Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Yuji]

Manga Goku never absorbed SSG's essence into his base or Super Saiyan forms so by the time U6 comes around he's only marginally stronger than his Boo arc self.

Even if you believe the God essence absorption eventually got retconned in the anime, or believe in the two base theory, the anime version can amp himself up to 10/20x via Kaioken and has also had multiple more training arcs and near-death powerups.

Base Goku is literally shown to be stronger than the Kaioshins in the manga.

I don't see what that contradicts in my statement? Base Goku in the ToP arc is stronger than the Kaioshins after he has gone through multiple training arcs since BoG, especially the Black arc training arc which multiplied his power immensely (Goku and Vegeta went from getting destroyed by SS1 Black in their SSB forms to defeating his SSR form). Outside of the Freeza line from BoG, you could already make the argument the base Saiyans were stronger than Shin back in the Boo arc to begin with, which was a very predominant sentiment in the fanbase before the modern stuff.

A far cry from the anime version being able to defeat SS3 Gotenks in base with zero difficulty, toying with a stronger Mr. Boo and presumably being as strong as his SSG self from BoG.

[Cipher]

I don't see what that contradicts in my statement? Base Goku in the ToP arc is stronger than the Kaioshins after he has gone through multiple training arcs since BoG, especially the Black arc training arc which multiplied his power immensely (Goku and Vegeta went from getting destroyed by SS1 Black in their SSB forms to defeating his SSR form). Outside of the Freeza line from BoG, you could already make the argument the base Saiyans were stronger than Shin back in the Boo arc to begin with, which was a very predominant sentiment in the fanbase before the modern stuff.

A far cry from the anime version being able to defeat SS3 Gotenks in base with zero difficulty, toying with a stronger Mr. Boo and presumably being as strong as his SSG self from BoG.

Or, there’s the fact that the only thing this entire line of conversation hinges on is Goku remaining standing while the Kaioshin fall in front of Ramoosh’s roar, which is fairly precarious and reads like a comedy beat rather than a strength-establishment one. Given Whis only references “levels” in the vaguest way, you might as well assume that Goku just has a more developed fighting spirit/mentality than the non-combat-oriented Kaioshin do (as I tend to).

Incidentally, if it is meant to imply Goku is stronger, the only places for that to have happened would be between BoG and “F,” while first training with Beerus and Whis, or during the three years spent in the Room of Spirit and Time prior to the Universe 6 tournament. Goku doesn’t go through any non-transformation based strength increases during or after the events of the Trunks arc (as he feels he gets rusty in between that and the ToP, if anything).

Now, it’s certainly possible he does so at one of those points, but given that Trunks (compared to SS2 Cell Games Gohan) keeps pace with him in equivalent forms during the beginning of his arc, I tend to view that idea with some scrutiny too. The first time we know Goku to have made any major leaps independent of new transformations in Super is while training with Merus. I can definitely see the argument that if he did there, he should have in his first months of training with Whis as well, but … see Trunks thing above, and in general our just never having any reference to that, with all his early Super increases being focused around the use of God and Blue.

I know I’m being a minimalist here, but my stance, as always, leans more toward, “If the series isn’t explicit about a power-up, it didn’t happen.”

[Yuji]

I don't see what that contradicts in my statement? Base Goku in the ToP arc is stronger than the Kaioshins after he has gone through multiple training arcs since BoG, especially the Black arc training arc which multiplied his power immensely (Goku and Vegeta went from getting destroyed by SS1 Black in their SSB forms to defeating his SSR form). Outside of the Freeza line from BoG, you could already make the argument the base Saiyans were stronger than Shin back in the Boo arc to begin with, which was a very predominant sentiment in the fanbase before the modern stuff.

A far cry from the anime version being able to defeat SS3 Gotenks in base with zero difficulty, toying with a stronger Mr. Boo and presumably being as strong as his SSG self from BoG.

Or, there’s the fact that the only thing this entire line of conversation hinges on is Goku remaining standing while the Kaioshin fall in front of Ramoosh’s roar, which is fairly precarious and reads like a comedy beat rather than a strength-establishment one. Given Whis only references “levels” in the vaguest way, you might as well assume that Goku just has a more developed fighting spirit/mentality than the non-combat-oriented Kaioshin do (as I tend to).

