Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kakashi]

Where do you come up with these crazy numbers?

Manga

[Zantetsuken]

Where do you come up with these crazy numbers?

Manga

Yeah, I don't recall the numbers your using being listed there - why don't you prove me wrong.

[Kakashi]

Where do you come up with these crazy numbers?

Manga

Yeah, I don't recall the numbers your using being listed there - why don't you prove me wrong.

The implications put them high

[Zantetsuken]

The implications put them high

I don't think so.

[RandomGuy96]

So. This quote:

Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth! If he had come back together as one, he might not have had to die…”

Discuss. This seems to imply merging with Kami makes Piccolo twice as strong. While this works for the android arc and arguably Namek arc, it's really questionable when it comes to anything before that. Yet the statement does seem to outright say that he only halved his power...

Well that one doesn't work with Gohan's statement. Unless Cold is suppressed too.

Just to revisit this, I think that Cold and Freeza were suppressed to something like 10% and 5% of their respective full powers on the way to Earth; Freeza stopped suppressing himself when he lashed out at Trunks (~70% of his power, his max without bulking up) while Cold stopped suppressing himself in an instant to dodge Trunks' blast (100% of his power). Which means that they were functionally equal to one another when they were killed, which is implied by Trunks one-shotting both of them and both of them appearing about as quick as each other to dodge Trunks' first attack, as well as them both being grouped together by Kami years later.

King Cold- 10,000,000
--Full Power- 100,000,000
Mecha Freeza- 7,500,000
--vs Trunks- 100,000,000
--Full Power (unseen)- 150,000,000
Trunks- 3,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 150,000,000

Yeah, I have Freeza suppressed lower because I like to fit the anime and manga together, and it doesn't explicitly contradict anything. In the anime, while both are coming to Earth, Ten and Vegeta both say that Cold's ki makes Freeza's look puny, before Gohan chimes in and says this is just a fraction of what Freeza can really do.

[Kamiccolo9]

So. This quote:

Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth! If he had come back together as one, he might not have had to die…”

Discuss. This seems to imply merging with Kami makes Piccolo twice as strong. While this works for the android arc and arguably Namek arc, it's really questionable when it comes to anything before that. Yet the statement does seem to outright say that he only halved his power...

I just take it as half of the Namekian's dormant power went into both Daimao and Kami, and when they re-fused, his dormant power went back to what it was before. I doubt the Nameless Namekian was that strong before he split, since he grew up on Earth, so I think that's the only way that really makes sense, considering how strong Piccolo ended up becoming.

[Herms]

I tend to think of it as like the base stats in Pokemon: a Venusaur has higher base stats than an Ivysaur, which in turn has higher base stats than a Bulbasaur. But a level 100 Bulbasaur will be stronger than a level 40 Venusaur.

The child of Katatz was like a level 40 Venusaur. He spits out the "faint evil" that becomes Piccolo, who's like a level 1 Bulbasaur, which weakens him into a level 40 Ivysaur. By the Cell arc, Piccolo is now a level 100 Bubasaur, and reuniting turns him into a level 100 Venusaur. His base stats technically just go back to what they were before the split, but since Piccolo had leveled up so much on his own, he's now far stronger than the original child of Katatz.

Anyway, if you think of the split as dividing the child of Katatz's "base stats" in two, rather than his battle power, it fits with the Great Elder's statement. Battle power would be equivalent to a Pokemon's level, or maybe to their accumulated stats or something like that.

[ZombieVito]

SSJ Trunks at 150,000,000? While you're theory sounds good, they where never stated to powered up.

[Kakashi]

So. This quote:

Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth! If he had come back together as one, he might not have had to die…”

Discuss. This seems to imply merging with Kami makes Piccolo twice as strong. While this works for the android arc and arguably Namek arc, it's really questionable when it comes to anything before that. Yet the statement does seem to outright say that he only halved his power...

Well that one doesn't work with Gohan's statement. Unless Cold is suppressed too.

