Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by Questrider » Mon May 24, 2010 4:06 pm

@troy-
See, if I would have heard Vegeta say that to Piccolo, I would have been laughing my ass off. :lol:

Now, if I were to go home and pull up that scene on my orange brick set and watched that scene in Japanese, would I see the line you mentioned in subtitles?
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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by theoriginalbilis » Mon May 24, 2010 4:50 pm

My vote goes for the Dragon Boxes in terms of "bang for your buck" quality and presentation.

Anyway, in regards to the DBZ dub, I'm used to inconsistent voice acting due to growing up watching so many 80s-90s anime dubs. So the majority of the voice acting didn't bug me too much, even though I do prefer the Japanese version overall.

The biggest problem with FUNi's DBZ dub is the dialogue. They basically rewrote a good deal of the dialogue to make it sound "hip" and "current", even adding in extra jokes or dialogue that aren't in the original. Even bits of plot/character development were erased or changed to something different. Not all of it was bad IMO, but it was definitely unnecessary. Watch a dubbed episode with the Japanese subtitles on, it'll blow your mind... I mean, even if the Japanese voice actors weren't always spot on, the dialogue was always accurate to the original manga.

Luckily, the Z Kai dub is rectifying most of this, and is really making a good conscious effort to stick to the original translation.
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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon May 24, 2010 4:58 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:For the scene you're talking about Kaboom, I've tried many times, but I can't think of a single way to get the general dialogue to match the mouth flaps without completely mangling the English language.
With modern dubbing techniques and audio adjustments, it's not impossible. You're just not trying hard enough.

ORIGINAL FUNIMATION DUB: "Alright Goku! You can do it! Go ahead and get stronger!" = 15 syllables
POSSIBLE TRANSLATION ADAPTATION #1: "They're even stronger than Freeza now. You scared... or excited?" = 15 syllables
POSSIBLE TRANSLATION ADAPTATION #2: "Goku, these bad guys are stronger than Freeza now. You scared... or excited?" = 18 syllables

ORIGINAL FUNIMATION DUB: "You got it!" = 3 syllables
POSSIBLE TRANSLATION ADAPTATION #1: "Well [or 'heh'], both!" = 2 syllables
POSSIBLE TRANSLATION ADAPTATION #2: "Kinda both!" = 3 syllables
POSSIBLE TRANSLATION ADAPTATION #3: "Honestly? Both!" = 4 syllables

Now obviously I don't have the footage in front of me to see if there are mid-sentence flaps and pauses to work around, but it's a matter of how much effort you want to put into it.
That's actually the main problem. When I was watching the scene, I thought that in theory, you'd be able to shorten it, but thanks to mid-sentence stops, etc, it would sound incredibly awkward.
The Tori-bot wrote:
Questrider wrote:What kind mistakes do they make in the translation? Is it only minor things here and there?
Are there a few specific cases worth mentioning where they completely botched the job?
Find me a line in the dub that's identical to the Japanese line, and you win a cookie. Most of the time it seemed as if the writers just took a glance at the original dialogue, then changed it as much as they could while keeping the plot intact. They've gotten better (the video games tend to use the original scripts), but the majority of it is completely off.

If you want the English voice actors, plus correctly-translated dialogue, look no further than Dragon Ball (Z) Kai. 90% of the time the dialogue is pretty much dead-on, and the quality of the acting is a little better overall. Plus, it's been trimmed down so the pacing is much quicker and less dragged-out. I'd definitely recommend picking it up.
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theoriginalbilis wrote:Watch a dubbed episode with the Japanese subtitles on, it'll blow your mind...
My mind has yet to be blown outside of a few moments. I've watched every single Z episode dubbed with the the JP subs.
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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by Adamant » Mon May 24, 2010 5:04 pm

Assuming the mid-sentence stop is where I guess it is, wouldn't "These bad guys... they're stronger than Freeza! You scared or excited?" work?
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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by GizmoKSX » Mon May 24, 2010 5:14 pm

The Tori-bot wrote: Find me a line in the dub that's identical to the Japanese line, and you win a cookie.
Wasn't the scene in the Cell arc where Piccolo fused with Kami noteworthy for being very accurate to the original?
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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon May 24, 2010 5:15 pm

*pops in Season 5, disc 2*

Alright, here's the exact dialogue, complete with mouth flap pauses:

Krillin: Hey...is it true that you guys will be gone.. for just one day? That's cool! Train hard...we'll find Cell!
Goku: It's a deal!

