main strategist of the group, coming up with two multiple-person attack strategies during that battle, and that's well before Nail. Granted, the examples do start to dry up there since everyone gets dumber as the series goes on. But he does help organize the groups during the Cell arc and the Boo arc.

[TheGreatness25]

That's just how Piccolo is portrayed. Piccolo is portrayed as Gohan's trainer and a figure he greatly respects, despite only training him for one year. Even after leaving the Room of Spirit and Time, Gohan comes straight to Piccolo and wants clothes like Piccolo's. Then, Piccolo is there to oversee Goten and Trunks' training. His role is basically to be the wise battle expert. It's better than him just blending into the background.

[SylentEcho]

I don't know why so many people think of Piccolo as the brains behind the Dragon Team. In the beginning he was just a loudmouthed ogre. After fusing with Nail he chilled out, but he was hardly the most strategically inclined member of the group. After fusing with Kami he became very wise, but still, to me Vegeta has the better record of effective tactics between the two, and Goku is the better leader since everything rallies behind him. Piccolo is more like the rock of the group, no matter how silly or hectic things become you can always count on Piccolo to maintain his common sense. But as a strategist, it's Vegeta all the way.

Vegeta was an excellent strategist till he got blinded by surpassing Goku in strength. He was brilliant in the Namek arc and got his brains back in the Boo arc. Everything in between, was him rushing head-on into fights. He's still very clever; he completely went against his own nature in order to keep Beerus calm. Piccolo is the most level headed, but I don't think any of the Z fighters qualify as "leaders". They're just a group that stick together and fight bad guys.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm not seeing how he was "brilliant," even on Namek. If "I'll avoid people who are stronger than me until I get stronger than them" and "I'll fight people that I should know are stronger than me because I now think I am stronger than them" are "brilliant strategies," I guess that makes me Alexander the Great or something.

[Ree]

Since Bulma and the frog was brought up I like that episode but eveyone hates it

[nickzambuto]

I'll give Vegeta being a good strategist up through the Freeza arc. But from that point on, his strategies consist of "get really angry and fire a huge blast at it" and "let the artificial human grab me and suck out my energy so that I can ascertain that he sucks out energy... even though I already know that he sucks out energy." I'd say that Piccolo strategizes a lot more and a lot more consistently. In his introductory arc, Piccolo is pretty much just a standard, cackling bad guy. But by the Saiyan arc, he is already the main strategist of the group, coming up with two multiple-person attack strategies during that battle, and that's well before Nail. Granted, the examples do start to dry up there since everyone gets dumber as the series goes on. But he does help organize the groups during the Cell arc and the Boo arc.

I find Vegeta's mistakes to be greatly overstated by certain fans, with his accomplishments often ignored or forgotten about. When Dr. Gero had the power to crush Vegeta with ease, was mentally psyching him out with mere words and tricking him into running away in fear so that Vegeta could recover his strength not a brilliant ploy? Yes Vegeta did let his own power get to his head by allowing Cell to become perfect, but let's not forget he immediately turned it back around on Cell by appealing to the android's own arrogance and manipulating him into taking the Final Flash head on, when Vegeta KNEW it was powerful enough to destroy him. And Vegeta was right; Cell has his whole side obliterated, if not for cheating plot-device regeneration Vegeta would have won the whole Androids arc right then and there. This proves that it takes more than a power advantage to beat Vegeta; you also need hax, because if Cell was exactly the same as he is, smart, strong, and 5x more powerful than Vegeta, but just without regeneration, he would have lost to Vegeta fair and square.

You say that everything after the Freeza arc is just Vegeta being emotional and foolish, but look at the two characters who I just brought up that he was able to manipulate and outsmart even when at severe power disadvantages; Dr. Gero, the scientist with enough intelligence to create robots who can destroy whole worlds and surpass Freeza in power, and Cell, the "perfect warrior" with all the knowledge and tactical skill of the greatest fighters in the universe. Vegeta is so consistent in his ability to identify mental weaknesses and play on them that it really bothers me how so few fans give him credit. He's outsmarted virtually every notable brain in the Dragon Ball universe; after only having interacted with Goku for the span of a few minutes, Vegeta already knew how to manipulate Goku and take the advantage by threatening the Earth instead and using his strongest attack... Sure it didn't work, but Goku needed a Kaioken x4. He was ALREADY stronger than Vegeta at Kaioken x3, so this just goes to show, Vegeta was the first opponent who Goku could not outfight, he had to resort to purely outmuscling him. And even when that DIDN'T work, Vegeta still came back with another backup plan; Oozaru. Krillin is another very underrated tactician in the series, he outsmarted Piccolo a couple times during their fight, yet when Krillin had total surprise and planned to remove Vegeta's tail, Vegeta predicted the entire plan just as soon as he saw Gohan fly over. THAT is straight up superhuman strategic skill.

