Killi System

[Kaboom]

Let's rein in the "you must be nuts if you don't agree with me" attitude a bit, please.

[Kaboom]

Let's rein in the "you must be nuts if you don't agree with me" attitude, please.

[rereboy]

It's called common sense. Unless you want the manga to use ZERO logic, Gotenks must be that strong. Unless you endorse this line of thinking.....

Hey I think I can beat Fat Buu. Even though I can sense that my power is far weaker than Vegeta's who was nothing to Buu, I am still confident! Also, Kuririn can sense that my power is far below Vegeta's as well, and he is convinced by my utter confidence, despite how weak everyone is aware of. I am so confident in my power for no apparent reason and Kuririn is as well ! Yes!


Hey I think I can take Super Buu! Previously my SSJ form was nowhere a match for him. But now, for no apparent reason, I am utterly confident in my newfound base power. Which is way weaker than my SSJ power, yet I'm still confident! Piccolo also notices that my new base power is nowhere near my previous SSJ power and is convinved as well bny my confidence. I am so confident in my power for no apparent reason and Piccolo is as well!

You are forgetting that they are kids and lack common sense.

These two examples should be enough to make my point across:

- First thing they did when they heard about a dangerous warlock? "COOL! WE WANT TO SEE HIM!"

- Hey, Goten, your mom was just killed by being turned into a egg... But lets do this: we will wait for the last 5 minutes of the fusion to turn SSJ3! It will be way cooler, don`t you think? YEAH!!!

As for Piccolo, he tried to convince himself for a moment that there might be hope of not dying in the ROSAT. It was pretty much a desperate thought. We all try to convince ourselves that everything will be all right and we try to hang on to our hopes instead of just panicking and state that we are doomed. Its pretty natural, I don`t find that illogical.

Also, Gotenks can control his power at will so everytime someone thinks about him, he or she considers the fact that he or she can`t sense just how powerful he is, they can only sense how much power he is using in that moment. He could always pull enormous reserves of power "out of his ass" like many fighters who are hiding their power do, so they can`t rule the possibility that he is much stronger than what they are currently sensing out.

[p123]

Agreed, they are cocky arrogant jerkjob kids. Doesn't mean they suddenly forgot how to ki sense. Trunks/Goten are able to sense both Vegeta and Gotenks. It is impossible for them to be confident , yet know they are weaker than Vegeta.

[rereboy]

Agreed, they are cocky arrogant jerkjob kids. Doesn't mean they suddenly forgot how to ki sense. Trunks/Goten are able to sense both Vegeta and Gotenks. It is impossible for them to be confident , yet know they are weaker than Vegeta.

If they lack common sense and are full of themselves, thinking they are the greatest just because they improved a lot, its only natural for them to make an error of judgment when comparing their power to Buu or anyone else. That is pretty much the definition of lack of common sense: the inability to see/think the reasonable and the obvious. And these boys, because they are two way too overpowered kids, proved that they do just that numerous times.

Btw, I edited my last post to include more stuff.

[p123]

Nothing suggests that the kids cannot sense ki. Since they can, they would blatantly have to lie to themselves to be confident. Which I find unrealistic.

Just like I said, they are kids, cocky arrogant, very flawed. But nothing suggests they are that silly to falsely believe they are stronger than Vegeta if there not.

They are much stronger than Vegeta, and just underestimated Buu, makes a hell of a lot more sense than Gotenks lieing to himself.

Also Kuririn ( Pre Rosat ) and Piccolo ( post Rosat ) endorse their confidence. For this to happen you require 3 count it 3 ki sensing characters to completely lie to themselves at differing times.


That is just unacceptable logic IMO. Kuririn and Gotenks both lie to themselves and trick themselves into thinking Gotenks has a chance when they know he is weaker than Vegeta.

Really? Your endorse this?


Same thing for Post rosat, just replace Kuririn with Piccolo.



Since when is it suggested that Piccolo/Kuririn are that dumb? That they lack common sense? It's not just the kids involved here.

[Kaboom]

Really? You endorse this?

I think you may have missed this:

Let's rein in the "you must be nuts if you don't agree with me" attitude, please.

Also, I've been reading this thread as it progresses and... honestly, if anyone takes Gotenks this seriously, I think they need to remind themselves just what series they're reading. We're talking about a character who's one big joke. He's the very personification of Toriyama's return to goofy comedy in the Boo arc. Most so-called "statements" about his power are setups for gags, and on more than one occasion he's just reduced to a flat-out over-confident idiot by the magic of plot/comedy-induced stupidity.

The willingness to disregard his silly nature and take everything about him literally, only to end up with results that are every bit as ridonkulous... has left me scratching my head.