Japanese:

Krillin: Now that an enemy even more incredible than frieza has appeared, are you scared? Or instead, are you excited?
Goku: Both

And while I'm at it:

Krillin: You're back!
Goku: Yeah! So when do we eat?!
Krillin: Goku, you nut! You're back to normal, alright!

JP:
Krillin: You're all better then?
Goku: Yeah. My stomach's on empty, though.
Krillin: Your stomach? That's just like you, Goku! You really are better, huh?
Last edited by jjgp1112 on Mon May 24, 2010 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by Hujio » Mon May 24, 2010 5:22 pm

Which do I prefer; Japanese or English? Let me put it this way. If there was no English dub included on a FUNimation release of DragonBall, I probably wouldn't even notice. The first thing I do when I pop in a DVD is switch all the language settings. Although, once I go to change the settings, I'd probably notice then, but you know what I mean.

Until the Dragon Boxes and (Z) Kai came out, it had been quite some time since I had watched anything with the English dub. If other people like it themselves, that's fine by me. I just have no interest in it, nor will I probably ever. But when those people are so misinformed by the dub that I can't even have a conversation with them about simple aspects of the series, that's where I draw the line.

One of the most horrifying things I ever did with the Dragon Boxes was turn on the subtitles while listening to the English dub. If you're looking for accuracy, don't do this. Some things will just blow your mind. And it's sad, really. It's just sad...

So, Dragon Boxes or Orange Bricks? Umm... I'd love to just convince you to get the Dragon Boxes, but it really comes down to how much you care, and I'm not implying that you don't care about DragonBall. What I mean is, do you care if the show is cropped? Do you care if it isn't true to the original? Do you care about having correct dialogue? If you care about those things, then you want the Dragon Boxes. If you don't care about those things, and there's nothing wrong if you don't (they're so damn cheap), then the Orange Bricks are for you.

Warning, you may be educated by this part:

Would I personally recommend to anyone to buy the Orange Bricks? Absolutely not! But I can understand why someone might really like them. Unfortunately, the reason most fans do like them is because they haven't educated themselves about the release. That, or like I said, they know about the flaws, but it doesn't bother them because they're so damn cheap. Is that wrong? Well, it depends on who you ask. It's the same reason why most people in the U.S. have no idea how our government works, or how a car works, or for that matter, how DVDs work.

The issue is, consumers, for the most part, are very trusting with the products they're buying. Most will buy anything you put in front of them without putting much thought into it, simply because it's there and they like it. They trust that whoever manufactured or produced it did everything in their power to make that the best possible product. And if it's fairly inexpensive, compared to other similar products, they'll buy it. It's only the few minority that actually research everything they possibly can about such products, and base their decision to purchase said product by educating themselves about what's good and what's bad. Unfortunately, most companies are well aware that this is the case, so they will often not put as much time and money into something as they could (i.e. the Orange Bricks and the original English dub). And more often than not, it isn't that they're trying to be deceitful, but more so that they're trying to save money.

It isn't until something drastic happens (i.e. when it affects the majority of non-educated consumers), that companies will really try to do anything about such flaws or issues. It's why products are recalled, or why there was such a backlash with the Toyota car accelerators recently. So, while some fans complained about the Orange Bricks, most people just went out and bought millions of them because they didn't educate themselves about them. So in a way, it's because most people don't care about educating themselves. And honestly, you can't blame them half the time, because that takes a lot of time and effort. That's why we go to people that have specialized jobs, like a car mechanic, a electrician, or a plumber. It's the same reason why you should read a couple "good" reviews before you buy things. Just think of the reviewer as the specialist in this case.