Incidentally, if it is meant to imply Goku is stronger, the only places for that to have happened would be between BoG and “F,” while first training with Beerus and Whis, or during the three years spent in the Room of Spirit and Time prior to the Universe 6 tournament. Goku doesn’t go through any non-transformation based strength increases during or after the events of the Trunks arc (as he feels he gets rusty in between that and the ToP, if anything).

Now, it’s certainly possible he does so at one of those points, but given that Trunks (compared to SS2 Cell Games Gohan) keeps pace with him in equivalent forms during the beginning of his arc, I tend to view that idea with some scrutiny too. The first time we know Goku to have made any major leaps independent of new transformations in Super is while training with Merus. I can definitely see the argument that if he did there, he should have in his first months of training with Whis as well, but … see Trunks thing above, and in general our just never having any reference to that, with all his early Super increases being focused around the use of God and Blue.

I know I’m being a minimalist here, but my stance, as always, leans more toward, “If the series isn’t explicit about a power up, it didn’t happen.”

I agree with all of this, but with that being said, the manga version of the Zamasu arc does a very poor job with its scaling. The obvious implication is that Goku shouldn't have got stronger in the Zamasu arc as he was learning the Mafuba, and neither did Vegeta as he was learning how to optimize form-switching more-so than increasing his overall strength like in the Moro arc. So effectively they should be just as strong when they return for round 2 as they were in their initial encounter with Black, yet they've gone from being defeated by Super Saiyan after eating a Senzu and recovering to full, to defeating Super Saiyan Rosé after the training period. Even with the manga's more measured approach to the God form multipliers, that's a ridiculous jump and one I attribute to Toyotarou's oversight.

And of course we also have the issue of a supposedly SS3 Goku tier Trunks being hunted down by Base/SS Black whom is later defeated by SS2 Vegeta. To wave this way we have to assume that Vegeta's rage boost in BoG was permanent which I guess isn't entirely unbelievable since Super has made it a point to show that form multipliers are fluid and can be improved, but it's also never directly stated Vegeta kept this power-up and this is the only time we necessarily have to make that inference.

So while I agree with your assessment that Goku and Vegeta don't gain any significant power ups in their base and gold forms since the Boo arc until the Moro arc, I can't judge someone for thinking the opposite given how poorly the Black fight is conveyed.

The absence of F in the story also throws a wrench into things as we have no idea how Freeza's forms later compare to the Saiyans', but that's a separate issue.

[Koitsukai]

I don't see what that contradicts in my statement? Base Goku in the ToP arc is stronger than the Kaioshins after he has gone through multiple training arcs since BoG, especially the Black arc training arc which multiplied his power immensely (Goku and Vegeta went from getting destroyed by SS1 Black in their SSB forms to defeating his SSR form). Outside of the Freeza line from BoG, you could already make the argument the base Saiyans were stronger than Shin back in the Boo arc to begin with, which was a very predominant sentiment in the fanbase before the modern stuff.

A far cry from the anime version being able to defeat SS3 Gotenks in base with zero difficulty, toying with a stronger Mr. Boo and presumably being as strong as his SSG self from BoG.

Or, there’s the fact that the only thing this entire line of conversation hinges on is Goku remaining standing while the Kaioshin fall in front of Ramoosh’s roar, which is fairly precarious and reads like a comedy beat rather than a strength-establishment one. Given Whis only references “levels” in the vaguest way, you might as well assume that Goku just has a more developed fighting spirit/mentality than the non-combat-oriented Kaioshin do (as I tend to).

Incidentally, if it is meant to imply Goku is stronger, the only places for that to have happened would be between BoG and “F,” while first training with Beerus and Whis, or during the three years spent in the Room of Spirit and Time prior to the Universe 6 tournament. Goku doesn’t go through any non-transformation based strength increases during or after the events of the Trunks arc (as he feels he gets rusty in between that and the ToP, if anything).

Now, it’s certainly possible he does so at one of those points, but given that Trunks (compared to SS2 Cell Games Gohan) keeps pace with him in equivalent forms during the beginning of his arc, I tend to view that idea with some scrutiny too. The first time we know Goku to have made any major leaps independent of new transformations in Super is while training with Merus. I can definitely see the argument that if he did there, he should have in his first months of training with Whis as well, but … see Trunks thing above, and in general our just never having any reference to that, with all his early Super increases being focused around the use of God and Blue.

I know I’m being a minimalist here, but my stance, as always, leans more toward, “If the series isn’t explicit about a power-up, it didn’t happen.”