Just to revisit this, I think that Cold and Freeza were suppressed to something like 10% and 5% of their respective full powers on the way to Earth; Freeza stopped suppressing himself when he lashed out at Trunks (~70% of his power, his max without bulking up) while Cold stopped suppressing himself in an instant to dodge Trunks' blast (100% of his power). Which means that they were functionally equal to one another when they were killed, which is implied by Trunks one-shotting both of them and both of them appearing about as quick as each other to dodge Trunks' first attack, as well as them both being grouped together by Kami years later.

King Cold- 10,000,000
--Full Power- 100,000,000
Mecha Freeza- 7,000,000
--vs Trunks- ~98,000,000
--Full Power (unseen)- 140,000,000
Trunks- 3,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 150,000,000

Yeah, I have Freeza suppressed lower because I like to fit the anime and manga together, and it doesn't explicitly contradict anything. In the anime, while both are coming to Earth, Ten and Vegeta both say that Cold's ki makes Freeza's look puny, before Gohan chimes in and says this is just a fraction of what Freeza can really do.

One Armed Future SSjin Trunks would beat Namek SSjin Goku and SSjin Trunks equals Gohan

[RandomGuy96]

SSJ Trunks at 150,000,000? While you're theory sounds good, they where never stated to powered up.

It was implied though; Freeza wouldn't actually be powering up per se, he'd just stop suppressing himself.

[Herms]

Yeah, when Gohan says "oh, he gets much stronger than this", Freeza is just lounging around in his ship. Do we really need to be explicitly told "hey, he's using more power now!" when he starts to fight? Against a Super Saiyan?

[Kakashi]

EOZ Base Goku's power level. You guys claim BOG Base Goku who should be much stronger than Boo Arc Base Goku is weaker than Freeza but what about EOZ Base Goku?

[RandomGuy96]

EOZ Base Goku's power level. You guys claim BOG Base Goku who should be much stronger than Boo Arc Base Goku is weaker than Freeza but what about EOZ Base Goku?

90 million. Stronger than Buu Saga Goku (80 million) but weaker than BOG Goku (95 million), as Toriyama said.

[Saiga]

100 million for me. Stronger than Boo arc Goku at 80 million, and I just don't take anything about BoG into account.

[Kaboom]

About 90 million for me, up from 80 million in the Boo arc. He's spent the time doing normal training in a regular living body, and wouldn't see any drastic increases again until he had Oob for a training partner. I also consider Battle of Gods its own thing branching from the series for the time being.

[ZombieVito]

Buu: 80 million.
BoG: 90 million.
EoZ: 100 million.

[RandomGuy96]

Slightly updated list in light of me recently changing my mind on some things, like Piccolo having to be strong enough to stomp Mecha Arc Trunks, and Gohan getting stronger in between the Cell and Buu sagas.

Spoiler:

CELL SAGA

Arrival of Mecha Freeza

Goku - 3,700,000
--Super Saiyan - 185,000,000
Trunks- 3,300,000
--Super Saiyan - 165,000,000
Piccolo - 3,200,000
Vegeta - 2,800,000

Mecha Freeza-
--En route to Earth- 4,500,000
--Natural Max (vs Future Trunks)- 100,000,000
--Full Power (not seen or used)- 150,000,000
King Cold-
--Full Power- 100,000,000
--En route to Earth- 7,000,000

Cooler's Revenge

Goku- 4,200,000
---Kaio-Ken x10 - 42,000,000
---Kaio-Ken x20 - 84,000,000
----x20 Kamehameha - 126,000,000
---Super Saiyan - 210,000,000
----Kamehameha- 300,000,000
Piccolo - 5,000,000
Gohan- 1,800,000
Krillin- 1,500,000

Cooler-
--True Form- 36,000,000
--Fifth Form: 180,000,000
---Supernova: 280,000,000
Salza: 2,800,000
Doore: 2,500,000
Neiz: 2,300,000


Trunks' Future

Future Gohan- 2,700,000
--Super Saiyan: 135,000,000
---Anime Version- 320,000,000

Future Android 18- 270,000,000
Future Android 17- 280,000,000

Arrival of the Androids

Goku- 4,800,000
--Super Saiyan- 240,000,000
--Sick- 120,000,000
Vegeta- 5,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 250,000,000
---Post-energy drain- 100,000,000
Trunks- 3,600,000
--Super Saiyan- 180,000,000
Piccolo- 160,000,000
--Suppressed- 16,000,000
Gohan- 4,000,000
Krillin- 3,600,000
Tenshinhan- 2,400,000
Yamcha- 2,000,000