Vegeta is the prince of the Saiyans, so of course he is a master strategist; he was meant to lead the greatest army in the universe. Goku might be the fighting genius, but that's micro, whereas Vegeta is macro. Goku is a tactician, Vegeta is a strategist. Look at the fight against Kid Boo, when Earth was destroyed, only a handful of warriors remained, and the heroes were fighting an unstoppable opponent. It wasn't Goku calling the shots nor the Kais; it was Vegeta. Same thing in Battle of Gods, Vegeta was the main guy, the guy in control. King Kai could have contacted anybody on Earth, but he chose Vegeta to be the one to keep Beerus in check. Vegeta is the guy in charge, he just needs Goku's charisma to actually lead, and bam we get the Dragon Team.

My favorite is on Babidi's spaceship, when Vegeta had been looking forward to his rematch with Goku for so many years, yet quickly realized the gap between them hadn't changed. Rather than go cry and scream about it like your post is implying he would, or get some random dues ex powerup from sheer rage like other characters do, Vegeta figured out a way to become stronger by using his brain. With his mere words, not even directed at Dabura, he was able to push the correct emotional buttons on the Demon King's psyche to give him the idea of making Vegeta a Majin, at which point Dabura retreated and relayed the story to Babidi who also had the correct emotional buttons pressed by Dabura who was just a proxy to agree with it. Babidi, the million bajillion year old evil wizard who has traveled the whole universe and is the enemy of the Kais, thought he was in charge when he took over Vegeta's mind. In reality everything was going according to Vegeta's plans, all the while he gave no clues that he even had a plan at all. Neither Goku nor Gohan nor Kaioshin realized what Vegeta was doing the entire time. Vegeta was facing a combat genius, a noteworthy scholar, a god of the universe, the king of the demon realm, and an immortal wizard planning universal domination, and he tricked them ALL with nothing but his words. THAT is absolutely brilliant manipulation, Vegeta is a psychological GENIUS. Who cares if he gets angry once in awhile, seriously the amount of times he goes berserk and makes a mistake are way overstated by some fans, at least in comparison to the amount of times he is totally in control and being a real Prince of Saiyans. Maybe it's because those moments are a lot more subtle than the moments of Vegeta raging, so they stick in people's minds less. Regardless, Vegeta deserves more credit as the strategic genius he is.

[Gaffer Tape]

I find Vegeta's mistakes to be greatly overstated by certain fans, with his accomplishments often ignored or forgotten about. When Dr. Gero had the power to crush Vegeta with ease, was mentally psyching him out with mere words and tricking him into running away in fear so that Vegeta could recover his strength not a brilliant ploy?

It was a good bluff, but I hesitate giving him credit for it because, as I said, he would never have needed to bluff #20 if he hadn't stupidly let himself get weakened in the first place. If he hadn't, he could have taken #20 right then and there. Either we assume Piccolo was correct, and Vegeta was testing to see if it was true (which was not needed), or Vegeta was simply being arrogant and wanted to prove getting his power sucked didn't mean anything. Either way, the point remains that he didn't make a mistake or get caught off guard. He purposely put himself in a position where he would have to gamble on being able to bluff #20. To me, that's not good strategy. That's him trying to cover up his own unnecessary blunder.

My favorite is on Babidi's spaceship, when Vegeta had been looking forward to his rematch with Goku for so many years, yet quickly realized the gap between them hadn't changed. Rather than go cry and scream about it like your post is implying he would, or get some random dues ex powerup from sheer rage like other characters do, Vegeta figured out a way to become stronger by using his brain. With his mere words, not even directed at Dabura, he was able to push the correct emotional buttons on the Demon King's psyche to give him the idea of making Vegeta a Majin, at which point Dabura retreated and relayed the story to Babidi who also had the correct emotional buttons pressed by Dabura who was just a proxy to agree with it.