To add to the matter, I don't think surpassing Shin is a big deal to begin with.
What do we know about him anyway? he can oneshot Freeza, big deal, that's literally Future Trunks' introduction.
Piccolo refused to fight him but is that a power-scaling feat? we know now Piccolo cannot feel god ki, so he had no idea of the scope of Shin's power.
Not to mention the whole point of that scene and its subsequent revelation is about WHO Shin is, not how strong he is, after all Shin being out of reach or whatever is only in terms of rank, not of power. To me Piccolo, basically, withdrew because of Kami not wanting to fight a higher deity, given that he isn't equipped to read Shin. And I'm not even talking about Piccolo not being the type of guy that backs down due to being outclassed.

Post-BoG, it's pretty much a given base Goku is on Namek SS level at least, and with some passive growth, by the ToP or sooner, Shin being left behind makes sense to me. Shin's placement is vague enough for it to not be an issue for me.

[ZombieVito]

I don't see what that contradicts in my statement? Base Goku in the ToP arc is stronger than the Kaioshins after he has gone through multiple training arcs since BoG, especially the Black arc training arc which multiplied his power immensely (Goku and Vegeta went from getting destroyed by SS1 Black in their SSB forms to defeating his SSR form). Outside of the Freeza line from BoG, you could already make the argument the base Saiyans were stronger than Shin back in the Boo arc to begin with, which was a very predominant sentiment in the fanbase before the modern stuff.

A far cry from the anime version being able to defeat SS3 Gotenks in base with zero difficulty, toying with a stronger Mr. Boo and presumably being as strong as his SSG self from BoG.

Or, there’s the fact that the only thing this entire line of conversation hinges on is Goku remaining standing while the Kaioshin fall in front of Ramoosh’s roar, which is fairly precarious and reads like a comedy beat rather than a strength-establishment one. Given Whis only references “levels” in the vaguest way, you might as well assume that Goku just has a more developed fighting spirit/mentality than the non-combat-oriented Kaioshin do (as I tend to).

Incidentally, if it is meant to imply Goku is stronger, the only places for that to have happened would be between BoG and “F,” while first training with Beerus and Whis, or during the three years spent in the Room of Spirit and Time prior to the Universe 6 tournament. Goku doesn’t go through any non-transformation based strength increases during or after the events of the Trunks arc (as he feels he gets rusty in between that and the ToP, if anything).

Now, it’s certainly possible he does so at one of those points, but given that Trunks (compared to SS2 Cell Games Gohan) keeps pace with him in equivalent forms during the beginning of his arc, I tend to view that idea with some scrutiny too. The first time we know Goku to have made any major leaps independent of new transformations in Super is while training with Merus. I can definitely see the argument that if he did there, he should have in his first months of training with Whis as well, but … see Trunks thing above, and in general our just never having any reference to that, with all his early Super increases being focused around the use of God and Blue.

I know I’m being a minimalist here, but my stance, as always, leans more toward, “If the series isn’t explicit about a power-up, it didn’t happen.”

To add to the matter, I don't think surpassing Shin is a big deal to begin with.
What do we know about him anyway? he can oneshot Freeza, big deal, that's literally Future Trunks' introduction.
Piccolo refused to fight him but is that a power-scaling feat? we know now Piccolo cannot feel god ki, so he had no idea of the scope of Shin's power.
Not to mention the whole point of that scene and its subsequent revelation is about WHO Shin is, not how strong he is, after all Shin being out of reach or whatever is only in terms of rank, not of power. To me Piccolo, basically, withdrew because of Kami not wanting to fight a higher deity, given that he isn't equipped to read Shin. And I'm not even talking about Piccolo not being the type of guy that backs down due to being outclassed.

Post-BoG, it's pretty much a given base Goku is on Namek SS level at least, and with some passive growth, by the ToP or sooner, Shin being left behind makes sense to me. Shin's placement is vague enough for it to not be an issue for me.

Are we still doing this with Shin vs Piccolo?

Shin is stronger. It's flat out said by Piccolo and reconfirmed in guidebooks.

[Yuji]

The base Saiyans in the Boo arc being stronger than Shin and Piccolo had been a debate long before the modern revival. Due to BoG, I think the consensus shifted to the base Saiyans being weaker than Freeza but before then, most fans would argue they were already stronger than Shin and Piccolo.

