Just how powerful was Future Gohan?

[Senzu_Bean]

It doesn't really matter. Goku in Namek could have killed Freeza just as easily. I personally don't see him that much strong. If he's 3,000,000 on Namek he's 3,100,000 there.

He trained on Yardrat for year didn't he?

No! He learned Shunkan Idō and was able to go Super Saiyan at will. Nothing more besides maybe a near death power-up.

[mysticboy]

No! He learned Shunkan Idō and was able to go Super Saiyan at will. Nothing more besides maybe a near death power-up.

Oh. Damn. But wouldn't that zenkai have yielded a greater power up than 3,000,000 to 3,100,000? It seems so out of character that he didn't train though.

[Herms]

It seems so out of character that he didn't train though.

He says that there wasn't much time, so he only was able to learn Teleportation (and how to become Super Saiyan at will too).

[Kendamu]

It seems so out of character that he didn't train though.

He says that there wasn't much time, so he only was able to learn Teleportation (and how to become Super Saiyan at will too).

Sure, that's what he said. However, Trunks was really trying to attack Goku and Goku was stopping his sword with mere fingers. I figured it was all part of the "measuring stick" thing that Shounen does.

• Goku had a hard time against Freeza on Namek.
• Trunks didn't even break a sweat killing Freeza and King Cold.
• Trunks attacks Goku and Goku very easily defends it.

Because of this, we know how much Goku has grown since we last saw him on Namek.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yeah, I'd like to think his power changed to some extent based on that. Even if many believe Trunks is equal to Goku on namek, it's made clear that Trunks is weaker than Goku, despite the latter stating Trunks didn't bring it to him with his all.

Besides, wasn't the "lack of time" quote in reference to not learning the other stuff he claimed Yardrat had? As far as techniques?

[Herms]

Besides, wasn't the "lack of time" quote in reference to not learning the other stuff he claimed Yardrat had? As far as techniques?

Yeah. Though I'd assume that if he didn't have time to learn as many techniques as he wanted, he also wouldn't have time to train as much as he'd like in other ways too.

[Senzu_Bean]

Sure, that's what he said. However, Trunks was really trying to attack Goku and Goku was stopping his sword with mere fingers.

Which after Trunks saying Goku is amazing this replies Trunks didn't give everything he could.

Because of this, we know how much Goku has grown since we last saw him on Namek.

No, we don't. The fact is Goku could have easily killed Freeza on Namek just like Trunks did. Why?! Goku clearly tells Trunks he should have gone hard on Freeza and killed him, rather than let him live with his ego defeated. That was the all point about their fight.

There is no evidence that Goku grow stronger in that one year time. If he did grow it was cause a near death power-up, which at this time in the story are no longer that massive. Thus 3,000,000 to 3,100,000 is realistic.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yeah. Though I'd assume that if he didn't have time to learn as many techniques as he wanted, he also wouldn't have time to train as much as he'd like in other ways too.

I see.

In that case, how do you see Trunks in comparison to Super Saiyan Goku on namek?

And another thing: Trunks mentions that "seeing Goku gave him hope" and that "He was even better than the stories", or along those lines. Are these statements kept somewhat intact in the Original text?

[Godo]

I'd say that Goku's power increase wasn't from training, but from learning to control the Super Saiya-jin better, so the power output became more efficient. Alas, less ki was wasted. This was taken further by the mastering of the SSJ later on.

I would like to point out that Trunks didn't have to be much stronger than Goku on Namek, or even stronger at all. He fought a (presumably) suppressed Freeza and King Cold (who probably had the same powerlevel as Freeza according to those who sensed their Space Ship).

Of course these are my opinions, not fact.

[Herms]

In that case, how do you see Trunks in comparison to Super Saiyan Goku on namek?

I don't have any real opinion, other than that I don't see Gohan's "same ki as father!" line as being about Trunks' power.

And another thing: Trunks mentions that "seeing Goku gave him hope" and that "He was even better than the stories", or along those lines. Are these statements kept somewhat intact in the Original text?

I'm not sure about the "hope" part. When's he say that? But the "greater than the stories" part is in there.

[Xyex]

No! He learned Shunkan Idō and was able to go Super Saiyan at will. Nothing more besides maybe a near death power-up.

But wouldn't that zenkai have yielded a greater power up than 3,000,000 to 3,100,000? It seems so out of character that he didn't train though.

Maybe before he got SSJ. But afterwords? Nope. The Zenkais become completely insignificant after the events on Namek, so much so that they may as well not even exist. Not only does one of the Daizenshuu mention that they're insignificant but the entire Android and Cell arc demonstrates it. Most especially when 18 beats the shit out of Vegeta. Vegeta mopes instead of rushing right off to fight her again. And he goes off to train in the RoSaT instead of having someone blast another hole through his chest as on Namek. If he'd gotten any sort of notable increase after his fight with 18 (and he was in as bad, if not worse, shape there than he had been after fighting Recoome) he'd have gone off to challenge her again. Or come up with another "Blast me to make me stronger" type of plan.

