Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Mr Baggins]

Not really any leads to go on with Freeza vs. Gohan at the moment. Both of them eclipse Goku and Vegeta, and that's about all we know.

Either the series will address this or it won't.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

From the latest Chapter 93 draft.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1656 ... 2F80440512

Vegeta says how in the past few years he’s been surpassed by Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas, and then Freeza. What’s the difference between them and him? Goku thinks it must be that that Vegeta didn’t make his body strong enough.

So Vegeta seems to believe he's below everyone now.

[Berserker1921]

From the latest Chapter 93 draft.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1656 ... 2F80440512

Vegeta says how in the past few years he’s been surpassed by Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas, and then Freeza. What’s the difference between them and him? Goku thinks it must be that that Vegeta didn’t make his body strong enough.

So Vegeta seems to believe he's below everyone now.

So saiyans don’t grow a thousand levels in-between sagas. As I theorized. They just learned how to access the stronger forms for longer periods of time. That’s all. Or have to rely on those advanced forms to be strong.

[Yuji]

There's no way Vegeta can be below Moro and (ToP) Jiren at this point unless we assume Goku got weaker from the Moro arc to the Granolah arc or can't access his full power due to his emotional state, which is a possibility I put forth a few days ago. If UE is equal to at least Moro arc UI that necessarily puts him above those two.

Or maybe he's just listing off the opponents that have come out of nowhere stronger than him, not necessarily those that are stronger right now.

[Miracles]

Vegeta is talking about each fight he has had in that moment and time. Jiren clapped Evolution Vegeta, Broly molly whopped him, Trained on Yardrat and still was weaker than Moro, Gas laughed at him and Freeza literally blew by him like the wind.

[Hugo Boss]

Or maybe he's just listing off the opponents that have come out of nowhere stronger than him, not necessarily those that are stronger right now.

That’s the interpretation I got. I don’t see why someone would believe he isn’t stronger than Moro right now. Seems to me more like he is listing off the main antagonists that ended up stronger than him in their own arcs.

[Cipher]

From the latest Chapter 93 draft.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1656 ... 2F80440512

Vegeta says how in the past few years he’s been surpassed by Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas, and then Freeza. What’s the difference between them and him? Goku thinks it must be that that Vegeta didn’t make his body strong enough.

So Vegeta seems to believe he's below everyone now.

That's not the thrust. Vegeta is wondering why he's constantly been one step behind all their news foes. (As they emerged; not necessarily than each of them at this point in time.)

He's wondering why he's always on the back foot/keeps being surpassed.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I agree with everyone's interpretation on the line. It makes much more sense than him still being below everyone.

[QuakingStar]

“Gohan is the strongest… or so it’s said” doesn’t sound very definitive to me.

Not sure about this interview, but the movie came out a few months before Black Freeza’s debut. Freeza is the next opponent, so it makes no sense for him to be surpassed even before they fight him, unless Gohan slacks off again (which would make the movie pointless).

From Herms https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FT0I2PnVEAA ... name=large

Gohans chance to shine was him being the MC alongside Piccolo and then awakening Beast. Gohan became the strongest once he got beast, it's quite clear the implication. Many of you keep harping on the "BUT" part of Broly's translation, but ignore the "BUT" part here. I'm positive that Gohan will not be involved vs Frieza so him being the strongest won't matter. It's the same as vs Kid Buu, he was still the strongest but he wasn't involved.

[Miracles]

Just like the movie, the manga will also have Gohan the strongest in the universe too. Backing up Toriyama's own statement and him referring to his own plot point for Gohan in Super Hero.

[picc]

I agree with everyone's interpretation on the line. It makes much more sense than him still being below everyone.

How is there any other interpretation? That line wasn't confusing at all.

[Jiren The Alpha]

I agree with everyone's interpretation on the line. It makes much more sense than him still being below everyone.

How is there any other interpretation? That line wasn't confusing at all.

Words have always been confusing for Dragon Ball fans.

[ZombieVito]

Just like the movie, the manga will also have Gohan the strongest in the universe too. Backing up Toriyama's own statement and him referring to his own plot point for Gohan in Super Hero.

And Piccolo will be on par with UI Goku and UE Vegeta. I can't wait to see how people try to nerf him again lol.

[picc]

I agree with everyone's interpretation on the line. It makes much more sense than him still being below everyone.

How is there any other interpretation? That line wasn't confusing at all.

Words have always been confusing for Dragon Ball fans.

I'm just confused how there could be any confusion at all.