But crying and screaming is exactly what he did. He threw a temper tantrum, Dabra noticed it, and they realized he would be useful. I admit I'd never really thought about it from the perspective of Vegeta manipulating them to get what he wanted, and that would be a pretty good example, except... Vegeta didn't play anybody! It doesn't matter if Vegeta was able to control himself (honestly, it makes him even less sympathetic in my eyes, but that's neither here nor there) because Babidi still got exactly what he wanted because of it. Vegeta still did exactly what Babidi wanted him to do, which did nothing but screw over the heroes and the planet and let the villains win. To be fair, Vegeta (being an asshole) didn't care about any of those things, so from that perspective, you could argue that him getting what he wanted is a "good strategy." But given his resultant regret and, well, death I have a hard time seeing that as anything but yet another Vegeta temper tantrum. He screamed and whined until someone caved and gave him his ice cream. He ate too much ice cream. He got a tummy ache. That's Vegeta in a nutshell.

(As an aside, the fact that Resurrection F makes the absurd claim that Vegeta's weakness is that he thinks too much is one of the many things that makes it impossible for me to relate to it.)

[ABED]

Gotta go with Gaffer Tape on this issue, other than Namek, Vegeta's not a great strategist. However, that doesn't stop him from being interesting.

If "I'll avoid people who are stronger than me until I get stronger than them"

That's actually a great strategy if you are up against overwhelming odds, the smart play is to not fight one on one, face to face. Vegeta is on Freeza's space ship in a vulnerable state, but once he is healed, not only does he get away, he is able to steal Freeza's DB's.

[Kamiccolo9]

Gotta go with Gaffer Tape on this issue, other than Namek, Vegeta's not a great strategist. However, that doesn't stop him from being interesting.

If "I'll avoid people who are stronger than me until I get stronger than them"

That's actually a great strategy if you are up against overwhelming odds, the smart play is to not fight one on one, face to face. Vegeta is on Freeza's space ship in a vulnerable state, but once he is healed, not only does he get away, he is able to steal Freeza's DB's.

It is a great strategy. It's also the obvious one. I'm not going to credit Vegeta as a brilliant strategist just because he did what anybody with half of a brain cell would reasonably do.

[ABED]

It is a great strategy. It's also the obvious one. I'm not going to credit Vegeta as a brilliant strategist just because he did what anybody with half of a brain cell would reasonably do.

Having a good strategy and being able to successful impliment it aren't the same thing. Anyone can come up with "stay away from guys that can kick my ass", but that doesn't guarentee they can successfully impliment it. Also, that is so vague as to be practically useless. Vegeta was able to steal the DB's right from under Freeza's nose, that deserves even a modicum of credit.

[DBZAOTA482]

He's a better strategist than Piccolo, I'll say that much...

[Kamiccolo9]

It is a great strategy. It's also the obvious one. I'm not going to credit Vegeta as a brilliant strategist just because he did what anybody with half of a brain cell would reasonably do.

Having a good strategy and being able to successful impliment it aren't the same thing. Anyone can come up with "stay away from guys that can kick my ass", but that doesn't guarentee they can successfully impliment it.

Exactly. Anyone could have come up with the strategy. His ability to implement it has no bearing on how obvious the strategy is.

[ABED]

To prove my point, take the real life example of Foreman vs. Ali - The Rumble in the Jungle. Ali knows he can't match Foreman's power. Trying to stand toe to toe with him is damn near suicide. So he comes up with the Rope a Dope. Foreman hits Ali with everything he's got while Ali uses the ropes to help keep him on his feet until Foreman tires himself out. That's a simple strategy that anyone should've been able to come up with right. Just let the big lug tire himself out and then take him down. Problem is, you have to take Foreman's punches. That's FAR easier said than done. If it hadn't worked, i don't think anyone would've said that was a brilliant strategy, we'd probably say it was foolish.

His ability to implement it has no bearing on how obvious the strategy is.

But the strategy you claim is so broad that it's basically nonsense. Stealing the DB's the way he did was the specific strategy. That was brilliant misdirection.

[nickzambuto]

I find Vegeta's mistakes to be greatly overstated by certain fans, with his accomplishments often ignored or forgotten about. When Dr. Gero had the power to crush Vegeta with ease, was mentally psyching him out with mere words and tricking him into running away in fear so that Vegeta could recover his strength not a brilliant ploy?

