Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kazuya Mishima]

Yes, this was oneshot in the truest definition of the word:

No it wasn't because it wasn't over in one shot. That clip shows the final blow in an otherwise somewhat evenly fought battle where Vados and Champa had doubts.

Orange Piccolo literally one shot Gamma 2. Blue Goku and Super Saiyan Kefla fought for a fair bit prior to this.

Evolved Vegeta is equal to that Kaio-ken Goku and Toppo outmatched him to a greater extent than what Kefla did with Goku. The Vegeta that beat Toppo was stronger still. He wasn't still equal to Kaio-ken by then.

[Goku9001]

Vegeta's Blue Evolved form is the culmination of him pressing against Jiren repeatedly in hopes of growing stronger. Whis describes this as Vegeta pushing his own limits in hopes of obtaining Ultra Instinct as Goku did. Once Vegeta's Blue Evolved form is awakened, it's suggested to be a limit-breaking transformation. That is, he awakened it when he pushed past a certain point and that was the result of it rather than obtaining Ultra Instinct as Goku did. I'm in the camp where Blue Vegeta reached a level that at least surpassed KKx20 Blue Goku during his first battle with Jiren. But, I don't really see that much of an issue as long as you acknowledge that Vegeta did progressively grow stronger during his battle with Jiren because it is heavily enforced by the narrative.

[SupremeKai25]

Yes, this was oneshot in the truest definition of the word:

No it wasn't because it wasn't over in one shot. That clip shows the final blow in an otherwise somewhat evenly fought battle where Vados and Champa had doubts.

Orange Piccolo literally one shot Gamma 2. Blue Goku and Super Saiyan Kefla fought for a fair bit prior to this.

Evolved Vegeta is equal to that Kaio-ken Goku and Toppo outmatched him to a greater extent than what Kefla did with Goku. The Vegeta that beat Toppo was stronger still. He wasn't still equal to Kaio-ken by then.

What happened before that is irrelevant, it's still proof that Kefla has the strength to oneshot Goku and speed higher than his. A oneshot is a oneshot, the circumstances don't matter. Sorbet also oneshot SSB Goku, circumstances are irrelevant.

And Kefla vs. SSB Goku was over in oneshot, that's why Goku's last chance was to turn UI.

The writer of last episode of Super said that SSB Evolved remained equal to SSB Kaioken, there is not a single point in time in which SSB Evolved is stronger than SSB Kaioken. The director of ep. 131 (last episode) stated that SSB Evolved is intended to be roughly equal to SSB Kaioken. Any supposed difference in power between the two forms is negligible.

[ankokudaishogun]

I don't follow the manga closely, but could someone explain to me what the actual difference is between Mastered Ultra Instinct and True Ultra Instinct?

We haven't been told yet.

My personal opinion is that the "Full" white-haired Ultra Instinct is a technique that does not fully fit Goku's style as it requires isolating one's self from emotions.

The "True" UI is basically Goku starting at the "limited emotion"(as in: feel emotions but not let yourself swayed by them) stage of Sign and then developing from there in his own way.

On a more immediate time-frame, though, it's basically Goku trading greater power(Mastered) for greater consistency(True).
And nothing stops him from going Mastered if necessary

[Kazuya Mishima]

A oneshot is a oneshot

Yeah....but there was no one shot. So why even bring it up?

Again when Piccolo went Orange and smacked Gamma 2, that was a one shot. When Goku used Blue Kaio-ken and knocked Fused Zamasu on his ass so bad he had to beg for more power from the sky, that was a one shot.

There was no one shot for Kefla. There were many shots.

[Seekeroftruth]

Let's do strength calculation for Black Frieza.



In DBS chapter 27, Beerus was said to have been still fooling around with Perfect SSB Vegeta. Whis then hinted that Beerus would need to get serious in order to end the fight in an instant. When Vegeta landed a hit on Beerus, he got really mad and knocking him out with one attack. While Beerus was on the ground, he told Vegeta that in another universe he would have been a candidate for GoD. It should be noted that in the 11th Universe, Toppo is also a candidate and the second strongest after Jiren; jiren declining to be a GoD.

In DBS Chapter 29, Iwan described SSG Goku and Toppo's fighting skills to be at the level of the gods. In said chapter , we got to see how the GoD compared to one another, with Beerus being considered above average and being one of the few remaining GoD left standing. Toppo says at the end of the chapter that Jiren's power exceeds that of Belmond, the God of Universe 11. In DBS 41, Goku subconsciously masters UI and was able to beat Jiren in combat until he ran out of steam. The damage that Jiren received was so great that it reduce his powers to the point that a combine assault from weaker fighters was able to take him out.