It's actually one main reason why much of our government even exists; to protect the consumer and the general populous. They don't always do the best job, but that's why everyone should at least try to educate themselves about certain things. Now, I realize we're just talking about DVDs here, but if you care about your money, it's still worth researching. Especially since there are so many releases available.

-- RANT ENDS --

OK, so I went a little overboard with all that, but as you can see, more often than not it's just about being education. Of course, having the money to actually buy something helps. But when it's about purchasing something like a DVD boxset, it should be really easy to do some research about it on the internet.

EDIT:
jjgp1112 wrote:Japanese:
Krillin: Now that an enemy even more incredible than frieza has appeared, are you scared? Or instead, are you excited?
Goku: Both
That can't be exactly what the subtitles say. Steve never uses "Frieza" in the subtitles.
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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by Big Momma » Mon May 24, 2010 5:30 pm

Hujio wrote:What I mean is, do you care if the show is cropped? Do you care if it isn't true to the original? Do you care about having correct dialogue? If you care about those things, then you want the Dragon Boxes.
It may even come down to just the first question, since the original Japanese is on the Bricks. (Or is there a different dub on the boxes as opposed to the sets?)
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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon May 24, 2010 5:46 pm

And for extra cookies:

Goku: KAMICCOLO!
*Piccolo shrugs*
Goku: What? Did I say something wrong?
Piccolo: Look, I've been through some changes, but my name is still Piccolo, and don't forget it.
Goku: Sure thing, no problem!
Piccolo: Well, what?
Goku: Uh...hey, Piccolo. There's no way we can defeat a power like Cell in a fight right now. That's why I've decided to start training again. And I know a place where we can get a year of training in a day.
Yamcha: Where is that?
Piccolo: So it's back to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. I see. No one has ever been able to stay there for more than a year - no one. It might be more than you can handle.
Goku: Yeah, that's why I'm taking Trunks and Vegeta with me! Surely one of us should be able to do it!
Piccolo: Then go, quickly! Cell is getting stronger everyday, and time's in short supply. If we let Cell absorb 17, we're finished for sure.

JP:
Goku: Kamiccolo-sama!
*Piccolo shrugs*
Goku: What?
Piccolo: Don't merge the names together. My base is mostly Piccolo, so just call me that.
Goku: Oh really? Well, Piccolo...
Piccolo: What is it?
Goku: The way I am now, there ain't no way I can win against the Artificial Humans or this Cell guy. So I'm taking Gohan with me, and we're going to train. To the place where we can train for a whole year in just one day.
Yamcha: What's that?
Piccolo: You want to go the Room of Spirit & Time, then? I see now. However, there hasn't been anyone who was able to spend an entire year in there. It was all you could do to spend a month in there so long ago.
Goku: I'm taking Trunks and Vegeta with me. They're sure to be able to take it.
Piccolo: In that case, hurry, Goku. Cell is rapidly killing people, and rapidly getting stronger. If he combines his power with #17 and becomes his perfect form on us, there's going to be trouble.
Hujio wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:Japanese:
Krillin: Now that an enemy even more incredible than frieza has appeared, are you scared? Or instead, are you excited?
Goku: Both
That can't be exactly what the subtitles say. Steve never uses "Frieza" in the subtitles.
For the love of God, you can't be serious. I spelled it that way out of habit, and I forgot to capitalize it. Matter of fact:

Image
Last edited by jjgp1112 on Mon May 24, 2010 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by penguintruth » Mon May 24, 2010 5:57 pm

Here's something that annoyed the hell out of me about the English dub: the Super Saiyan 2 Gohan transformation scene. Here's my comparison:

JP

(No. 16's head talks to Gohan)

