Sabat & Schemmel Video Interview

[jjgp1112]

I dislike the dub names as much as the next guy but "laziness" certainly isn't the reason why they kept them. It's not like they'd have to do any actual work to change "Say"an or Tri-beam. And they had no problem ditching Special Beam Cannon or "Kay"oken. Given their comments on staying true to the Japanese version, it seems more likely that they wanted to change the names but didn't want thousands of dub fans wondering why Vegeta is pronouncing Saiyan wrong.

But they wouldn't be pronouncing it "wrong" at all. If they're keeping old errors just to avoid confusion, then they're completely missing the point of doing a new, more accurate dub in the first place.

Yeah, but you're forgetting about precedent. They have to find a way to compromise. "Saiyan" and it's pronunciation is integral with Dragon Ball here in the states. "Super Saiyans" and "Dragon ball Z" are basically synonymous. So they should change stuff that's unimportant, but some of the best known stuff about the dub should be left in.

[Gaffer Tape]

After hearing about the TV broadcast, their mostly accurate but still holding out on some things attitude makes even less sense. If the apparent purpose of the TV version was to revert all their effort back into familiar Z dub terms (like Special Beam Cannons, what have you), then why the hell didn't they make the TV version totally that and the home release totally accurate, pronounciations, names, and all? It makes no sense the way they're doing it now.

[Big Momma]

After hearing about the TV broadcast, their mostly accurate but still holding out on some things attitude makes even less sense. If the apparent purpose of the TV version was to revert all their effort back into familiar Z dub terms (like Special Beam Cannons, what have you), then why the hell didn't they make the TV version totally that and the home release totally accurate, pronounciations, names, and all? It makes no sense the way they're doing it now.

I'm sure the VA's wouldn't want to go in and record every single line that had "TIEN", "Saiyan", and the like twice.

[VegettoEX]

I'm sure the VA's wouldn't want to go in and record every single line that had "TIEN", "Saiyan", and the like twice.

And get paid twice...?

I'm... almost sure they would.

[Gaffer Tape]

Why not? They're already recording other attack names and the theme song and various other line changes twice...

EDIT: And what Mike said...

[Velasa]

And I have to say again, what the hell is going to happen when people watching the TV version get all excited about that, go to buy it, and then the series is drastically different from what they were just basically told would be there? What they want isn't the way it should be, but you can't fault them for expecting to get what they watched and being pissed when half the script is rewritten way beyond editing needs. It just seems like a bad idea to me.... you can't pander to people and then ignore them/tell them what they want is bad all in one turn of the hand.

If what they want is so wrong you won't make it available.... well then maybe you shouldn't have kept encouraging them by changing everything for them on the broadcast version. This doesn't seem like it will end well.

[Gaffer Tape]

I agree. I've already stated that I think the broadcast version is different enough to warrant its own home release.

[Hujio]

Sounds like you had a rough day today.

Nah, just a rough 10+ years of the same thing.

Sounds like he hasn't watched any of FUNimation's dubs apart from DBZ.

While this doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about, what you're saying doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Did GT use the original music? Did both DB and GT pronounce Kamehameha wrong on most occasions? Did GT pronounce Saiyan wrong? If you're gonna make these statements, at least make sure those other dubs did everything I'm complaining about correctly. And if you're going from the standpoint of FUNimation's dubbing of other non-DragonBall series', then that even further validates some of my complaints. Why do other series, for the most part, get accurate scripts, correct pronunciations, and none of the shove-it-down-my-throat bullshit? For once, why not just flat-out do it correctly. There was a blank-slate, and they didn't have to acknowledge any of the previous dub, but they did anyway. They saved One Piece from 4Kids, but unfortunately they can't save DragonBall Z from themselves.

I dislike the dub names as much as the next guy but "laziness" certainly isn't the reason why they kept them. It's not like they'd have to do any actual work to change "Say"an or Tri-beam.

Is that not the definition of "laziness"? If it would have taken very little effort to change these things, how is it not laziness?

