Are Earth's greatest fighters orphans?

[Piccolo Daimao]

You made a mistake in there. Chaotzu didn't fought 100 fights, did he?

Ah, thanks for catching that. Fixed now.

Tenshinhan: Descendant from the three eyed tribe.

*cough*BULLSHIT*cough*

Well, it's official.

Is it? I thought it's just the Daizenshuu that says that. Yes, the Daizenshuu are official guidebooks, but it's not like they are the absolute truth or anything. They've gotten things wrong.

[Savage68]

Yes, the Daizenshuu are official guidebooks, but it's not like they are the absolute truth or anything.

They are when nothing contradicts them, or when no one else can provide anything better to work with. There's no reason to discard Ten being an alien descendant.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yes, the Daizenshuu are official guidebooks, but it's not like they are the absolute truth or anything.

They are when nothing contradicts them, or when no one else can provide anything better to work with. There's no reason to discard Ten being an alien descendant.

There's nothing that proves Tenshinhan is an alien descendant, though. That's why I personally believe it's bullshit. If Tenshinhan didn't have a third eye, no-one would be saying this. I can just as easily say Kuririn's an alien because he has no nose, Chaozu is an alien because he looks like a doll, etc. There's nothing that contradicts the theory that Chaozu is an alien, is there? Or Kuririn, for that matter? So yes, I can discard Tenshinhan being an alien descendant, if it's my opinion and there's no proof.

[Senzu_Bean]

If Tenshinhan didn't have a third eye, no-one would be saying this.

But people aren't saying anything. An official databook says it. Not people!

It is like saying Goku is an alien just because he has a tail and can transform into a giant ape and turn blond... and those don't mean anything.

And Krillin does have a nose... actually he doesn't have a nose but he has nostrils since he can smell. Him not being draw with a nose is the same reason why Chaozu doesn't have one too. It is just a way to show they have small noses, just like when someone draw people with small dots on the place of the eyes.

And I don't believe Chaozu is human like your everyday human - Bulma, Yajirobe, Krillin, Lunch, etc. I honestly believe he is an human from the Otherworld, similar to Mr. Popo and Karin. He is inspired in Japanese ghosts so...

[Savage68]

Yes, the Daizenshuu are official guidebooks, but it's not like they are the absolute truth or anything.

They are when nothing contradicts them, or when no one else can provide anything better to work with. There's no reason to discard Ten being an alien descendant.

There's nothing that proves Tenshinhan is an alien descendant, though. That's why I personally believe it's bullshit. If Tenshinhan didn't have a third eye, no-one would be saying this. I can just as easily say Kuririn's an alien because he has no nose, Chaozu is an alien because he looks like a doll, etc. There's nothing that contradicts the theory that Chaozu is an alien, is there? Or Kuririn, for that matter? So yes, I can discard Tenshinhan being an alien descendant, if it's my opinion and there's no proof.

Why do people keep saying this? There doesn't need to be any proof for anything "baseless" - it's a damn guide. The entire purpose behind it is to guide you through the series; It doesn't matter if you like it or not. Unless the guide is contradicted or there's a more tenable alternative, it's what's canon. Not fans' opinions. If we disregard that, we're just basing statements off of jack squat. Anything official that's uncontradicted >>> any fan's opinion or preferences.

And the entire entry on Ten's alien lineage was based on more than the lone fact that he has three eyes, anyway.

[Herms]

And the entire entry on Ten's alien lineage was based on more than the lone fact that he has three eyes, anyway.

Yeah, it's really used more as an explanation for why he can grow extra arms and split into 4 people than it is an explanation for the extra eye.

[Xyex]

Yes, the Daizenshuu are official guidebooks, but it's not like they are the absolute truth or anything.

They are when nothing contradicts them, or when no one else can provide anything better to work with. There's no reason to discard Ten being an alien descendant.

How about the fact that it wasn't ever even remotely referenced once during the entire series, even during the arcs where aliens were popping up left and right? Vegeta recognized Piccolo, I'm sure he'd be able to place Ti­en if he were some level of alien too. Manga > Anime > Daizenshuu. Nothing in Manga + Nothing in Anime = Daizenshuu overruled.