Regardless, I don't think this matters at all. The context of the discussion is who's stronger between manga and anime Goku. Whether manga Goku is below Namek Freeza, already above Shin before the ToP, or gets stronger than Shin by the ToP is irrelevant. The anime version can one shot SS3 Gotenks and is implied to be as strong as his SSG self from BoG. There's no implication manga Goku makes up that difference. Shin is the only contestable variable.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I tried going with Goku not being much stronger than he was in the Boo Saga for a while, but I don't think there's any way around the Kaioshin stuff. The line about Trunks and Gohan ends up being overanalyzed: So Trunks is strictly only just stronger than Gohan? No room for him being "greatly" above? Sure I can see him below Majin Boo, but we're going to make Goku and Vegeta completely stagnate between the Boo Saga and the Moro Saga like this.

I used to be pretty heavy on Base Saiyans > Kaioshin, but I don't think there's any going around Beerus' line, unless you bring Anime Beerus saying SSJ Goku was barely Freeza to discredit him (and even that was a fansub mistake, I think). Even the Boo Saga feels more like awkward writting that power implications: Shin is just worried about the Base Saiyans because they wanted to fight on their own, and Babidi and Dabra are basing their expectations of the Saiyans on what they saw on Earth 300 years ago. The only thing with merit is Vegeta saying he doesn't need SSJ to be the strongest, and between Vegeta's word and Beerus...

Not to mention, cocky talk is a obligatory pre-tournament trope. Also a line people people read too much. Would Vegeta of all people say "No, let me transform! I need it so 18 won't kick my ass again"? Come on.

[Hugo Boss]

I think Ramoosh’s roar is a pretty clever way to convey the power hierarchy between the gods. Kaioshins faint, Gods of Destruction and the likes paralyze and Angels are unaffected. I think people read way too much into what form Goku is using since he and Toppo were obviously not using power comparable to Gods of Destruction at that moment and still were as much affected as them.

[Mr Baggins]

Whis does specifically mention that even the Gods of Destruction should just barely be standing after hearing Rumsshi's roar, yet Goku seemed no more affected than them and recovered about as quickly as they did. I think there's enough room to interpret Toyotaro taking Goku's strongest level/form into account there, not necessarily just his base.

Besides, as already mentioned, the implications about Shin's power have been somewhat inconsistent from the jump. I'll have to agree with most of the others here that base Goku doesn't really make significant leaps until partway through Moro.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

We really need some sort of DBS manga depiction of its events of RoF, because right now that one area is throwing everything off and making it difficult to tell exactly where everyone once stood.

Say what you want about the movie and anime arc in terms of their quality, but both made fairly clear how everyone matched up, something that was kept mostly consistent in terms of general rankings and the progression afterwards in the anime at least.

[Mr Baggins]

On to the question that was originally asked:

I can't speak for anime Goku given that the TV series is horribly inconsistent and almost every episode is all over the place, not to mention the obvious god retcon. Maybe Rage UI Goku and Limit Breaker Jiren beat their manga/movie versions because THEIR POWER IS MAXIMUM!!!!! or whatever.

The manga is not without its own occasional hiccups, like any longform serialization, but at least has a general scale that you can follow pretty easily. For the comic, I'd say Goku and Vegeta are currently at the point where they can individually tango with just about anyone who isn't Gohan, Freeza, and possibly a berserk Broly, but they still have very specific limitations.

I remember a scene in the anime where the remaining GoDs stood up quietly out of awe and respect, so I guess Hulked Out TV UI Goku takes it. Who knows? It's hard to compare continuities in this regard because I don't think the writers give it any thought.

[Yuji]

We really need some sort of DBS manga depiction of its events of RoF, because right now that one area is throwing everything off and making it difficult to tell exactly where everyone once stood.

Say what you want about the movie and anime arc in terms of their quality, but both made fairly clear how everyone matched up, something that was kept mostly consistent in terms of general rankings and the progression afterwards in the anime at least.

I disagree. The only thing that F would help clarify is how strong Freeza is in his forms versus the Saiyan forms and we get a decent enough idea of it during the ToP in his fight with the U6 Saiyans.

Outside of that, the manga makes it clear Goku never absorbed the God essence like in the anime so he's only somewhat stronger than he was in the Boo arc. How strong he is compared to other characters depends on how strong you think he was in the Boo arc to begin with, and how strong you think he got through the arcs in Super.

[Yuji]

Who's the weakest character that could erase Infinite Zamasu? Both the anime and manga versions.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Who's the weakest character that could erase Infinite Zamasu? Both the anime and manga versions.