After ToP, Goku went into the RoST to train with Meerus for 2 months. Meerus states that Goku is able to activate UI sign at will and he was able to put up a decent fight against Moro. Meerus intervenes and is able to completely overpower Meerus (trainee angel) but at the cost of being wiped out of existence, since he broke angel code. In DBS chapter 68, Whis says that the order of UI skill level goes as follow (Meerus-->Goku--->Whis+ other trained angels--->Grand Priest).

Granola makes a wish to become the strongest mortal at the cost of his life span decreasing. Granola was able to defeat UI Goku (mastered), who was stronger than Jiren> Belmond God of destruction. Granola was then usurped as strongest mortal after Elec wished Gas to be the strongest mortal. When it looked like Gas was going to finish everyone off, Frieza stepped in, having spent 10 years in the RoST. Frieza was not counted as a mortal warrior in Universe 7 due to being in another universe, which allowed him to be overpower Gas. After turning into his new Black Frieza form, he effortlessly one shotted Gas, who was still considered the strongest mortal. Frieza then killed Elec for betraying him and easily defeated UE Vegeta and ultra instinct Goku.

So Black Frieza >>> Gas> Granola> UE Vegeta>/~ Mastered UI Goku >Jiren> Bemond, GoD.

Where do you place Black Frieza's power in Super? Is he Beerus' equal now?

[Miracles]

I don't think so. The anime is also consistent with the manga where the Blue Saiyans are capable of fending off Merged Zamasu to some degree. I can't really see how SSJR Goku Black is even relevant to Blue Saiyans after the conclusion of the Zamasu arc.

Agreed. Goku in Blue alone was able to overpower fused Zamas with a Kamehameha using his "full power." It seems like Goku was holding back the entire fight against Black.

He was holding back against the villain who slaughtered his family with his body and gloated about it?

That's OOC for Goku.

Goku was never "holding back" against Black, he was simply fodder. Even Kaioken wouldn't have done anything but make Black stronger through massive beat down.

Goku Black's much greater in Fused Zamas couldn't heal properly because of Black's mortal body taking damage from Goku's full power onslaught. Black alone wouldn't survive to grow in strength since he'll obviously be dead. Goku was indeed holding back.

[Goku9001]

The way I see it is that Kaioken Blue Goku may have been one-shot by Super Saiyan Kefla. However, keep in mind that at no point does Beerus or Whis question Goku's power in the battle. Their only concern was Goku's lack of stamina up until that point which forced Goku to rush the fight. Goku's need to rush the fight given his lowered stamina is what caused him to get reckless and left him vulnerable to a critical blow in his blindspot. It was ultimately an equal fight after Super Saiyan Kefla powered up again.

Ultimately, Super Saiyan Kefla was compared to the U7 Genkidama Explosion which forced Goku into Ultra Instinct. The U7 Genkidama Explosion was a result of both Jiren's and Kaioken Blue Goku's energies slamming into eachother. That should naturally be above Goku's U7 Genkidama on its own and I'd imagine that would exceed the power of Trunks' Genkidama which was enough to overwhelm Merged Zamasu. If this is a way of elevating Merged Zamasu to a higher level, don't bother. I think it's clear that Merged Zamasu's power had already been superseded by the greatest shown in the Tournament of Power.

[SupremeKai25]

A oneshot is a oneshot

Yeah....but there was no one shot. So why even bring it up?

There was? It is literally shown in the video. She literally ended the fight in oneshot and could have knocked him off the tournament ground right after.

There was no one shot for Kefla. There were many shots.

The fact that there were many shots before that doesn't change the fact that Kefla has enough strength to oneshot Goku, as clearly demonstrated by that video. The fact that there were several shots before that just proves Kefla was holding back and when she went all out, she oneshot Goku. As shown in the video.

So Yes, SS1 Kefla effortlessly oneshot SSB Evolved Vegeta who is only SSB Kaioken's equal (stated by Toei writer of final episode).

Agreed. Goku in Blue alone was able to overpower fused Zamas with a Kamehameha using his "full power." It seems like Goku was holding back the entire fight against Black.

He was holding back against the villain who slaughtered his family with his body and gloated about it?

That's OOC for Goku.

Goku was never "holding back" against Black, he was simply fodder. Even Kaioken wouldn't have done anything but make Black stronger through massive beat down.

Goku Black's much greater in Fused Zamas couldn't heal properly because of Black's mortal body taking damage from Goku's full power onslaught. Black alone wouldn't survive to grow in strength since he'll obviously be dead. Goku was indeed holding back.