I can just as easily say Kuririn's an alien because he has no nose, Chaozu is an alien because he looks like a doll, etc. There's nothing that contradicts the theory that Chaozu is an alien, is there? Or Kuririn, for that matter?

That would be kind of sad for humanity. It would leave Yamcha, Roshi, and Her­cule as the only representatives of humans in the series. Not exactly the greatest showing. >.>

If Tenshinhan didn't have a third eye, no-one would be saying this.

But people aren't saying anything. An official databook says it. Not people!

People wrote the book.

And the entire entry on Ten's alien lineage was based on more than the lone fact that he has three eyes, anyway.

True. It's based on the fact that he's got three eyes and that he invented techniques that let him grow an extra set of arms or split into multiple people. But then, that'd still be the same as claiming that Krillin's an alien because he's short, lacks a nose, and invented a technique that creates energy discs. Or that Chaotzu's an alien because he's really short, really white, and has telekinetic powers. Or that Roshi's an alien because he can become really buff and he invented the Kamehameha.

[Herms]

How about the fact that it wasn't ever even remotely referenced once during the entire series, even during the arcs where aliens were popping up left and right? Vegeta recognized Piccolo, I'm sure he'd be able to place Ti­en if he were some level of alien too.

No, something not being said isn't the same thing as something being contradicted. Another bit of background info regarding Tenshinhan given in the guidebooks is that he likes gyouza. Is this automatically false because it's not mentioned in the series? Are you really saying that it's illegimate for guidebooks to provide extra background info not found in the series itself? It's hardly an uncommon thing for guidebooks to do. Heck, it's one of the things guidebooks are for in the first place.

Your point about Vegeta is pretty weak. He recognized one kind of alien, therefore he should be able to recognize any kind of alien? That hardly follows. Not to mention that Tenshinhan is supposed to be only a descendant of the Three-Eyed Clan. He might not even look much like a full-blooded one.

Manga > Anime > Daizenshuu. Nothing in Manga + Nothing in Anime = Daizenshuu overruled.

How do you figure that the anime automatically overrule the daizenshuu? The first place the "Three-Eyed Clan" info is mentioned is Daizenshuu 4, a guidebook that deals solely with the manga. Toriyama provided lots of information for the book, like the map of the DB Earth and cosmos. It's quite likely he supplied the Three-Eyed Clan info as well. Why does a guide to the manga which we know Toriyama supplied info for necessarily less authoritative than the anime? Though again, "not mentioned" isn't the same thing as "contradicted", so I don't see how the daizenshuu could be "overruled" in this case.

That would be kind of sad for humanity. It would leave Yamcha, Roshi, and Her­cule as the only representatives of humans in the series. Not exactly the greatest showing. >.>

Well if it makes you feel better, Saiyans are humans, according to Vegeta, and Ginyu considers himself human. The term "human" in DB isn't limited to the people of Earth.

True. It's based on the fact that he's got three eyes and that he invented techniques that let him grow an extra set of arms or split into multiple people. But then, that'd still be the same as claiming that Krillin's an alien because he's short, lacks a nose, and invented a technique that creates energy discs. Or that Chaotzu's an alien because he's really short, really white, and has telekinetic powers. Or that Roshi's an alien because he can become really buff and he invented the Kamehameha.

But in fact the daizenshuu never do claim those things. They don't just label any Earthling with odd traits as a descendant of aliens, only Tenshinhan. This suggests that they've got a good reason to do so, likely because the info came from Toriyama.

I don’t see why this “Three-Eyed Clan” thing should be all that big a deal. Tenshinhan’s still an Earthling, and still a human, he just has alien ancestors somewhere in his bloodline.

[yunzabit]

I think this topic is kinda ironic the way it turned out. I asked a question and three pages later we are at an unrelated point which I asked about 3 months ago. (Not taking any credit, just an observation)

http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... =8&t=12265

[Gaffer Tape]

And Krillin does have a nose... actually he doesn't have a nose but he has nostrils since he can smell. Him not being draw with a nose is the same reason why Chaozu doesn't have one too. It is just a way to show they have small noses, just like when someone draw people with small dots on the place of the eyes.