It was a good bluff, but I hesitate giving him credit for it because, as I said, he would never have needed to bluff #20 if he hadn't stupidly let himself get weakened in the first place. If he hadn't, he could have taken #20 right then and there. Either we assume Piccolo was correct, and Vegeta was testing to see if it was true (which was not needed), or Vegeta was simply being arrogant and wanted to prove getting his power sucked didn't mean anything. Either way, the point remains that he didn't make a mistake or get caught off guard. He purposely put himself in a position where he would have to gamble on being able to bluff #20. To me, that's not good strategy. That's him trying to cover up his own unnecessary blunder.

My favorite is on Babidi's spaceship, when Vegeta had been looking forward to his rematch with Goku for so many years, yet quickly realized the gap between them hadn't changed. Rather than go cry and scream about it like your post is implying he would, or get some random dues ex powerup from sheer rage like other characters do, Vegeta figured out a way to become stronger by using his brain. With his mere words, not even directed at Dabura, he was able to push the correct emotional buttons on the Demon King's psyche to give him the idea of making Vegeta a Majin, at which point Dabura retreated and relayed the story to Babidi who also had the correct emotional buttons pressed by Dabura who was just a proxy to agree with it.

But crying and screaming is exactly what he did. He threw a temper tantrum, Dabra noticed it, and they realized he would be useful. I admit I'd never really thought about it from the perspective of Vegeta manipulating them to get what he wanted, and that would be a pretty good example, except... Vegeta didn't play anybody! It doesn't matter if Vegeta was able to control himself (honestly, it makes him even less sympathetic in my eyes, but that's neither here nor there) because Babidi still got exactly what he wanted because of it. Vegeta still did exactly what Babidi wanted him to do, which did nothing but screw over the heroes and the planet and let the villains win. To be fair, Vegeta (being an asshole) didn't care about any of those things, so from that perspective, you could argue that him getting what he wanted is a "good strategy." But given his resultant regret and, well, death I have a hard time seeing that as anything but yet another Vegeta temper tantrum. He screamed and whined until someone caved and gave him his ice cream. He ate too much ice cream. He got a tummy ache. That's Vegeta in a nutshell.

(As an aside, the fact that Resurrection F makes the absurd claim that Vegeta's weakness is that he thinks too much is one of the many things that makes it impossible for me to relate to it.)

What makes you think that Vegeta purposely allowed his energy to be absorbed by 19? I'm looking at the manga right now, Vegeta was winning the fight and put 19 into a crater in the ground. 19 was unmoving and Vegeta settled on the ground in front of him, then 19 sprang up by surprise and immediately grabbed Vegeta. Vegeta didn't say "here I'm gonna stand still, I dare you to absorb my energy." There's no indication that it was Vegeta's choice, 19 simply surprised him fair and square. This goes along with Whis' claim that Vegeta thinks too much and is slow to react; after winning the fight he descended to meet 19, and instead of just making the next move, Vegeta waited too long and 19 was able to spring up and grab him. So you might criticize Vegeta for failing to stop 19 in time, but there is zero indication he actually wanted 19 to absorb his energy. It was just a mistake, and I don't think we should rag on Vegeta for it, nobody is perfect, nobody is untouchable. Even the best take a hit once in awhile. Vegeta has one weakness, he thinks too much instead of acting on reflex or in the moment. Should we call him stupid or a bad fighter for that? Absolutely not, it's just one weakness. Again, nobody is perfect. What's impressive is that even when Vegeta did find himself at a disadvantage, he was smart enough to think of a way out of it.

Clearly Vegeta was well aware of the fact that he did not have the situation under control, because the second Gero left, he abandoned the facade of arrogance and cackling and screamed for Krillin to throw him a Senzu Bean. But what's impressive is that in the moment of getting his energy absorbed, he betrayed no emotion to indicate to anybody that this was the case. He just continued smiling and being evil and arrogant, and apparently his act was so convincing, not only did he trick Gero, Piccolo, Krillin, and all the other characters, but he also tricked several members of the audience!

I mean the dude made a non-sentient android feel fear. That is beyond over the top. That is S-rank badass. That is SUPERHUMAN levels of psychological skill. It doesn't even make sense!