[Senzu_Bean]

The Zenkais become completely insignificant after the events on Namek, so much so that they may as well not even exist.

Just like they were prior to Namek. Near death power-ups are exactly like Goku being a Saiyan - just because we didn't know doesn't mean Goku wasn't a Saiyan. According to Krillin near death power-ups are the reason why Goku have always been one step ahead of them. There isn't no reason why they are absent after Namek.

[Kaboom]

There isn't no reason why they are absent after Namek.

1) He didn't say they were absent, just "insignificant."
2) They completely disappeared from the story for the Saiyans, but not for Cell, so it's not like Toriyama forgot about them.
3) The Daizenshuu say so as well.

[Dayspring]

There isn't no reason why they are absent after Namek.

1) He didn't say they were absent, just "insignificant."
2) They completely disappeared from the story for the Saiyans, but not for Cell, so it's not like Toriyama forgot about them.
3) The Daizenshuu say so as well.

Regarding what I bolded: To be fair, Senzu's probably getting confused by arguments worded this way.


@Senzu: Based on the rate of BP growth and how even the daizenshuu figured it was pointless to try and calculate them beyond Goku vs Freeza, it's not impossible for BPs to have reached the hundred billions. If the best a zenkai can give is a boost of around 3 mil, then they do next to nothing in regards to gains for against the androids and Cell. So it's not that they ceased to be, it's that they may as well have.

[Xyex]

@Senzu: Based on the rate of BP growth and how even the daizenshuu figured it was pointless to try and calculate them beyond Goku vs Freeza, it's not impossible for BPs to have reached the hundred billions. If the best a zenkai can give is a boost of around 3 mil, then they do next to nothing in regards to gains for against the androids and Cell. So it's not that they ceased to be, it's that they may as well have.

There's a logic paradox in that statement. In order for the powers to reach the hundreds of billions eve by the Buu Saga, let alone Cell, then Zenkais would need to persist as they had on Namek, with massive boosts. That's the only way to get the base level high enough to have powers in the hundreds of millions.

And 3 million still counts as a massive increase. That's 150 million points after transforming, and multiple stacks of 150 million add up. It's more than likely that they weren't getting an increase of more than 2 or 3 thousand after Zenkais, at most.

[Dayspring]

@Senzu: Based on the rate of BP growth and how even the daizenshuu figured it was pointless to try and calculate them beyond Goku vs Freeza, it's not impossible for BPs to have reached the hundred billions. If the best a zenkai can give is a boost of around 3 mil, then they do next to nothing in regards to gains for against the androids and Cell. So it's not that they ceased to be, it's that they may as well have.

There's a logic paradox in that statement. In order for the powers to reach the hundreds of billions eve by the Buu Saga, let alone Cell, then Zenkais would need to persist as they had on Namek, with massive boosts. That's the only way to get the base level high enough to have powers in the hundreds of millions.

And 3 million still counts as a massive increase. That's 150 million points after transforming, and multiple stacks of 150 million add up. It's more than likely that they weren't getting an increase of more than 2 or 3 thousand after Zenkais, at most.

That assumes that their only strength comes from SSJ being a constant 50x multiplier though, and that their rate of growth drops back down to mortal standards. ROSAT prooves it's not, while the fact that they greatly exceed mortal standards in a few days shows their rate of growth becomes incalculable. Even the daizenshuu agree that it becomes pointless to use BPs as a measurement tool, because of how big they get. It's not that hard to just swap the "1" at the beginning of "150,000,000" with a "2-9" you know, implying that they greatly surpass the one billion mark (albeit possibly in SSJ form) once Trunks shows up.

Keep in mind that 60,000 for a Saiyan just isn't possible. At all. And not a matter of "it must be, because it happened!" please, it's following this logic that gets us Kaioshins and Freeza and more being drastically surprised by Goku's strength. The rate of growth becomes impossible to calculate because they surpass what's possible for mortals. It may even be for this reason that Freeza is 1,000x stronger than Ginyu, yet never expected to ever meet anyone stronger than Ginyu; it may be a constant in the Universe that once you surpass your limitations, your strength increases as astronomical.

So even if it was multiplier boosts of 150,000,000 each time, they actually don't add up the way you're saying. 1,200 is on par with 1,500, which means 80% strength, but 22,000 is nowhere near 24,000 despite being 92%. There's no way to tell how many billions difference in strength there need or need not be to handle one's self in combat when the BPs stack up that high.

[Senzu_Bean]

I believe I might find the following logic somewhat inconsistent. Please share your thoughts.