Um, what? He very clearly does not have a nose or nostrils since the only reason he wins his first major battle in the series is due to the fact that he CANNOT smell! So it's not just that Toriyama took artistic license with a small nose. There's literally dialogue that says, "You have no nose; therefore, you can't smell anything!" Just thought I should point that out. ^_^

[Savage68]

How did Krillin snort a booger without nostrils? o_O

[Gaffer Tape]

Hammerspace, of course!

Alternatively... a wizard did it!

[Senzu_Bean]

He might not even look much like a full-blooded one.

If full-blooded "Three Eye" people still exist out there, in the universe. I personally don't believe they do. In fact I believe they are incorporated in Earth's population just like every weird looking creature like Pilaf.

Um, what?

You can't smell without nostrils and clearly Krillin can smell despite the fact in that particular fight lost his ability to smell.

[Xyex]

How about the fact that it wasn't ever even remotely referenced once during the entire series, even during the arcs where aliens were popping up left and right? Vegeta recognized Piccolo, I'm sure he'd be able to place Ti­en if he were some level of alien too.

No, something not being said isn't the same thing as something being contradicted. Another bit of background info regarding Tenshinhan given in the guidebooks is that he likes gyouza. Is this automatically false because it's not mentioned in the series? Are you really saying that it's illegimate for guidebooks to provide extra background info not found in the series itself? It's hardly an uncommon thing for guidebooks to do. Heck, it's one of the things guidebooks are for in the first place.

I know it's not the same as a contradiction, but you need supporting evidence if the information given is something that fundamentally changes the character in some way. It's not that his supposed alien ancestry automatically false because it's not mentioned in the series, it just lacks basis because it's not even remotely hinted toward during the series. His favorite food is a completely different degree of information. Basic likes and dislikes are just extraneous information with no bearing on a character. A character's ancestry is a fundamental part of them and requires more than a small blurb in an after-the-fact book (and it's constant copying into other media there-after) to have legitimate factual basis.

But what we get is jack diddly squat in the same saga that both Goku and Piccolo are revealed to be aliens. I think that's a pretty telling thing, myself.

Your point about Vegeta is pretty weak. He recognized one kind of alien, therefore he should be able to recognize any kind of alien? That hardly follows. Not to mention that Tenshinhan is supposed to be only a descendant of the Three-Eyed Clan. He might not even look much like a full-blooded one.

Vegeta recognized Piccolo because he's traveled a lot in his working for Freeza. Considering that the Namekians don't exactly seem to travel much the fact that Vegeta recognizes Piccolo as one at all shows he's got a pretty decent knowledge of the races out there. I would think that if there existed a race of three-eyed people he'd know about it.

Manga > Anime > Daizenshuu. Nothing in Manga + Nothing in Anime = Daizenshuu overruled.

How do you figure that the anime automatically overrule the daizenshuu? The first place the "Three-Eyed Clan" info is mentioned is Daizenshuu 4, a guidebook that deals solely with the manga. Toriyama provided lots of information for the book, like the map of the DB Earth and cosmos. It's quite likely he supplied the Three-Eyed Clan info as well. Why does a guide to the manga which we know Toriyama supplied info for necessarily less authoritative than the anime? Though again, "not mentioned" isn't the same thing as "contradicted", so I don't see how the daizenshuu could be "overruled" in this case.

I didn't say that the anime automatically overrules the Daizenshuu. I said that the manga and anime together override the Daizenshuu. Manga comes first, then anime, then whatever the Daizenshuu claim, because they often screw things up or try to smash the anime and manga events together when they don't fit. Maybe Toriyama did provide the information, but part of me doubts it for the reasons mentioned in the section above. There would have been something, somewhere in the manga, or at least in the anime, to indicate this.

Information from secondary sources is always suspect without corroborating evidence from a primary source. This is just common sense. I've never said that lack of corroborating evidence automatically means it's wrong, I'm just saying that you need more than one little blurb in one secondary source (subsequently finding it's way into even more derivative secondary sources) for it to be truly taken as 100% fact. A possibility? Sure. Absolutely canon? Nope.

That would be kind of sad for humanity. It would leave Yamcha, Roshi, and Her­cule as the only representatives of humans in the series. Not exactly the greatest showing. >.>

Well if it makes you feel better, Saiyans are humans, according to Vegeta, and Ginyu considers himself human. The term "human" in DB isn't limited to the people of Earth.