Zamasu was damaged by Kamehameha as well as his own Holy Wrath attack being pushed back against him and exploding on top of him.

Goku would not hold back when they were getting their ass stomped twice, unless he's a sadist/suicidal. But that is not Super Goku's character trait.

The way I see it is that Kaioken Blue Goku may have been one-shot by Super Saiyan Kefla. However, keep in mind that at no point does Beerus or Whis question Goku's power in the battle. Their only concern was Goku's lack of stamina up until that point which forced Goku to rush the fight. Goku's need to rush the fight given his lowered stamina is what caused him to get reckless and left him vulnerable to a critical blow in his blindspot. It was ultimately an equal fight after Super Saiyan Kefla powered up again.

Ultimately, Super Saiyan Kefla was compared to the U7 Genkidama Explosion which forced Goku into Ultra Instinct. The U7 Genkidama Explosion was a result of both Jiren's and Kaioken Blue Goku's energies slamming into eachother. That should naturally be above Goku's U7 Genkidama on its own and I'd imagine that would exceed the power of Trunks' Genkidama which was enough to overwhelm Merged Zamasu. If this is a way of elevating Merged Zamasu to a higher level, don't bother. I think it's clear that Merged Zamasu's power had already been superseded by the greatest shown in the Tournament of Power.

Trunks defeated an exhausted Zamasu who was falling apart from getting damaged repeatedly by SSB Vegito (who would naturally, logically, rationally be above SS2 Kefla), the fact that Trunks finished off extremely weakened Zamasu is irrelevant.

[Kazuya Mishima]

There was? It is literally shown in the video. She literally ended the fight in oneshot and could have knocked him off the tournament ground right after.

The video showed the final shot. A shot that came after many shots were thrown and exchanged over a fairly evenly fought battle where Vados was doubtful if she could win and Champa thought she could purely because Goku was still tired.

It's the equivalent of showing the punch that Goku gave King Piccolo which killed him and saying that was a one shot.

A one shot is literally when a character defeats another in just one attack, like Goku and Recoome or Gohan and Cell Jr.

[Miracles]

He was holding back against the villain who slaughtered his family with his body and gloated about it?

That's OOC for Goku.

Goku was never "holding back" against Black, he was simply fodder. Even Kaioken wouldn't have done anything but make Black stronger through massive beat down.

Goku Black's much greater in Fused Zamas couldn't heal properly because of Black's mortal body taking damage from Goku's full power onslaught. Black alone wouldn't survive to grow in strength since he'll obviously be dead. Goku was indeed holding back.

Zamasu was damaged by Kamehameha as well as his own Holy Wrath attack being pushed back against him and exploding on top of him.

Goku would not hold back when they were getting their ass stomped twice, unless he's a sadist/suicidal. But that is not Super Goku's character trait.

The same Goku who fought Majin Vegeta holding back SSJ3, knowing the damage he took would feed Majin Buu. Add to the fact that Vegeta even said in the same arc that Goku has a bad habit of holding back. Goku did exactly that against Black. He didn't use KaiokenX10 against him.

[Miracles]

Due to the revelation how Jiren's power wasn't so much different from Goku and Vegeta's it seems the TOP's theme about Goku always lacking stamina connects. The difference is the way Jiren used his ki to preserve energy is what really separated him. In the Super Hero movie Vegeta is now adopting the tactic to make up for that weakness.

[ZombieVito]

The same Goku who fought Majin Vegeta holding back SSJ3, knowing the damage he took would feed Majin Buu. Add to the fact that Vegeta even said in the same arc that Goku has a bad habit of holding back. Goku did exactly that against Black. He didn't use KaiokenX10 against him.

Well, considering the preview said Goku is going to use a life risking attack in the episode and the fact that Kaio only mentioned the times 10 variant when instructed him to not use it recklessly then it's a very safe assumption to say he did.

[Miracles]

The same Goku who fought Majin Vegeta holding back SSJ3, knowing the damage he took would feed Majin Buu. Add to the fact that Vegeta even said in the same arc that Goku has a bad habit of holding back. Goku did exactly that against Black. He didn't use KaiokenX10 against him.

Well, considering the preview said Goku is going to use a life risking attack in the episode and the fact that Kaio only mentioned the times 10 variant when instructed him to not use it recklessly then it's a very safe assumption to say he did.

I looked and didn't see such statements in the episode previews. Are you talking about another episodic translation or different preview?

[Goku9001]

Trunks defeated an exhausted Zamasu who was falling apart from getting damaged repeatedly by SSB Vegito (who would naturally, logically, rationally be above SS2 Kefla), the fact that Trunks finished off extremely weakened Zamasu is irrelevant.