Given their comments on staying true to the Japanese version, it seems more likely that they wanted to change the names but didn't want thousands of dub fans wondering why Vegeta is pronouncing Saiyan wrong.

And if all the dub fans complained about this "mispronunciation", which is actually the correct pronunciation, then FUNimation would have to finally admit they've been pronouncing it wrong all these years. In the end, they made the decision to keep the "majority" happy. Why admit you failed, right? But wait, didn't they basically say that in the video interview? I mean, Schemmel didn't like all these changes the higher-ups made back in the day, so why not correct all these things?

But they wouldn't be pronouncing it "wrong" at all. If they're keeping old errors just to avoid confusion, then they're completely missing the point of doing a new, more accurate dub in the first place.

Yeah, but you're forgetting about precedent. They have to find a way to compromise. "Saiyan" and it's pronunciation is integral with Dragon Ball here in the states. "Super Saiyans" and "Dragon ball Z" are basically synonymous. So they should change stuff that's unimportant, but some of the best known stuff about the dub should be left in.

Precedent? The precedent gets thrown out the window once you start changing things. And it doesn't help that the precedent was all over the place at times. But why not make a new precedent that shows they're going to do things correctly, and correct their previous mistakes? Wouldn't it help sell the series, showing that they're willing to throw out everything that was wrong and just do it right? It would definitely show the fans that they care and back-up some of this interview material they're throwing out there. It would also probably draw a lot of people into the series, and create a large marketing point they could use to their advantage.

After hearing about the TV broadcast, their mostly accurate but still holding out on some things attitude makes even less sense. If the apparent purpose of the TV version was to revert all their effort back into familiar Z dub terms (like Special Beam Cannons, what have you), then why the hell didn't they make the TV version totally that and the home release totally accurate, pronunciations, names, and all? It makes no sense the way they're doing it now.

you can't pander to people and then ignore them/tell them what they want is bad all in one turn of the hand.

Thank you! I love it when people read my mind, because this is where I wanted to take it. I have a feeling this is not going to end well. I'll bite my tongue, but so far they're seemingly digging a pretty big hole for themselves. Just like the old adage says, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." And now I have to sit back and watch it all over again. Yay...

[JulieYBM]

I'm sure the VA's wouldn't want to go in and record every single line that had "TIEN", "Saiyan", and the like twice.

And get paid twice...?

I'm... almost sure they would.

Actually, I believe that only applies to union or at least Ocean Group. FUNimation pays by the hour, not the word.


Even still, come on guys...go all the way. Tenshinhan, 'Saiyan', 'Kiko-Hô', etc.

[Adamant]

And if you're going from the standpoint of FUNimation's dubbing of other non-DragonBall series', then that even further validates some of my complaints. Why do other series, for the most part, get accurate scripts, correct pronunciations, and none of the shove-it-down-my-throat bullshit? For once, why not just flat-out do it correctly. There was a blank-slate, and they didn't have to acknowledge any of the previous dub, but they did anyway. They saved One Piece from 4Kids, but unfortunately they can't save DragonBall Z from themselves.

Not only that, but with One Piece, they even went on record saying that, while Cartoon Network were forcing them to use various crap 4Kids had come up with (Zolo, Grand Compass, and whatnot), they were working their asses off to make sure the DVD releases would be as devoid of incorrect TV dub terms as humanly possible. The TV dub needed to make sacrifices to avoid confusing dubbies, but with the DVD dub they were going all out saying "to hell with convention, we're making sure One Piece is dubbed right this time".

So why treat Kai differently, again?

[Greenman]

I dislike the dub names as much as the next guy but "laziness" certainly isn't the reason why they kept them. It's not like they'd have to do any actual work to change "Say"an or Tri-beam.

Is that not the definition of "laziness"? If it would have taken very little effort to change these things, how is it not laziness?

Well, you go on to quote the rest of my post where I explain why I think the lack of changes isn't due to laziness. Just because something is easy to do, doesn't automatically mean someone didn't do it out of laziness.

Given their comments on staying true to the Japanese version, it seems more likely that they wanted to change the names but didn't want thousands of dub fans wondering why Vegeta is pronouncing Saiyan wrong.