In the manga, the Hakai technique used by Gods of Destruction is insufficient against immortals, and Infinite Zamasu is way more immortal than normal.

In the anime, I imagine the same applies, to the extent of even Angels not being sufficient.

[Koitsukai]

If hakai can't do it, nothing but Zeno can. We don't know enough about Angels, they might have something in between hakai and Zeno's erasure, so it's pointless to mention them, specially when they keep on getting new abilities as the show progresses.

We also have no idea if erasing the universe would work(did Zeno erase U7 or the entire multiverse?), if it does then probably Jiren-level characters can destroy it.

[ZombieVito]

Who's the weakest character that could erase Infinite Zamasu? Both the anime and manga versions.

Zeno.

[Yuji]

I brought this up in another thread, but I want to challenge the notion that BoG SSG > Boo arc Vegetto.

We assumed this was the case but later showings of SSG have clarified that the form isn't as strong as it once appeared. SSG is definitely a step up from 3, I'd wager about a 10x increase as both the manga and anime repeatedly showcase it to be a different realm from 3, but certainly not the hundreds of thousands or even million time multiplier that was previously thought.

Firstly, Goku compares Vegetto to Beerus. No comparison has been made to SSG. We know Zamasu arc Blue Vegetto would probably lose to Beerus, so let alone Super Vegetto or even the hypothetical SS3 Vegetto from the Boo arc. Folks argue that because Goku felt "confident" fighting Beerus in BoG, this means he's stronger at least than Super Vegetto. SSG was his only option, so it's not like it's a definitive statement on the two characters. It's a vague enough statement that there's enough wiggle room for multiple interpretations.

The nail in the coffin for me is the Broly movie. We saw that Super Saiyan Gogeta was stronger than its Blue counterparts. One could argue even base Gogeta was, but let's stick with Super Saiyan. Common sense dictates that fusions get stronger the stronger the fusees are, of course, but this is the best point of comparison we have. If the scaling translates, then a hypothetical Super Vegetto from BoG would be stronger not only than SSG but a hypothetical BoG Blue Goku too.

Whether SSG Goku beats Super Vegetto or not depends on how strong you think the difference between Boo arc and BoG Goku is. He either got only slightly stronger, or dozens of times stronger depending on your perspective. I'd like to think he got a few times stronger as he probably surpassed Gohan and Gotenks by this point, so the difference between SSG and Boo arc Super Vegetto would be pretty small for me. I would be comfortable saying they're about equal just so the line can still make sense even with the other interpretations. Super Vegetto is a Z character but he's the apex Z character. I have no issue placing him among the initial Super transformations and antagonists as a formidable opponent, instead of the fodder we initially thought he was when BoG first dropped.

Finally, and this argument isn't entirely serious and more just so as a curious note, Heroes seems to push the idea that SS4 is equal to Blue. As we know from the Perfect Files, Super Vegetto was also mentioned there as superior to SS4 Goku. If you want to take Heroes at face value, then this would put Super Vegetto in the realm of the God forms as expected.

[Miracles]

From the anime supervisor for Battle of Gods...

Tadayaoshi Yamamuro: "I handled the roughs for Super Saiyan God. It was “a being that surpasses everything”

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -yamamuro/

[Yuji]

From the anime supervisor for Battle of Gods...

Tadayaoshi Yamamuro: "I handled the roughs for Super Saiyan God. It was “a being that surpasses everything”

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -yamamuro/

What does that mean? Clearly didn't surpass Beerus or Whis in its own film.

And again, the might of SSG is long gone. It's no longer treated as this outstanding transformation as before. It's another number.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Problem is, this is all assuming that the difference between Vegito and SSG is exactly the same now as it was back then.

Super Saiyan Vegito was absolutely stronger than Gohan-Buu, but he was stronger as a Super Saiyan. Meanwhile, the likes of Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, etc., have surpassed the margin of Majin Buu in their normal base forms AND learned all manner of new forms and unlocked greater wells of potential than ever before, with the SSG form in particular not showing itself to be that much stronger than its inception.

These characters have already reached the heights that Vegito used to occupy in equivalent forms, AND they can transform into forms beyond SS3 on top of this power.

Adding all of that, and then creating Fusions from it that merges and amplifies the potential of the fused fighters? It's quite obvious why Vegito and Gogeta nowadays are so much stronger, because the fusees have gotten so much stronger and unlocked greater power for their Fusions to access.