I thought Goku Black had no limits. The more damage he takes, the stronger he becomes. What happened to that?

[SupremeKai25]

Trunks defeated an exhausted Zamasu who was falling apart from getting damaged repeatedly by SSB Vegito (who would naturally, logically, rationally be above SS2 Kefla), the fact that Trunks finished off extremely weakened Zamasu is irrelevant.

I thought Goku Black had no limits. The more damage he takes, the stronger he becomes. What happened to that?

Eh? Who is even talking about Goku Black?

Fused Zamasu is not Goku Black. Zamasu's body was unstable and this is the whole reason for his "defeat" to Trunks. Black's body was weaker than the fused being but not unstable. Two different characters and no one's talking about Black.

And Yes, Black has no limits... which is why in Toei Anime Continuity he becomes such an almighty threat that it takes SSB Evolved Gogeta himself to put him down.

[Goku9001]

Trunks defeated an exhausted Zamasu who was falling apart from getting damaged repeatedly by SSB Vegito (who would naturally, logically, rationally be above SS2 Kefla), the fact that Trunks finished off extremely weakened Zamasu is irrelevant.

I thought Goku Black had no limits. The more damage he takes, the stronger he becomes. What happened to that?

Eh? Who is even talking about Goku Black?

Fused Zamasu is not Goku Black. Zamasu's body was unstable and this is the whole reason for his "defeat" to Trunks. Black's body was weaker than the fused being but not unstable. Two different characters and no one's talking about Black.

And Yes, Black has no limits... which is why in Toei Anime Continuity he becomes such an almighty threat that it takes SSB Evolved Gogeta himself to put him down.

Merged Zamasu is worse than Goku Black.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How do Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20 Goku, Ultra Instinct Sign Goku, Super Saiyan Kefla, Super Saiyan 2 Kefla, GoD Toppo and Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta stack up against each other?

Super Saiyan Kefla was meant to be as powerful as the U7 Spirit Bomb right? So surely she should be stronger than SSB KK Goku.

Is it right that Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than what Ultra Instinct Sign Goku was the first time he used it? Didn't Piccolo say as much? Or was he referring to SSB KK?

I imagine SSBE Vegeta was as strong as the KK x20 Goku right? Even though he didn't specifically say it was X20 it had to be yeah?

So where does Toppo fit amongst this? He was ultimately beaten by Vegeta who probably never was as strong as Ultra Instinct Sign at any point so he should be weaker than Super Saiyan Kefla though that's only if Piccolo was referring to her being stronger than Ultra Instinct Sign.

My chain is exactly the same as ZombieVito's, down to the 5x increase. It's a big jump, but not too big. Here, let me show you numbers to explain everything:

Spoiler:

SSJB Goku (Start of ToP): 1
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 20
~ Genki-Dama: 30-40 (It grows by soaking on Goku and Jiren's power)
~ UI Sign: 50

SSJB Goku (Vs Kefla): 2
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 40
~ UI Sign: 100

SSJ Kefla: 40
~ SSJ2: 80+

SSJB Goku (Vs Jiren): 5
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 100
~ UI Sign: 250

SSJB Vegeta: 1
~ Final Flash: 100 (All of U11 feared/were surprised by it, even Jiren and Belmond, when Jiren didn't even bat an eye at the Genki-Dama)
~ Powering up to unlock SSJBE: 5 (To be even with Goku)
~ SSJBE: 100 (Said to "envelop himself with his limit breaking power" so I like to think SSJBE = FF)
~ Powered up vs Toppo: 125

Toppo: 1
~ GoD power: 112.5

Goku Black's ability to get stronger doesn't come out of nowhere, it's a Saiyan trait to get stronger when pushed. When Goku fights the girls, it's constantly noted all of their powers were rising, and I believe Whis even says Goku vs SSJ Kefla could go either way. No power up is noted vs Jiren, but he is surprised by Goku's long power up and Goku and Vegeta are putting up an actual fight.

GoD Toppo is on the same level as his fellow GoDs, on the bottom of said level but still up there. SSJ2 Kefla and UIO Goku don't get such statements, even Goku is just said to be "trying to reach" that level.

Maybe KKx20 SSJB Goku and SSJBE Vegeta (Pre Toppo) don't have to be that strong (With teamwork even 17 was holding his own), but I think it helps things make sense a bit. Vegeta does surpass Toppo and Goku is his equal in DBSB.

[Goku9001]

How do Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20 Goku, Ultra Instinct Sign Goku, Super Saiyan Kefla, Super Saiyan 2 Kefla, GoD Toppo and Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta stack up against each other?