And if all the dub fans complained about this "mispronunciation", which is actually the correct pronunciation, then FUNimation would have to finally admit they've been pronouncing it wrong all these years. In the end, they made the decision to keep the "majority" happy. Why admit you failed, right? But wait, didn't they basically say that in the video interview? I mean, Schemmel didn't like all these changes the higher-ups made back in the day, so why not correct all these things?

Yep, FUNimation wanted to make the "majority" happy. I don't agree with it. I wish they had fixed the names.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

While this doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about, what you're saying doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Did GT use the original music? Did both DB and GT pronounce Kamehameha wrong on most occasions? Did GT pronounce Saiyan wrong? If you're gonna make these statements, at least make sure those other dubs did everything I'm complaining about correctly. And if you're going from the standpoint of FUNimation's dubbing of other non-DragonBall series', then that even further validates some of my complaints. Why do other series, for the most part, get accurate scripts, correct pronunciations, and none of the shove-it-down-my-throat bullshit? For once, why not just flat-out do it correctly. There was a blank-slate, and they didn't have to acknowledge any of the previous dub, but they did anyway. They saved One Piece from 4Kids, but unfortunately they can't save DragonBall Z from themselves.

It's because FUNimation markets DB as a whole differently to the way they market their other series. FUNimation markets DB to a more mainstream audience (which are primarily dub fans) and markets their other shows like "Shuffle" and "Big Windup" to a more niche audience.

[Brakus]

It's because FUNimation markets DB as a whole differently to the way they market their other series. FUNimation markets DB to a more mainstream audience (which are primarily dub fans) and markets their other shows like "Shuffle" and "Big Windup" to a more niche audience.

And yet from what I've read, sales of Shuffle far outsold Big Windup!, even though IMO the latter show is the better show. Turns out the niche audience wants more fanservice and pretty girls than a character-building sports anime show. Then again, sports anime has almost NEVER done well in the States; otherwise we would have had that Hajime No Ippo thinpack/boxset years ago. I love me some Touch, Ippo, and Big Windup!, though.

Nonetheless, Dragon Ball has always been one of FUNi's "tentpole" shows that holds up the rest of their library. Of course they're going to market it more mainstream, and yet we *still* get things like the Dragon Box. Here's hoping they continue releasing those.

[Xyex]

But they wouldn't be pronouncing it "wrong" at all.

This depends entirely on your point of view. What is wrong to you is not wrong to the vast majority of DBZ fans, who are fans of the dub. And I realized something, skimming through this thread just now. Something that completely explains... well the entire sub/Z dub/Kai dub debating quite simply, and something that I think even the sub fans would get and understand here.

It's like this. I've seen several people, EX and Kaboom as prime examples, refer to the inclusion of the English dub of Z as a novelty item. Something neat to check out, but something they're not really interested. What the majority of this board needs to realize is that this stance is the minority. The majority of Z fans have the reverse viewpoint. The inclusion of the JP version of the series is the novelty. Something neat to check out, but something they're not really interested in. I think until more people realize this, and actually accept it, instead of going "Grrr, you're wrong! How could you like something I don't? My opinion is right!" whenever someone mentions liking the dub, we're going to continue having arguments rather than debates on the matter.

There was something I was going to post in the Freeza replacement thread earlier, but it got locked before I could, so I'll post it here since it's still applicable. Nothing the dub does or does not do has any effect on the original JP version. No matter who FUNi casts for a character, no matter how bad or wrong you think a voice, a line, or a music track is, the original Z is still there. Nozawa still voices Goku, Gohan, and Goten, Spirit vs. Spirit still plays when Gohan goes SSJ2, and Goku still endlessly repeats "Vegeta, fuse with me!" to convince Vegeta to fuse with him. The show remains untouched and completely accessible in the format you like.

The same, however, is not true with the dub. When the English dub is changed it is actually a change. No matter what changes happen in the dub the JP version remains untouched, but every change to the dub alters the dub. It is no longer the same thing it was before. What's more, every change is retro-active, replacing that which came before it. The new dub replaces the old dub. We saw this most prominently with the FUNi cast redubbing Seasons 1 and 2.