(Silence falls over the battlefield)
No. 16: Talking things out doesn't work againt some opponents. Let your angry spirit be free. I understand your feelings, but there is no need to hold back any longer.
Cell (walking over): That's good advice, but we're doing this my way.
No. 16: Gohan, protect nature and the animals I loved so much. Please.
(Cell stomps No. 16's head, destroying it)
(Still silence, as we hear 16's battery die)
Cell (looking down): Stay out of my business, you useless piece of junk.
(music starts now, with a chirping of birds, the song "Day of Destiny", sung by Kageyama Hironobu)
*Gohan explodes with rage, transforming into SSJ2)


ENG

(No. 16's head talks to Gohan)

(Music plays)
No. 16: There are those who words alone will not reach. Cell is such a being. I know how you feel, Gohan. You are gentle. You do not like to hurt. I know, because I, too, have learned these feelings. But it is because you cherish life that you must protect it.
Cell (walking over): This sentimental downpour is killing me. It's so nice of you to help, 16, but I plan on doing this my way.
No. 16: Please, drop your restraints. Protect the life I loved. You have the strength, my scanners sensed it. Just let it go.
(Cell stomps No. 16's head, destroying it)
(Electronica music continues to play as we hear 16's battery die)
Cell (looking down): Yet another fighter you could have saved.
(the same music plays, but birds chirp)
Gohan (speaking when there were no lines for him in the original at this point): 16, you love life. You gave everything up to save it. And you were just an android. I let you die. I can't do that! I won't watch anymore! I feel it slipping! AND I WON'T WATCH THIS ANYMORE!
(Gohan explodes with rage, transforming into SSJ2, different electronica playing)

A lot of redundant bullshit in the dub scene.
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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by Hujio » Mon May 24, 2010 6:12 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Hujio wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:Japanese:
Krillin: Now that an enemy even more incredible than frieza has appeared, are you scared? Or instead, are you excited?
Goku: Both
That can't be exactly what the subtitles say. Steve never uses "Frieza" in the subtitles.
For the love of God, you can't be serious. I spelled it that way out of habit, and I forgot to capitalize it.
I'm completely serious. But that's fine if you did it out of habit. I figured you had changed it on purpose, since not capitalizing the name is one way to get around the filter. And since it's a quote, I figured you would want to correctly quote it, rather than change it, since then it isn't actually a quote. So anyway, carry on.
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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by TonyTheTiger » Mon May 24, 2010 6:15 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Furthermore, it's only Americans and their Family Guy lip-sync atrocities that demand we have nearly-invisible, single-frame movements that attempt to match each and every position of the mouth -- which is unrealistic. Watch yourself in the mirror when you speak. Your mouth does not hit distinct positions with each little syllable you spurt out, even if you have perfect diction. You'll be in-between phases. The Japanese seem to understand that with their lip-flap dubbing, even in productions like Akira that went out of their way to have the mouth movements look accurate to the (Japanese) pronunciations.
Just want to point out that western animation does that because the animation is done after the actors record their lines so they have the luxury of animating to the actors rather than the actors performing to the animation. Usually in America the actors will perform what's essentially a radio drama and the animation is adapted to suit it. It works the opposite way in Japan where all the animation is done first so the animators pretty much have no choice but to be minimalists with the mouth flaps. It's also why even in Japanese tracks of various anime the mouth flaps don't always match what's being said.

Also, the mouth flaps are not the only consideration. Western animation usually has more unique frames of animation than a typical anime. So while minimalist mouth flaps would work in a (random numbers to follow) 10,000 cel episode of Pokemon, it would look really awkward in a 20,000 cel episode of, say, X-Men Evolution since animation is relative.
Last edited by TonyTheTiger on Mon May 24, 2010 6:31 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by rereboy » Mon May 24, 2010 6:17 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:snip
Although mostly correct, the dub does leave out the information that Goku actually spent a month there. Its not crucial but its nice to know that.