So the major point of contention seems to be that some people believe Vegeta WANTED 19 to absorb his energy, and afterwards was just like "oh shit I messed up with that decision." From my point of view, there's nothing indicating that to be the case, it was 19 who was quick and crafty enough to grab Vegeta fair and square while Vegeta took too long thinking. From that point on, the entire scene was a brilliant display of keeping calm and mental manipulation, in order to make do with a situation where Vegeta had a huge disadvantage. And it seems that his act was so convincing, even several fans believe he wanted 19 to absorb his energy.

So let's run down Vegeta's accomplishments in that scene:

• 1. Manipulated a fictional super-genius who possessed impossible levels of scientific intelligence.
  2. Instilled a sense of fear in a non-sentient android.
  3. Tricked the viewing audience into falling for his act.

Vegeta's psychological tactics are so effective that they break through the fourth wall and effect the viewer... Well damn.

Similar point of contention with the Babidi case. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that all Vegeta did was resist the mind control. You're saying that it wasn't his PLAN for Babidi to boost him, he was just whining and complaining and was genuinely surprised along with everybody else when Babidi took over his mind. But that is NOT the case. It's explained that Vegeta saw what Babidi was able to do for Spopovich, and so the instant he saw Goku powerup against Yakon, he planned for Babidi to do the same for him. That's why it's brilliant, he was manipulating everybody. You say that all Vegeta did was whine and scream, but you're missing the point!! Once again Vegeta's act was so convincing that it effected the viewer, I can't believe this! The whining and screaming was a PLOY in order to give Dabura the idea to tell Babidi to control him. Thats not Vegeta's actual personality, it was a trick!

[nickzambuto]

It is a great strategy. It's also the obvious one. I'm not going to credit Vegeta as a brilliant strategist just because he did what anybody with half of a brain cell would reasonably do.

Having a good strategy and being able to successful impliment it aren't the same thing. Anyone can come up with "stay away from guys that can kick my ass", but that doesn't guarentee they can successfully impliment it.

Exactly. Anyone could have come up with the strategy. His ability to implement it has no bearing on how obvious the strategy is.

Give Vegeta more credit than that, the description of his plan you are providing is extremely vague. There was a lot more to it than that. Remember that Vegeta was completely alone, doing everything by himself in a massive four-way struggle for the Dragon Balls. He was up against:

• 1. The entire army of Freeza.
  2. All of planet Namek with its warriors and gurus.
  3. The Dragon Team.

The Dragon Team is already a severe underdog in this scenario, and you would think that, being the heroes, they'll come out on top. But no, Vegeta, a villain, is even MORE of an underdog, and it is HE who comes out on top! Had Guru not randomly died, Vegeta would have gotten his immortality. His strategies were perfect, everything worked out -- he WON. The fact that Guru randomly died should not make us say Vegeta failed, because that is a complete wildcard factor that nothing could have prevented.

You're really underselling Vegeta's strategies of "don't fight the strong guys." I mean yeah it sounds simple when you write it like that, but there was much more to it.

Vegeta arrives on Namek. He readily realizes and accepts that he does not stand a chance against Freeza and his whole army alone. He keeps his power level suppressed, baiting Cui, Dodoria, and Zarbon to each confront him one at a time, each believing themselves to be stronger, only for Vegeta to reveal just a little bit more of his strength each time and defeat them. If he powered up to max right away they would come in a group, and Vegeta could not beat a group. But Vegeta COULD beat them one at a time, and he was smart enough to do just that.

Take a look at this scene and tell me Vegeta isn't a strategic genius.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boty7EqTLyA

Let's break it down:

• 1. Vegeta awakens in the middle of Freeza's ship, in the middle of enemy territory so to speak, with no equipment or allies or advantages at all. Only his brain.
  2. What are Vegeta's options? Sneak through and escape the old fashioned way? If even one soldier detected him, Freeza would be drawn right to his location. So, Vegeta decided, might as well use the inevitable to his advantage. He created a huge explosion in the healing room and Freeza and Zarbon were drawn straight towards it, but since he also blew a hole through the ceiling, he tricked them into thinking he escaped and investigating outside while he continued through the ship.
  3. In reality Vegeta COULD have just flown through the hole and ran away, but that wasn't good enough for such a cunning strategist. He uses super speed to reach Freeza's chambers, where he correctly assumed the Dragon Balls to be.
  4. Vegeta decides that he can't carry all of them at once and just walk out the door, once again his only option is to blow a hole. So, if he's going to draw attention again, why not also destroy Freeza's ship just for the hell of it? Hehe.
  5. Vegeta then throws all the Dragon Balls miles away, and rather than blast off at full speed and be totally visible, he makes a subtle exfiltration through the ocean, where nobody expects to look.