Velasa makes a good example at this point. I know for a fact that she does not like the FUNi cast, she greatly prefers the Ocean voices. In this instance it's not so much about the lines but about it being the voices. Well, the same thing happens with the FUNi cast and the changing of lines, too. In those instances it's not the voices, it's the content. Part of it is nostalgia, yes, but not all of it. It really comes down to the exact same thing as with sub fans. To the vast majority of Z fans the dub is Dragonball. How many of you sub fans would have liked it if the JP version of Kai did the exact same thing as the English dub is doing?

Changed the (major) voices you liked, the lines you liked, and so forth. No matter if Toei thought it was an improvement over the original, people wouldn't like it. People already don't like it just with the few small changes that are included in JP Kai. Imagine the reaction if Japan had recast Freeza in reverse fashion to FUNi, finding the JP equivalent to Young to take over the role.

The replacement thing isn't as large of an issue with Kai as it's, effectively, a new series. Sorta. But the Kai voice replacements will undoubtedly carry over to all other material yet to be voiced. Which is more video games and, if we're lucky, the Jump special. So while it isn't retro-active it's still changing the future. Sub fans say this is a good thing, because now it's more like their version, but the problem with that is... dub fans don't want their version. If they did, they'd watch it subbed, and that's something a lot of sub fans still haven't learned.

I'll be blunt, the majority of sub/dub debates I see around here go a lot like this:

Person A likes Thing A.
Person B likes Thing B.
Person A thinks that's fine, Person B can like what they want and they'll do the same.
Person B thinks Person A needs to be educated and explains to Person A why Thing B is superior to Thing A.
Person A says they disagree and explains what they like about Thing A over Thing B.
Person B ignores Person A's points and insults them for liking Thing A over Thing B because Thing B is clearly the superior product, and they have the most irrefutable proof of all: They think so.

Rinse and repeat.

In every thread.

I've got a lot more I could say, but I don't want to turn into Kunzait here god forbid! XP so I'll stop now. I just think the main thing people need to realize, on both sides (though far more on the sub side) is that their opinion is not fact, that just because they like or dislike something doesn't mean that something is inherently better or worse than something else, and that other people actually do have differing opinions than them that are just as valid.

[penguintruth]

Except that it's pretty obvious even many dub fans want to see Freeza get a new voice and I don't read that many complaints about the changes they made for Gohan and Bulma.

Also, generally, an anime dub is said to be better when it alligns itself closely to the Japanese version. The argument goes "Well, the manga is the real source", but the Japanese version of the TV series is the original vision of it animated. Creative license, as I said in the Freeza thread, is nice, but not at the expense of the established vision.

And since Funimation seems to agree with this with some of their changes, your argument doesn't have as much validity as you think. To say, What they do won't affect the Japanese track" is the same as saying, "If you don't like the English dub, just watch the Japanese version". This is an irrelevant argument.

Popular or not, the vision of DBZ by Funimation for the past decade was the wrong one. Let the market bear whether staying closer to the intent of the original production was a good decision.

[Kaboom]

fans say this is a good thing, because now it's more like their version,

Correction: Because it's now the way the dub should be, and that means closer or as close as possible to the original material. A good dub is more of a "translation" than an "adaptation."

but the problem with that is... dub fans don't want their version.

If they actually don't want a better-made dub, then that's their problem. The product and those behind it shouldn't be dragged down for their sakes.

[Gaffer Tape]

I have quite a hard time getting behind that post, for a number of reasons. First of all, yes, sub fans do know that the Japanese version is the novelty item. If you don't think that fact has been shoved down our throats in every release for the past ten years, then you obviously have not been paying attention. It's one of the reasons the DBoxes are such a godsend. Every release up to this point has catered to dub fans. The Dboxes are the only release that has catered to us and treated the original version as something that stands up on its own.

Second, what's wrong is wrong. That's not subjective. If the dub pronounces "Saiyan" as "Seiyan" that's not debatable. Regardless of whether you like it or not, or if a majority of fans in a certain region believe it to be right or believe the original version to be a "novelty item", that doesn't mean that it is correct.