Android 20- 90,000,000
--+Vegeta's ki- 100,000,000
--+Piccolo's ki: 116,000,000
Android 19- 80,000,000
--+Goku's ki- 175,000,000
Android 18- 305,000,000
Android 17- 320,000,000
Android 16- 470,000,000

Return of Cooler

Piccolo- 320,000,000
Vegeta- 5,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 250,000,000
Goku- 4,800,000
--Super Saiyan- 240,000,00

Metal Cooler- 200,000,000
--Post Repair- 400,000,00

Super Android 13

Piccolo- 320,000,000
Vegeta- 5,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 250,000,000
Goku- 4,800,000
--Super Saiyan- 240,000,000
Trunks- 3,600,000
--Super Saiyan- 180,000,000

Android 13- 260,000,000
--Super 13- 450,000,000
Android 14- 160,000,000
Android 15- 220,000,000

Imperfect Cell Arc

Imperfect Cell Initial- 270,000,000
--Kamehameha- 284,000,000
--Post-human meal- 490,000,000
Android 16- 470,000,000
Piccolo: 320,000,000
--Exhausted- 260,000,000
---Light Grenade (x1.5)- 390,000,000
Android 17- 320,000,000

Birth of Perfect Cell

Cell-
--Semi-Perfect- 700,000,000
--Initial Perfect- 1,200,000,000

Vegeta- 12,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 600,000,000
--Grade II- 900,000,000
---Fatigued- 810,000,000
Trunks- 11,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 550,000,000
--Grade II- 825,000,000
--Grade III- 1,375,000,000

Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan

Goku- 24,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 1,200,000,000
Vegeta- 12,000,00
--Super Saiyan Grade II- 900,000,000
Trunks- 11,000,000
--Super Saiyan Grade II- 825,000,000
Piccolo- 800,000,000
Gohan- 14,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 700,000,000

Broly- 30,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 1,500,000,000
--Legendary Super Saiyan- 3,000,000,000

Cell Games

Gohan- 56,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 2,800,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 7,500,000,000
---Final Kamehameha- 15,000,000,000
Goku- 44,000,000
--50% Super Saiyan Power- 1,100,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 2,200,000,000
---Instant Super Kamehameha- 5,000,000,000
Vegeta- 34,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 1,700,000,000
Trunks- 32,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 1,600,000,000
Piccolo- 1,000,000,000

Perfect Cell-
--vs Goku- 2,500,000,000
--Full Power- 5,000,000,000
--Super Perfect- 7,200,000,000
---Solar Kamehameha- 14,000,000,000
Cell Juniors- 1,700,000,000

Bojack Unbound

Gohan- 56,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 2,800,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 5,600,000,000
Vegeta- 34,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 1,700,000,000
Trunks- 32,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 1,600,000,000
Piccolo- 1,000,000,000

Bojack- 2,400,000,000
--Super Bojack- 3,600,000,000
Bido- 2,000,000,000
Zangya- 1,800,000,000
Bujin- 1,600,000,000
Kogu- 600,000,000
--Super Kogu- 900,000,000

Spoiler:

Broly: Second Coming

Gohan- 56,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 2,800,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 5,600,000,000
Trunks- 32,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 1,600,000,000
Goten- 30,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 1,500,000,000

Broly- 72,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 3,600,000,000
--Legendary Super Saiyan- 7,200,000,000

BUU SAGA

Tournament

Goku- 81,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 4,050,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 8,100,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 32,400,000,000
Vegeta- 62,000,000
--Dormant Power- 75,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 3,100,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 6,200,000,000
Gohan- 56,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 2,800,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 5,600,000,000
Kaioshin- 2,000,000,000
Trunks- 32,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 1,600,000,000
Goten- 30,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 1,500,000,000
Piccolo- 1,300,000,000
Kibito- 50,000,000
Krillin- 4,000,000