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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon May 24, 2010 6:22 pm

rereboy wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:snip
Although mostly correct, the dub does leave out the information that Goku actually spent a month there. Its not crucial but its nice to know that.
It's not really necessary, and besides, later on when him and Gohan are in the chamber, he says "Go look out there. Then you'll understand why I couldn't even last a month in here when I was a kid." in the dub.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by DemonRin » Mon May 24, 2010 6:54 pm

penguintruth wrote:Snip if Truth about the Dub butchering Gohan's SS2 Transformation
Couldn't have said it better myself.

Also, is it just me or did the dub writers hate Vegeta's character to the point where they just gave him a complete new one?

Vegeta is SUPPOSED to be a ruthless bastard who believes himself to be "Elite" and keeps up with this belief to the point where he KILLS Nappa for losing to a little "Low Class" weakling like Son.

Instead, while Vegeta is supposed to be telling Son how weak and Low-Class he is and how Super-Elite Vegeta is gonna give him a Super-Elite ASSKICKING, the Dub has him INSTEAD ask Son to FUCKING JOIN HIM! No doubt this was in aid of setting up Son's "Sorry, but I don't think being your partner has much Job security" joke... (NOTE: Not Even Funny)

Then they changed his death speech to blame his jackassery entirely on Freeza... it was seriously as if they were trying to replace Vegeta's character entirely.
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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by Metalwario64 » Mon May 24, 2010 7:50 pm

What makes it even worse, is that it's terribly inconsistent. During the "Ultimate Uncut" dub, in an effort to remove a few ridiculously stupid lines such as "Nappa's worm problem", they actually translated those somewhat accurately with Vegeta talking about wanting to "punish Kakarrot for being a traitor", but then they go and reuse old lines such as the "Join me Kakarrot!" speech, which makes his character incredibly inconsistent.
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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by B » Mon May 24, 2010 8:12 pm

penguintruth wrote:No. 16: There are those who words alone will not reach.
Is this even proper English? "Those who words alone will not reach." It sounds like he's calling people words. Are we sure this is what's said, Penguintruth?
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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by Cipher » Mon May 24, 2010 8:35 pm

B wrote:
penguintruth wrote:No. 16: There are those who words alone will not reach.
Is this even proper English? "Those who words alone will not reach." It sounds like he's calling people words. Are we sure this is what's said, Penguintruth?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with that sentence, grammar-wise.

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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by TonyTheTiger » Mon May 24, 2010 10:05 pm

I actually like that line. It is proper English and it does represent something Gohan would take to heart being that he is more of a classic superhero personality type than Goku. Same for the rewritten scene when Goku was trying to convince Vegeta to fuse. "Our old race is dead. Let's protect our new one!" or something like that. I like that more than the Japanese which was a pretty bland "we need more power...blah blah blah."

I'm generally less concerned with accuracy as I am quality. Like a lot of people have been saying, a lot of the new lines are awkward in some way, either the dialogue itself or its placement. Gohan's monologue before transforming was a perfect example of really bad use of dialogue where there clearly was not meant to be any. If FUNimation had more consistent writers then the misses wouldn't outnumber the hits.

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Re: Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon May 24, 2010 10:52 pm

TonyTheTiger wrote:I'm generally less concerned with accuracy as I am quality. Like a lot of people have been saying, a lot of the new lines are awkward in some way, either the dialogue itself or its placement. Gohan's monologue before transforming was a perfect example of really bad use of dialogue where there clearly was not meant to be any. If FUNimation had more consistent writers then the misses wouldn't outnumber the hits.
Interesting, because, in terms of works of fiction, I am generally the opposite. I prefer accuracy over quality. Sure, I'd prefer quite a bit of quality to get into the work, but, if there's a slip-up, I'd rather it be preserved than "fixed." If someone wants to improve something or make a new spin on things in a separate remake or something, that's fine. That's why I'm all for fixing animation goofs in Kai, and I was totally okay with anime Trunks not mentioned #s 19 and 20. But if they fixed those animation goofs in Z or changed the manga line so that #s 19 and 20 weren't mentioned, then I'd be pissed. But I believe that a dub should be a straight adaptation, so, for the most part, it should stay as accurate as possible, within reason.
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