Third, I have a hard time feeling sorry for dub fans that their version is constantly being revised. That's partly because the Kai dub changes nothing in terms of the most recent Z dub. It's still there, Linda Young is still Freeza, Stephanie Nadolny is still Gohan. That's just like the Japanese version, where Kai is a wholly different beast than Z. But I mainly have a hard time seeing this as a valid argument because, well, it's what dub fans want! Every time up til now that FUNi has decided to "improve" their dub, dub fans have almost entirely been behind it. "Oh? You're going to redub with the 'voices we love'? Yay!!!" "Oh, you're going to redub season 3 so that the nostalgia I love is gone? But it's better right? Wheeeee!" "Oh, you're going to replace Dale Kelley's lines with Kyle Hebert, and Dale Kelley with Brice Armstrong? Well, I like them better, so it's okay! Yahooo!" "Wait, what? You're changing Gohan?! BOOOOOOO!" Hmm, that's odd. The reason the original version never changes is because... no one ever changes it, not because of some staunch crusade of sub fans to change the dub version. While dub fans seem to (mostly) be more than happy to see FUNimation go back and constantly tinker, sub fans don't want our version of the show touched ever. So I'm not sure why you're bitching at sub fans over this. It's precious FUNimation that keeps screwing around. Oh, but when I have to see dub credits and title cards, I certainly don't feel like my version is being left untouched. Again, your crowd is being catered to, not mine, so I don't see what you're complaining about.

"How many of you sub fans would have liked it if the JP version of Kai did the exact same thing as the English dub is doing?" Um, have you seen the Japanese version of Kai? New musical score, replaced actors... seems like pretty much the same thing to me.

[TripleRach]

But the Kai voice replacements will undoubtedly carry over to all other material yet to be voiced. Which is more video games and, if we're lucky, the Jump special. So while it isn't retro-active it's still changing the future. Sub fans say this is a good thing, because now it's more like their version, but the problem with that is... dub fans don't want their version. If they did, they'd watch it subbed, and that's something a lot of sub fans still haven't learned.

Haven't some of the dub actor changes already taken place in video games prior to Kai? Like Cell and Chaozu?

Either way, even if it changes the future, it doesn't change the past. It's not like all the old DVDs and games have suddenly disintegrated. Your version still exists if you want it. You don't have to buy or watch the Kai dub if you don't want it.

[jjgp1112]

fans say this is a good thing, because now it's more like their version,

Correction: Because it's now the way the dub should be, and that means closer or as close as possible to the original material. A good dub is more of a "translation" than an "adaptation."

I think what he's trying to say is, why should that affect your enjoyment at all? "What I've been enjoying for the past 10 years isn't like some version of the show that I've never watched before and probably never will? FUCK THIS!"

[Kaboom]

fans say this is a good thing, because now it's more like their version,

Correction: Because it's now the way the dub should be, and that means closer or as close as possible to the original material. A good dub is more of a "translation" than an "adaptation."

I think what he's trying to say is, why should that affect your enjoyment at all? "What I've been enjoying for the past 10 years isn't like some version of the show that I've never watched before and probably never will? FUCK THIS!"

I'm... not qute sure what you're trying to convey here.

If you're attempting to suggest that I shouldn't care about the dub since I don't prefer it anyway... Uh, not so. I've been waiting a long time for a DragonBall dub like Kai's because I want to be able to enjoy the show in a faithfully-handled manner in my native language. Even if it's mostly as a novelty, it's still extremely satisfying. As it stands now, I can actually enjoy Kai in English just as much as I do in its original Japanese, and that standpoint is most likely only going to be further cemented by the new Freeza and new Ginyu Force and the like.

I do care about and want to watch the English version, which is why I'm overjoyed to see it finally being treated well. And it's also why I don't think excuses should be made for the prior mistakes with it. This "second chance" with Kai should be charged into headfirst with all boldness and enthusiasm, leaving the past behind, and thankfully that seems to be FUNi's attitude with it so far.