Eh. Ningen seems to be DB's equivalent of "Humanoid" so I don't think they really count.

True. It's based on the fact that he's got three eyes and that he invented techniques that let him grow an extra set of arms or split into multiple people. But then, that'd still be the same as claiming that Krillin's an alien because he's short, lacks a nose, and invented a technique that creates energy discs. Or that Chaotzu's an alien because he's really short, really white, and has telekinetic powers. Or that Roshi's an alien because he can become really buff and he invented the Kamehameha.

But in fact the daizenshuu never do claim those things. They don't just label any Earthling with odd traits as a descendant of aliens, only Tenshinhan. This suggests that they've got a good reason to do so, likely because the info came from Toriyama.

I don’t see why this “Three-Eyed Clan” thing should be all that big a deal. Tenshinhan’s still an Earthling, and still a human, he just has alien ancestors somewhere in his bloodline.

And I don't see why it should be taken as iron clad 100% factual truth when there's nothing, anywhere that even remotely suggests the possibility aside from one blurb in one guide that, while possibly being from Toriyama, could just as easily have come from someone else who just thought it would make Tie­n "cooler" to be part alien.

You can't smell without nostrils and clearly Krillin can smell despite the fact in that particular fight lost his ability to smell.

What makes you think he can smell? The only time in the series he's seen doing so is against Bacterian, and that was a gag.

[Godo]

But what we get is jack diddly squat in the same saga that both Goku and Piccolo are revealed to be aliens. I think that's a pretty telling thing, myself.

Vegeta recognized Piccolo because he's traveled a lot in his working for Freeza. Considering that the Namekians don't exactly seem to travel much the fact that Vegeta recognizes Piccolo as one at all shows he's got a pretty decent knowledge of the races out there. I would think that if there existed a race of three-eyed people he'd know about it.

We know nothing about that Vegeta encountered in space. Let's not forget that planet Namek once had spaceships and advanced technology, thus they could travel around and make themselves a name in the history books.
But then we have Tenshinhan, a descendant of the three eyed tribe. There is nothing that tells us that the tribe wasn't wiped out of extincted ages ago.
Whilst the Daizenshuu had told us this interesting piece of fact, we shouldn't just forget about it just because of that it doesn't seem logical to oneself.
There isn't a real hint to Karin not being just a cat that has an important role or that Popo isn't just a normal Earthling that got the job as Kami's assistant in the manga, but when the Daizenshuu says that they are from the Other World, people swallow it up rather easily.

There would have been something, somewhere in the manga, or at least in the anime, to indicate this.

Well, we have Piccolo that was an alien that grew out his arm and regenerated it, and according to Toriyama, by the time we saw Kami, he had thought out that they were aliens already.
Just in the previous tournament, we had Tenshinhan growing out arms, and in the same arc as we saw Piccolo's abilities, he split up in four.
I think that that iself shows us that Tenshinhan isn't an ordinary human, maybe even there is some alien in him after all.

Information from secondary sources is always suspect without corroborating evidence from a primary source. This is just common sense. I've never said that lack of corroborating evidence automatically means it's wrong, I'm just saying that you need more than one little blurb in one secondary source (subsequently finding it's way into even more derivative secondary sources) for it to be truly taken as 100% fact. A possibility? Sure. Absolutely canon? Nope.

I agree with you here completely, but Tenshinhan being like, 1/100th alien doesn't seem that suspicious.

What makes you think he can smell? The only time in the series he's seen doing so is against Bacterian, and that was a gag.

No, he sniffed the diamond that Bulma had in her panties. I don't think that he would smell something twice if he couldn't smell at all.

[Savage68]

And I don't see why it should be taken as iron clad 100% factual truth when there's nothing, anywhere that even remotely suggests the possibility aside from one blurb in one guide that, while possibly being from Toriyama, could just as easily have come from someone else who just thought it would make Tie­n "cooler" to be part alien.

Because you can't give us anything better.

[Herms]

I know it's not the same as a contradiction, but you need supporting evidence if the information given is something that fundamentally changes the character in some way. It's not that his supposed alien ancestry automatically false because it's not mentioned in the series, it just lacks basis because it's not even remotely hinted toward during the series. His favorite food is a completely different degree of information. Basic likes and dislikes are just extraneous information with no bearing on a character. A character's ancestry is a fundamental part of them and requires more than a small blurb in an after-the-fact book (and it's constant copying into other media there-after) to have legitimate factual basis.