So Trunks is astonished how Vegeta is able to keep up with #18. After all been trashed up by the Artificial Humans Trunks claims these are stronger than those he known since he could keep up with both #17 and #18 for a while. But Vegeta was holding his own with ONLY #18 and Trunks is suppose to be able to keep up with both.

Does this make sense? Or I'm missing something here?

[Dayspring]

I believe I might find the following logic somewhat inconsistent. Please share your thoughts.

So Trunks is astonished how Vegeta is able to keep up with #18. After all been trashed up by the Artificial Humans Trunks claims these are stronger than those he known since he could keep up with both #17 and #18 for a while. But Vegeta was holding his own with ONLY #18 and Trunks is suppose to be able to keep up with both.

Does this make sense? Or I'm missing something here?

Nope. Trunks was a dumbass.

In-story, I guess since he saw that he was in league with SSJ Goku a few years back, that 3.5 years training wasn't enough for Vegeta to take on the androids, but enough for him and the stronger Goku to take them on.

[Xyex]

@Senzu: Based on the rate of BP growth and how even the daizenshuu figured it was pointless to try and calculate them beyond Goku vs Freeza, it's not impossible for BPs to have reached the hundred billions. If the best a zenkai can give is a boost of around 3 mil, then they do next to nothing in regards to gains for against the androids and Cell. So it's not that they ceased to be, it's that they may as well have.

There's a logic paradox in that statement. In order for the powers to reach the hundreds of billions eve by the Buu Saga, let alone Cell, then Zenkais would need to persist as they had on Namek, with massive boosts. That's the only way to get the base level high enough to have powers in the hundreds of millions.

And 3 million still counts as a massive increase. That's 150 million points after transforming, and multiple stacks of 150 million add up. It's more than likely that they weren't getting an increase of more than 2 or 3 thousand after Zenkais, at most.

That assumes that their only strength comes from SSJ being a constant 50x multiplier though, and that their rate of growth drops back down to mortal standards. ROSAT prooves it's not, while the fact that they greatly exceed mortal standards in a few days shows their rate of growth becomes incalculable. Even the daizenshuu agree that it becomes pointless to use BPs as a measurement tool, because of how big they get. It's not that hard to just swap the "1" at the beginning of "150,000,000" with a "2-9" you know, implying that they greatly surpass the one billion mark (albeit possibly in SSJ form) once Trunks shows up.

The RoSaT proves that it does, actually. If you'll note, the entire point of the RoSaT training wasn't "Let's beat ourselves up so that our bases sky rocket!" it was "Let's make SSJ even more powerful because we can't gain that much strength through training now!" Base levels barely have to budge in the Android and Cell stuff. I've got SSJ Goku at 150 million in the Android saga and 600 million at the Cell Games, and his base only doubles via the RoSaT training (Which is more than it did in the three years prior to the Androids, because the RoSaT is more extreme than normal Earth training.)

As for the Daizenshuu, no. The only reason they quit giving powers was because they were too lazy to try and figure them out themselves at that point. The 'incalculable' thing is just an excuse, far as I'm concerned.

it may be a constant in the Universe that once you surpass your limitations, your strength increases as astronomical.

This makes no sense what-so-ever. It's already stated in the series that gaining power becomes harder the stronger you get. It's just that cut-and-dry simple.

So even if it was multiplier boosts of 150,000,000 each time, they actually don't add up the way you're saying. 1,200 is on par with 1,500, which means 80% strength, but 22,000 is nowhere near 24,000 despite being 92%. There's no way to tell how many billions difference in strength there need or need not be to handle one's self in combat when the BPs stack up that high.

There's a difference, though. That 1,200 to 1,500 being 'on par' was likely considering both fighters giving it their all. Secondly, I assume your 22,000 is for Dodoria, and we have no idea what his power was. It could have been (and likely was closer to) 20,000. Add to this the fact that, like Kui, he didn't really put up much of an actual fight, instead kept looking for an escape, and that compensates for the difference.

Contrary to popular belief it's not all about who is stronger than who. It also depends on how serious the fighters are taking the fight. Major case-in-point is Goku and Piccolo vs. Raditz. If Raditz had been as serious against Goku and Piccolo as the two of them were against him, they wouldn't have won. They'd have died in seconds. When you create openings a serious opponent will capitalize on them and it changes the whole battle dynamic.

I believe I might find the following logic somewhat inconsistent. Please share your thoughts.

So Trunks is astonished how Vegeta is able to keep up with #18. After all been trashed up by the Artificial Humans Trunks claims these are stronger than those he known since he could keep up with both #17 and #18 for a while. But Vegeta was holding his own with ONLY #18 and Trunks is suppose to be able to keep up with both.

Does this make sense? Or I'm missing something here?

He wasn't judging it off of Vegeta's fight with 18 but rather how quickly 17 took him out after he tried to help his father. It only took one or two hits, and his sword shattered against 17's arm, and that was more than the Androids of the future could do.