Vegeta turned a terrible situation into an incredibly beneficial one. That's the definition of a good strategist. He was in the middle of enemy territory, and rather than just escape, he even steals the Dragon Balls. And rather than just steal the Dragon Balls, he also destroys Freeza's ship. And rather than just destroy Freeza's ship, he also uses the situation to his advantage further later on, by killing Zarbon once he is separated from Freeza.

Vegeta also stole a Dragon Ball from a weak Namekian village and hid it underwater, reasoning that Freeza couldn't make a wish so long as he was missing at least one ball. And he pretended to aid Goku against the Ginyu Force while Krillin and Gohan went to retrieve the Dragon Balls, only to abandon Goku, hoping his two enemies would kill each other, while he focused on the weak Krillin and Gohan and got their Dragon Balls.

These are all strategics that Vegeta was relying on throughout the course of an arc. Constantly turning a bad situation into a good one. He's probably the only character in the series who can consistently turn the tables and take an advantage on an opponent, even when outmatched in power.

[Gaffer Tape]

What makes you think that Vegeta purposely allowed his energy to be absorbed by 19?

Because Piccolo says he did. And since this was Piccolo expositing to the others what was going on (and, for some reason, classified by Piccolo as "fighting genius") I find it hard to believe Toriyama wrote it to discredit him. You can argue that Piccolo was just mistaken somehow, but there's no reason for Toriyama to have written it otherwise, and there's no attempt in the story to contradict this assessment.

3. Tricked the viewing audience into falling for his act. Vegeta's psychological tactics are so effective that they break through the fourth wall and effect the viewer... Well damn.

Well, it's what Toriyama wanted us to believe, so you can't blame us for coming to that conclusion. Granted, he wanted us to believe it was "fighting genius" as well, so you have me there... But then again, that rather puts the ball in your court. Your argument for Vegeta being a great strategist is that he didn't do that on purpose but rather quickly handled a bad situation. But if we take Toriyama at his word, what does that do to your position? Can he still be a master strategist AND have let himself be drained on purpose?

Similar point of contention with the Babidi case. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that all Vegeta did was resist the mind control. You're saying that it wasn't his PLAN for Babidi to boost him, he was just whining and complaining and was genuinely surprised along with everybody else when Babidi took over his mind. But that is NOT the case. It's explained that Vegeta saw what Babidi was able to do for Spopovich, and so the instant he saw Goku powerup against Yakon, he planned for Babidi to do the same for him. That's why it's brilliant, he was manipulating everybody. You say that all Vegeta did was whine and scream, but you're missing the point!! Once again Vegeta's act was so convincing that it effected the viewer, I can't believe this! The whining and screaming was a PLOY in order to give Dabura the idea to tell Babidi to control him.

No, I never said it was a surprise. Vegeta himself later says he wanted it. But I don't see any indication that his whining and screaming was anything but genuine. Or are you saying that he wasn't truly enraged that he was wasting time watching Gohan struggle with some stupid henchmen instead of fighting Goku? Because that's his entire motivation for letting himself be possessed in the first place. You can't really have it both ways in this case. Either he was faking whining and screaming in which case he wasn't all that upset, and he had no reason to go down that path in the first place. Or he was sincere in his whining and screaming in which case... well, he could actually be hoping they'd notice his genuine anger, and that would be plausible, so I'm not sure why you're insisting it's not real. But you seem to be missing my point, which is, his "strategy" to gain power for himself and doom the world did nothing but give the bad guys exactly what they wanted and resulted in his death and regret for his actions. So, yeah... good job at manipulating.

Thats not Vegeta's actual personality, it was a trick!