But what we get is jack diddly squat in the same saga that both Goku and Piccolo are revealed to be aliens. I think that's a pretty telling thing, myself.

I don't see how it changes him fundementally. We know right from the series that he's a weirdo with 3 eyes who can grow arms and split into 4 people. What's the big difference between being a 3-eyed weirdo who can do those things "just because", and a 3-eyed weirdo who can do those things because some of his ancestors were aliens?

It might not be mentioned in the series, but then it wasn't really ever relevant to the story, unlike Goku and Piccolo's races. We know Toriyama didn't consider Goku or Piccolo aliens at first, so maybe he didn't think this up until later either, maybe not even until after the series was over. Is it illegitimate to add stuff like this after the fact? I mean, all that info from the SEG on how the Kaio/shin are asexual fruit people and how they get their posts isn't touched on at all in the series, even when it would be relevant (Kaio's death, for instance). It even seems contradicted by the fact that there's a female Kaio in the anime, who Toriyama probably even designed, since he did the others. There's also how the Kaioshin Realm located outside of the big ball making up the afterlife and universe, and revolves around it like a satellit. That's pretty fundemental to its nature, but it's never hinted at in the series, and Toriyama even talks in Daizenshuu 4 about how he essentially tacked it on after the fact to the DB cosmos map he had made earlier for the anime. Toriyama does stuff like this a lot.

Vegeta recognized Piccolo because he's traveled a lot in his working for Freeza. Considering that the Namekians don't exactly seem to travel much the fact that Vegeta recognizes Piccolo as one at all shows he's got a pretty decent knowledge of the races out there. I would think that if there existed a race of three-eyed people he'd know about it.

That's still incredibly weak. Vegeta knows obscure races, therefore he knows all races? Come on.

I didn't say that the anime automatically overrules the Daizenshuu. I said that the manga and anime together override the Daizenshuu. Manga comes first, then anime, then whatever the Daizenshuu claim, because they often screw things up or try to smash the anime and manga events together when they don't fit.

They don't often do that, because only Daizenshuu 7 deals with both the manga and anime, and even it seperates anime-only information throughout the dictionaries that comprise most of its content. It's timeline and some of the "Worldview" stuff at the front does mix the two, I'll give you that. But I don't see why a manga guidebook like Daizenshuu 4 that Toriyama supplied info for comes after anime-only stuff that he generally didn't.

Maybe Toriyama did provide the information, but part of me doubts it for the reasons mentioned in the section above. There would have been something, somewhere in the manga, or at least in the anime, to indicate this.

Again, maybe he didn't think of it until after the series.

Information from secondary sources is always suspect without corroborating evidence from a primary source. This is just common sense. I've never said that lack of corroborating evidence automatically means it's wrong, I'm just saying that you need more than one little blurb in one secondary source (subsequently finding it's way into even more derivative secondary sources) for it to be truly taken as 100% fact. A possibility? Sure. Absolutely canon? Nope.

And I don't see why it should be taken as iron clad 100% factual truth when there's nothing, anywhere that even remotely suggests the possibility aside from one blurb in one guide that, while possibly being from Toriyama, could just as easily have come from someone else who just thought it would make Tie­n "cooler" to be part alien.

Yeah, there's nothing anywhere...except that one official guide...and that other official guide...and that official DVD booklet...and that video game...So no, maybe not 100% iron-clad truth or whatever, but well-supported enough to count as a DB fact for practical purposes. The idea that someone would have added it into simply to make Tenshinhan seem cooler is nonsensical. This isn't Wikipedia we're talking about, this is an official guide put together by a professional staff.

[Piccolo Daimao]

How did Krillin snort a booger without nostrils? o_O

The whole "Kuririn's got no nose" thing was a complete gag.

[Savage68]

I recognized that, which is why I appended the emote to the end of my post. >_________>

[Senzu_Bean]

How did Krillin snort a booger without nostrils? o_O

The whole "Kuririn's got no nose" thing was a complete gag.

Yep, even though the Daizenshuu labeled Krillin as "nostril-less".