Even if you think there could be different interpretations of the line, if one of them is “vegeta is talking about being surpassed at the specific time,” and the other is “vegeta is still weaker than dead and defeated villains from three sagas ago despite surpassing the newly strongest being in the universe an hour ago”, basic common sense should eliminate the far less likely of the two.

No wonder these arguments never end.

[Miracles]

Just like the movie, the manga will also have Gohan the strongest in the universe too. Backing up Toriyama's own statement and him referring to his own plot point for Gohan in Super Hero.

And Piccolo will be on par with UI Goku and UE Vegeta. I can't wait to see how people try to nerf him again lol.

I wholeheartedly agree. Piccolo being able to compete with Goku and Co again is a story point from Toriyama. Meaning he wants Piccolo to be among the competition again. Toyotaro will have Piccolo on the Saiyans level in their most powerful form.

[QuakingStar]

Just like the movie, the manga will also have Gohan the strongest in the universe too. Backing up Toriyama's own statement and him referring to his own plot point for Gohan in Super Hero.

And Piccolo will be on par with UI Goku and UE Vegeta. I can't wait to see how people try to nerf him again lol.

I wholeheartedly agree. Piccolo being able to compete with Goku and Co again is a story point from Toriyama. Meaning he wants Piccolo to be among the competition again. Toyotaro will have Piccolo on the Saiyans level in their most powerful form.

In power, yes. Sadly, unlike the Saiyans Piccolo does not have hax ways to get stronger so they again surpass him completely very shortly. Gohan will slack off again and struggle to re-awaken Ultimate, let alone Beast and then the next time he awakens both he will be even stronger than before thanks to his bottomless potential. It's just how they operate with those two.

[Miracles]

And Piccolo will be on par with UI Goku and UE Vegeta. I can't wait to see how people try to nerf him again lol.

I wholeheartedly agree. Piccolo being able to compete with Goku and Co again is a story point from Toriyama. Meaning he wants Piccolo to be among the competition again. Toyotaro will have Piccolo on the Saiyans level in their most powerful form.

In power, yes. Sadly, unlike the Saiyans Piccolo does not have hax ways to get stronger so they again surpass him completely very shortly. Gohan will slack off again and struggle to re-awaken Ultimate, let alone Beast and then the next time he awakens both he will be even stronger than before thanks to his bottomless potential. It's just how they operate with those two.

We shall see since Toriyama said that we are close to the end of the tournament. For now Piccolo is said to be among the best, lets see how and enjoy it.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong was Goku Black when he fought Goku in the present? Trunks said Black was stronger than SSJ3 a few episodes before, but then he also said Black was really close to full power when the latter fought SSJ2 Goku.

[Yuji]

How strong was Goku Black when he fought Goku in the present? Trunks said Black was stronger than SSJ3 a few episodes before, but then he also said Black was really close to full power when the latter fought SSJ2 Goku.

Unlike the manga where Black unlocks Rosé by fighting Goku and Vegeta, it was never really implied Black didn't have access to the form the whole time. We can assume he had Rosé and Trunks likely sensed some hidden strength, as we've seen characters do before. Or maybe he also has the golden forms and Trunks forced him to transform once or twice.

Regardless, Black was toying with SS2 Goku and later tanks multiple hits from SSB Vegeta so I honestly wouldn't doubt if his base is close to a SSG level and Rosé is merely the Super Saiyan equivalent and he can't use the gold forms at all. Rosé is thus a 50x boost on top of his base instead of being a several thousand-time multiplier like Blue.

[SupremeKai25]

How strong was Goku Black when he fought Goku in the present? Trunks said Black was stronger than SSJ3 a few episodes before, but then he also said Black was really close to full power when the latter fought SSJ2 Goku.

That's because Black has immense power in his new body, he simply can't access it without fighting Goku first. Trunks naturally felt that power while fighting him, because it is present in his body, but Black couldn't access it yet.

We see that when Black fights Goku, he progressively powers-up and becomes stronger, gradually awakening the great strength of his body, with Krillin even noting that Black's power keeps rising as the fight progresses; that's because, as he fights Goku, Black learns how to tap more and more into the huge power reserves of his body. At the climax of the fight, Black was even able to completely outplay and overpower SS2 Goku with an energy ball + kick combo. Right after the battle, Trunks says that Black was stronger in his fight with Goku compared to his fights in the Future.

If the fight had continued, Black would have kept growing in power until Goku would have been forced to use SS3 to stand a chance. He was already getting completely outmatched and only got a cheap shot on Black after Trunks distracted him by shouting about the Time machine.