Vegeta losing his temper is one of his key personality traits. He loses it when Goku beats up on him. He loses it when Gohan steals his Dragon Ball. He loses it when Gohan, Kuririn, and Dende take his wishes out from under him. He loses it when Cell surpasses him. He loses it when Cell kills Trunks. The guy has anger issues. So is it more likely that he once again lost his temper, or is it more likely that he was just faking it this time when he had a "legitimate" reason. Or are you claiming that Vegeta's actual personality in general is not to be angry, and that all those examples are just a ploy to manipulate someone?

[nickzambuto]

What makes you think that Vegeta purposely allowed his energy to be absorbed by 19?

Because Piccolo says he did. And since this was Piccolo expositing to the others what was going on (and, for some reason, classified by Piccolo as "fighting genius") I find it hard to believe Toriyama wrote it to discredit him. You can argue that Piccolo was just mistaken somehow, but there's no reason for Toriyama to have written it otherwise, and there's no attempt in the story to contradict this assessment.

3. Tricked the viewing audience into falling for his act. Vegeta's psychological tactics are so effective that they break through the fourth wall and effect the viewer... Well damn.

Well, it's what Toriyama wanted us to believe, so you can't blame us for coming to that conclusion. Granted, he wanted us to believe it was "fighting genius" as well, so you have me there... But then again, that rather puts the ball in your court. Your argument for Vegeta being a great strategist is that he didn't do that on purpose but rather quickly handled a bad situation. But if we take Toriyama at his word, what does that do to your position? Can he still be a master strategist AND have let himself be drained on purpose?

Similar point of contention with the Babidi case. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that all Vegeta did was resist the mind control. You're saying that it wasn't his PLAN for Babidi to boost him, he was just whining and complaining and was genuinely surprised along with everybody else when Babidi took over his mind. But that is NOT the case. It's explained that Vegeta saw what Babidi was able to do for Spopovich, and so the instant he saw Goku powerup against Yakon, he planned for Babidi to do the same for him. That's why it's brilliant, he was manipulating everybody. You say that all Vegeta did was whine and scream, but you're missing the point!! Once again Vegeta's act was so convincing that it effected the viewer, I can't believe this! The whining and screaming was a PLOY in order to give Dabura the idea to tell Babidi to control him. Thats not Vegeta's actual personality, it was a trick!

No, I never said it was a surprise. Vegeta himself later says he wanted it. But I don't see any indication that his whining and screaming was anything but genuine. Or are you saying that he wasn't truly enraged that he was wasting time watching Gohan struggle with some stupid henchmen instead of fighting Goku? Because that's his entire motivation for letting himself be possessed in the first place. You can't really have it both ways in this case. Either he was faking whining and screaming in which case he wasn't all that upset, and he had no reason to go down that path in the first place. Or he was sincere in his whining and screaming in which case... well, he could actually be hoping they'd notice his genuine anger, and that would be plausible, so I'm not sure why you're insisting it's not real. But you seem to be missing my point, which is, his "strategy" to gain power for himself and doom the world did nothing but give the bad guys exactly what they wanted and resulted in his death and regret for his actions. So, yeah... good job at manipulating.

Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhrrrgghh I see now. Okay you're right, you got me there. I was only looking at Vegeta's fight with 19, I just checked Piccolo's exposition, and you're right, he did confirm that Vegeta wanted his energy to be absorbed.

However I think context is important. Piccolo said that Vegeta wanted to confirm whether the android's can drain ki or not - this just means that Vegeta was already planning ahead for Gero during his fight with 19. Gero was stronger than 19, so Vegeta wanted to go against him 100% prepared. This just implies that Vegeta already had the whole ruse planned out before even finishing his fight with 19, like,

• Step 1: Defeat weak android.
  Step 2: Confirm whether or not androids can indeed drain energy.
  Step 3: Manipulate strong android into running away and regain energy.
  Step 4: Pursue strong android at full strength and while fully prepared.

So in this context, I would classify Vegeta's decision to test Android 19's energy absorbing capabilities as more of a gamble, than stupidity. Obviously he couldn't know for certain whether Gero would fall for his ruse and run away, but as a strategist, Vegeta decided the risk would be worth the future safety. Strategy always involves risk, Vegeta took a gamble, and the fact that he succeeded proves his intelligence.