Babidi Saga

Goku- 81,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 4,050,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 8,100,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 32,400,000,000
Majin Vegeta- 81,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 4,050,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 8,100,000,000

Gotenks- 7,800,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 19,500,000,000

Dabra- 5,000,000,000
Yakon- 120,000,000
Pui Pui- 180,000

Fat Buu-
--Initial- 6,000,000,000
--Power Up 1- 9,000,000,000
--Power Up 2- 12,000,000,000
--Splitting- 60,000,000,000

Fusion Reborn

Gogeta-
--Super Saiyan- 52,000,000,000

Goku- 81,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 8,100,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 32,400,000,000
Vegeta- 85,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 8,500,000,000

Janemba- 20,000,000,000
--Super Janemba- 40,000,000,000
---Injured- 35,000,000,000

Great Saiyaman- 56,000,000

Freeza (10%)- 12,000,000

Fusion Saga

Vegetto-
--Super Saiyan- 810,000,000,000

Super Buu- 60,000,000,000
--Piccolo absorbed- 61,000,000,000
--Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed- 65,000,000,000
--Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed- 136,000,000,000
--Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed- 170,000,000,000

Hypothetical Gogeta
--Super Saiyan- 52,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 78,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 156,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan- 105,000,000,000

Gotenks- 10,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 25,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 37,500,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 75,000,000,000

Kibito Kai- 5,545,800,000

Trunks- 40,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 2,000,000,000

Goten- 40,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 2,000,000,000

Tenshinhan- 3,600,000


Kid Buu Returns

Goku- 81,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 32,400,000,000
--Genki Dama-
---+Gohan's ki- 33,000,000,000
---+other's ki- 37,000,000,000
---+Earthlings' ki- 47,000,000,000

Mr.Buu- 30,000,000,000

Vegeta- 85,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 8,500,000,000

Kid Buu- 36,000,000,000
--South Kaioshin absorbed (flashback)- 63,000,000,000

South Kaioshin- 27,000,000,000
West Kaioshin- 4,000,000,00
Grand Kaioshin- 3,000,000,000
North Kaioshin- 2,500,000,000
East Kaioshin- 2,000,000,000
Old Kai- 30,000,000

Wrath of the Dragon

Gohan- 105,000,000,000
Gotenks- 10,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 75,000,000,000
Goku- 90,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 36,000,000,000

Hirudegarn- 60,000,000,000
--Transformed- 160,000,000,000
---Without tail- 45,000,000,000

[Saiga]

So, just the first things I thought of when I saw your list:

You seem to have left some out. Semi-Perfect Cell only has 1 listing, and Grade III Trunks is missing. I can understand leaving out Cell's initial power if what you listed was his full power (seems to be) but was the lack of Grade III Trunks a mistake? What's his level?

Also, what made you pump up Boo arc Goku ever so slightly to 81,000,000? And you seemed to have changed your mind on Janemba's strength, relative to Goku. Any reason for this?

Was Old Kaioshin's 30,000,000 battle power just there for shits and giggles, or do you have a reason for it being that high?

[RandomGuy96]

Ah crap, I submitted the wrong draft. My mistake. Well, I re-added Grade III Trunks at least. He's 1,375,000,000. Initial Cell is 1.2 billion.

Yeah, Semi-Cell only has one listing because I don't think the difference between his "initial" and full power is important in any way.

I pumped him up that tiiiiny bit to make him exactly 90% of Pure Buu. I like having Pure Buu at 36 billion.

You mean how I used to think Janemba was weaker than Goku? I still don't see anything wrong with that, but I just sort of decided to make him moderately stronger because I think that's what was implied if not explicitly shown.

Mostly for shits and giggles. If I was to give him an accurate power level, according to my Potara formula, he'd probably be below 1000.

Was I missing anything else?

[Saiga]

Well, I don't think it's wrong either - it's certainly not impossible given what we see - but yes, I definitely think it's implied that Janemba was stronger. It was interesting for you to point out how Janemba being weaker could fit as well, though.

Oh just a minor error but you missed three 0's off full power Fat Boo's power level. Other than that, no, I think you haven't missed anything. The list is looking nice, other than those things we already disagree on (which is really just Gotenks and the humans, I guess).