Can Vegeta go SSJ2?

[rereboy]

Krillin would never succeed in holding 2nd form Cell down with his attacks, so its clear that Tenshinhan is stronger.

Actually, that just proves that the Kikoho is one hell of a attack that often times can be suicidal in use.

Unless you meant to say that the Kikoho actually manages to shoot a blast 500 times stronger than the user (or more), Krillin would never be able to do it, even with kikoho.

[MR.Mark]

Well since no one is suicidal enough besides Tenshinhan to master it, we'll never know for sure. The point is that the Kikoho, or in this case Shin-Kikoho is not an attack to measure one's strength from. If it was, you would be suggesting that Tenshinhan was anywhere near a match for 2nd form Cell, which is ludicrous. This is the same guy who not to long ago got his ass handed to him with ease by #17. Never mind that, I'd be shocked if Ten could beat Ginyu by that point.

Had Son Goku not showed up to save his ass, Ten would of again, died using his last resort attack. A mighty attack that only managed to push Cell...PUSH him. That alone shows how outclassed Ten was at this point in the story, pushing Cell afew times (in the manga) and almost dieing for it, not very impressive. Nor is it a good argument for how he stacks up against Kurirn in strength.

[rereboy]

You are not understanding what I`m trying to say... Even if Krillin had the Kikoho, I don`t think that he, with his level of power, would be able to keep 2nd form Cell immobilized. But Tenshinhan was able to.

Besides that, Tenshinhan was much stronger than Krillin when he died. He then spent 260 days (I think) training on Kaio`s place under 10 Gs gravity (Goku only spent 158 days there) and then he spent 3 years training on Earth to face the androids.
Krillin had his power unlocked by the elder, raising it to a little more than 10000, and then he trained on Earth for the cyborgs.

Meaning, with all things considered, I really can`t imagine Krillin being stronger than Tenshinhan. And I already explained what I think about Yamcha`s statement.

[Herms]

That said, I slightly question whether or not Tenshinhan is always squarely designated "human."

In DB terms, Saiyans count as humans, so Tenshinhan definitely would too. Yamcha originally says that Kuririn is the strongest Earthling (can't remember if Viz changed this bit).

[MR.Mark]

You are not understanding what I`m trying to say... Even if Krillin had the Kikoho, I don`t think that he, with his level of power, would be able to keep 2nd form Cell immobilized. But Tenshinhan was able to.

But like I said, we'll never know because Ten is the only character that uses that move. irregardless, to me the back and forth banter of "who trained harder" is irrelevant, Toriyama decided to reveal to the reader that Kuririn was the strongest earthling via exposition from Yamucha.

[Savage68]

He revealed that Yamcha stated Krillin to be the strongest among humans. Tenshinhan was not factored into the statement, since Yamcha didn't know how strong he was. Krillin could be the strongest human...but if he is, that statement doesn't do jack to prove it. That's as far as it goes.

[Kaboom]

So the title of the thread is about SSj2 Vegeta, but we're talking about Kuririn vs Tenshinhan? Okay.

There's two ways to interpret that. We either take Yamcha's word as fact from the author's mouth, and assume Kuririn's stronger than Tenshinhan. This is plausible, as the boost from the Great Elder on Namek may have simply rocketed Kuririn up to a level that Tenshinhan simply hasn't quite reached yet. Especially since Kuririn also trained and grew for another three or four years after that.

Or we disregard the "word of the author" angle, look at it from a strictly in-universe perspective, and turn Yamcha's comment into a "maybe" and we're left to shrug and guess.

There. Now do we have any chance of getting back on-topic?

[Savage68]

Or we disregard the "word of the author" angle, look at it from a strictly in-universe perspective, and turn Yamcha's comment into a "maybe" and we're left to shrug and guess.

That's not the conclusion anyone is being lead to.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

What else to discuss? the topic's title is "Can Vegeta go SSJ2?" well he can, that's the answer.

[Kaboom]

Or we disregard the "word of the author" angle, look at it from a strictly in-universe perspective, and turn Yamcha's comment into a "maybe" and we're left to shrug and guess.

That's not the conclusion anyone is being lead to.

Well it's the only logical one you can come to if you assume Yamcha doesn't know what he's talking about. Because even if you disregard the evidence that Kuririn > Ten, there's still no evidence to support the contrary. So all that's left is ambiguity and personal opinion.

[Savage68]

Because even if you disregard the evidence that Kuririn > Ten, there's still no evidence to support the contrary.

Krillin stopped training.
Tenshinhan continued training.

Unless Krillin was ever shown to be ahead of Tenshinhan's power by an amount equivalent to 7 years of power maintenance, that's plenty of evidence right there.

[Kaboom]

Because even if you disregard the evidence that Kuririn > Ten, there's still no evidence to support the contrary.

Krillin stopped training.
Tenshinhan continued training.

Unless Krillin was ever shown to be ahead of Tenshinhan's power by an amount equivalent to 7 years of power maintenance, that's plenty of evidence right there.

It's not enough, because:

- We don't know how much of a lead Kuririn had over Tenshinhan, OR vice-versa.
- We don't know how intensely or how often Tenshinhan trained.
- We don't know how quickly either of them would or did grow, since humans don't gain power nearly as fast as Saiyans or Namekians.

It's comparable to Gohan and Vegeta. We know that Gohan stopped training while Vegeta didn't, and that eventually let Vegeta become the stronger of the two. But we still don't know exactly when or how. We can't make assumptions like this with so little to go on.

For Tenshinhan and Kuririn in the Boo arc, the ONLY thing we definitely have is Yamcha's comment. If we remove that, all we're left with is guessing.

[Savage68]

We don't know how much of a lead Kuririn had over Tenshinhan, OR vice-versa.

Then their powers should be treated as equitable or negligible, since neither one had ever done anything to suggest being stronger than the other. By the time of the Cell Games, anyway.

We don't know how intensely or how often Tenshinhan trained.

We don't need to know how frequently or vigorously Ten trained, because it was still more training than what Krillin was doing. Which is to say, none. Any form of training is superior to no training at all.

We don't know how quickly either of them would or did grow, since humans don't gain power nearly as fast as Saiyans or Namekians.

They still gain power nonetheless, though. A human that trains (even on-and-off) for 7 years would have experienced a greater power boost than another human that spars for a month in order to get back into shape.

Like it's been said before, Yamcha didn't know what he was talking about when he made the statement. And Toriyama knew that Yamcha didn't know what he was talking about. The best thing we have to go by is not this statement; It's the fact that we know Krillin stopped his training while Tenshinhan didn't. Actions always speak louder than words.

[Kaboom]

Actions always speak louder than words.

There are no actions in this case. All we have are the words. Which are never contradicted and for all intents and purposes should be considered the word of the author.

[Savage68]

Okay.

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree then, because this won't get anyone anywhere.

[Dayspring]

Why do we have to assume Yamcha and/or Toriyama are stupid because Yamcha said Krillin was the strongest human? It just means Tenshinhan hasn't proven that he's stronger at the time Yamcha made the statement. Pre-Cell Games it's Krillin. Post-Cell Games we don't know. End of story.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Vegeta can go Super Saiyan 2 because he used it against Kid Boo.

Tenshinhan is maybe stronger than Kuririn because almost everything in the series indicates that he is.

End of topic. Please close the fucking thread already.