Think of it from Vegeta's perspective. WE know that Android 19 can absorb energy, Android 20 is stronger, and Vegeta was way stronger than them both. But in Vegeta's case, he was going up against unknown enemies. He wanted to confirm what he was up against before diving straight in recklessly. So in reality, you are calling Vegeta reckless for letting 19 absorb his energy and leave himself open to Gero, but since he had already concocted a ploy to make Gero run away and regain his energy, he was actually being the opposite of reckless. Instead of rushing the battlefield and killing everything blam blam boom destroy prince of saiyans no one can stop me, Vegeta knew he was up against two unknowns and opted to test them first. That is smart. And it all ties back into Vegeta's weakness that Whis brought up; he thinks too much. Again, you and I are already privy to all this information in hindsight, but Vegeta was not. WE know that in reality, Vegeta actually could have just attacked both androids and destroyed them then and there. But Vegeta did not know this, he was up against unknowns, so he concocted this whole elaborate strategy to test what he was up against, and then make further plans from there. Ironically if he just acted recklessly and on impulse like Goku, things would have worked out. But alas, Vegeta is too smart for his own good.

As for Babidi, I'm afraid I don't really follow you on this one. Yes Vegeta was genuinely upset Goku had surpassed him, but he didn't let his rage cloud his mind or anything. He thought, reasonably and rationally, and reached the conclusion that Babidi can give him the power he needs. So during Gohan's fight with Dabura, Vegeta very subtly pushed the correct emotional buttons on Dabura to instill in him the idea of making Vegeta a Majin, without anybody even realizing Vegeta was just using everyone. The whining and boasting was all a ploy; maybe it was also how Vegeta genuinely felt, but that's besides the point. He manipulated Babidi into empowering him, only to turn back around and deny Babidi's control. So Vegeta got out of the situation with a huge powerup for free, without having to pay anything.

It doesn't matter if the situation coincidentally worked out in Babidi's favor in the end, because Vegeta's scheme ended right then and there. He got what he wanted; the power to match Goku without having to pay a price. Vegeta manipulated everybody. Yeah he doomed the world and helped the bad guys and died... so what? Vegeta didn't care about that, his aim was something completely separate. He didn't care about stopping Babidi, he fulfilled his own goals.

Vegeta losing his temper is one of his key personality traits. He loses it when Goku beats up on him. He loses it when Gohan steals his Dragon Ball. He loses it when Gohan, Kuririn, and Dende take his wishes out from under him. He loses it when Cell surpasses him. He loses it when Cell kills Trunks. The guy has anger issues. So is it more likely that he once again lost his temper, or is it more likely that he was just faking it this time when he had a "legitimate" reason. Or are you claiming that Vegeta's actual personality in general is not to be angry, and that all those examples are just a ploy to manipulate someone?

Some of them were, actually. Being angry and being strategic are not mutually exclusive, Vegeta can be both at the same time.

• 1. When Goku overpowered Vegeta, most Dragon Ball characters would be helpless. At a power disadvantage, there's nothing to do. Not Vegeta though. By threatening the Earth, he forced Goku into taking his strongest blast head-on when Goku was more than capable of avoiding it and continuing to attack Vegeta, and even though Vegeta was at a power disadvantage, said blast still stronger than Goku, which goes to show how skilled Vegeta is since his ki blasts are some of the best. Better than Krillin and Piccolo's and as good as Tenshinhan's.
  2. Vegeta got angry when Gohan, Krillin, and Dende summoned Porunga, so what? He didn't lose his cool and mess anything up; he stormed out there and demanded that they make him immortal or he will kill them. And they complied. If Guru hadn't died, Vegeta would have gotten his wish.
  3. Vegeta got angry when Cell surpassed him, again so what? He still went on to use Cell's own arrogance against him and manipulate him into taking the Final Flash. Just like with Goku, Vegeta successfully defeated a character of vastly superior power through strategy (manipulating Cell) and skill (Final Flash is a powerful technique). This proves that it takes more than a power advantage to beat Vegeta, you also need hax like regeneration on top of that. Not many other characters can say the same thing, most of the time even a little bit less power equals automatic loss.

So why does Vegeta getting angry prove he isn't a strategic genius who sometimes screws up because he spends too much time thinking instead of acting?

[Captain Sauza]

For the most part, the DBZ movie villains are better than the villains in the manga that that they were based off of.

Ex: Lord Slug > King Piccolo, Cooler > Freeza, Cooler's Squad > Ginyu Force, Janemba > Buu

etc.