Super Saiyan Kefla was meant to be as powerful as the U7 Spirit Bomb right? So surely she should be stronger than SSB KK Goku.

Is it right that Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than what Ultra Instinct Sign Goku was the first time he used it? Didn't Piccolo say as much? Or was he referring to SSB KK?

I imagine SSBE Vegeta was as strong as the KK x20 Goku right? Even though he didn't specifically say it was X20 it had to be yeah?

So where does Toppo fit amongst this? He was ultimately beaten by Vegeta who probably never was as strong as Ultra Instinct Sign at any point so he should be weaker than Super Saiyan Kefla though that's only if Piccolo was referring to her being stronger than Ultra Instinct Sign.

My chain is exactly the same as ZombieVito's, down to the 5x increase. It's a big jump, but not too big. Here, let me show you numbers to explain everything:

Spoiler:

SSJB Goku (Start of ToP): 1
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 20
~ Genki-Dama: 30-40 (It grows by soaking on Goku and Jiren's power)
~ UI Sign: 50

SSJB Goku (Vs Kefla): 2
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 40
~ UI Sign: 100

SSJ Kefla: 40
~ SSJ2: 80+

SSJB Goku (Vs Jiren): 5
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 100
~ UI Sign: 250

SSJB Vegeta: 1
~ Final Flash: 100 (All of U11 feared/were surprised by it, even Jiren and Belmond, when Jiren didn't even bat an eye at the Genki-Dama)
~ Powering up to unlock SSJBE: 5 (To be even with Goku)
~ SSJBE: 100 (Said to "envelop himself with his limit breaking power" so I like to think SSJBE = FF)
~ Powered up vs Toppo: 125

Toppo: 1
~ GoD power: 112.5

Goku Black's ability to get stronger doesn't come out of nowhere, it's a Saiyan trait to get stronger when pushed. When Goku fights the girls, it's constantly noted all of their powers were rising, and I believe Whis even says Goku vs SSJ Kefla could go either way. No power up is noted vs Jiren, but he is surprised by Goku's long power up and Goku and Vegeta are putting up an actual fight.

GoD Toppo is on the same level as his fellow GoDs, on the bottom of said level but still up there. SSJ2 Kefla and UIO Goku don't get such statements, even Goku is just said to be "trying to reach" that level.

Maybe KKx20 SSJB Goku and SSJBE Vegeta (Pre Toppo) don't have to be that strong (With teamwork even 17 was holding his own), but I think it helps things make sense a bit. Vegeta does surpass Toppo and Goku is his equal in DBSB.

Not going to lie. Those numbers look nice.

Blue Evolved Vegeta ~ UI Omen Goku (116) is a nice way to reconcile with the idea that Vegeta surpassed his limits but is pursuing his own path.

[SupremeKai25]

I thought Goku Black had no limits. The more damage he takes, the stronger he becomes. What happened to that?

Eh? Who is even talking about Goku Black?

Fused Zamasu is not Goku Black. Zamasu's body was unstable and this is the whole reason for his "defeat" to Trunks. Black's body was weaker than the fused being but not unstable. Two different characters and no one's talking about Black.

And Yes, Black has no limits... which is why in Toei Anime Continuity he becomes such an almighty threat that it takes SSB Evolved Gogeta himself to put him down.

Merged Zamasu is worse than Goku Black.

No... Fused Zamasu literally became an Infinite being who could be destroyed only by Zeno. But his body was more unstable than Black's and this is a key plot point. Literally entire Episode 66 and the resolution of that fight is about the fact that Zamasu weakened himself in the long term by fusing because, though his immediate strength was obviously much greater than Black, his body was unstable and could not sustain long fight.

When Zamasu started his fight with Vegito, Trunks knew his place and was just spectating from the sidelines like a useless weakling. Trunks only jump in AFTER Zamasu was done fighting with Vegito, at which point he was extremely exhausted. This is corroborated by Shin noting how Zamasu's body is falling apart.

Goku Black's ability to get stronger doesn't come out of nowhere, it's a Saiyan trait to get stronger when pushed.

It's a Saiyan trait but it's not endless, in both mediums it is stated that Goku and Vegeta peaked with that ability.

Spoiler:

Goku and Vegeta are no longer young, they have peaked.

Black is special and unique compared to them because he's a God piloting a mortal body, this opens up a whole new evolution route for him that obviously isn't available for normal saiyans...

That why, as supported by most recent chapter, Goku and Vegeta's evolution no longer revolves around strength, but around their use and mastery of Ki.