You know what? I've had an epiphany about how to bring a little bit of order to all this chaos. What do the guidebooks and other supplementary material say about Gotenks and his power? They already approach things from a more encyclopedic and "matter-of-fact" angle. So why don't we turn to them a bit now instead of the manga, since nobody seems to know a joke when they see it?

[p123]

Hey Kaboom, I agree, I'm not angling on the debate whether they are a joke or not. I won't touch that kind of POV. If you think the character is simply a joke, I have zero problems with that.

My problem, is the understanding of the implications. Gotenks is implied to be ...... but, is a joke character so it doesn't matter, is fine by me. I understand that POV. I don't understand the confusion of the implications. Do you understand what I mean? I think we should be agreeing on the Gotenks implications, as I have said, a bit hastily even, appears to be more of a common sense issue than anything. But whether he is to be taken as a joke or not is up to the viewers POV. Agree on the implications, disagree on the seriousness of the character.

Some may find my logic irritating. It's got a cold hard logic POV tied to it. Generally it just consists of asking yourself why a fighter is confident, and why others endorse his confidence. That's generally all I do. After these questions are answered, there generally is one answer that uses twisted logic, and another that seems to be the common sense approach.


So let me reiterate, Gotenks plausibly could be a joke/gag character. I agree with this, and perhaps nothing involved with him should be taken seriously. That's fine. But the implications of the character's power is Example A/B/C.


But I agree with you Kaboom, I would be very interested in seeing what the guides have on Gotenks, I don't think I have ever heard anything about that, and it appears you haven't either. Sadly , in all likelihood I would think that there is nothing there seeing as neither you or I have heard about them in all this time. But I am hopeful something is there. Would be nice to hear what they have on the character regardless if they agree/disagree with me.

[Herms]

You know what? I've had an epiphany about how to bring a little bit of order to all this chaos. What do the guidebooks and other supplementary material say about Gotenks and his power? They already approach things from a more encyclopedic and "matter-of-fact" angle. So why don't we turn to them a bit now instead of the manga, since nobody seems to know a joke when they see it?

His Daizenshuu 7 bio says that after Gotenks trains in the Room of Spirit and Time, he "leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others". His entry in Daizenshuu 2's "Growing Up" section likewise says that in the RoSaT "through a few days' training, Gotenks became super powered up". About his Super Saiyan 3 form, it says that "this form possesses the ability to fight equally with Majin Buu", and that "as a Super Saiyan 3, he can open a hole in the dimension with just his voice". Meanwhile, Gohan's entry says that as the "Mightiest Warrior" (ie Ultimate Gohan) he "has power surpassing Gotenks".

The anime guidebook Son Goku Densetsu says that Gotenks is many times stronger than Goten or Trunks are on their own. It also says that as a Super Saiyan, "his power alone is greater than Gohan's". OK, that sounds kinda odd, but the idea is that he's more powerful than Gohan, but implicitly below him in other areas (such as, I'd assume, being a complete idiot). Presumably they don't mean Ultimate Gohan, but it's not specific.

I think that's probably about it for things more specific than just saying "he's super strong" or whatever. There's also lots of statements about how overconfident Gotenks is.

[Fox666]

It also says that as a Super Saiyan, "his power alone is greater than Gohan's."

It sounds simply like that they surprassed Gohan before he got the Ultimate/Mystic power-up... no?

[Kaboom]

Here's how I'd put that all together...

When first showing off fusing while transformed, Super Gotenks is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, but either still weaker or roughly on the same level as the other Super Saiyan 2s (hence the doubt about him doing any good against Boo when SSj2 Goku and Vegeta couldn't). As a result of his week-long stint in the Room of Spirit and Time, Super Gotenks got a sizable boost that clearly put him over (presumably Super Saiyan 2, probably Majin) Vegeta... but not Goku? Regardless, Super Saiyan 3 then let him fight Super Boo on even grounds, and Ultimate Gohan was even stronger than that.

Something like this, maybe?

SSj2 Gohan ~ 70
SSj2 Vegeta ~ 85
SSj2 Majin Vegeta ~ 100
SSj2 Goku ~ 100
(SSj3 Goku ~ 400)

Super Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) ~ 80
Super Gotenks (post-RoSaT) ~ 95
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks ~ 760

Super Boo ~ 750
Ultimate Gohan ~ 900
Super Vegetto ~ 9001

Works pretty well with my prior sentiment that Gotenks is roughly twice as strong as the non-fused Saiyans.

[p123]

Kaboom you have Majin Vegeta > SSJ Gotenks Pre Rosat?

I haven't heard too many people argue that before. Why does Piccolo think his power is impressive, if he's weaker than Vegeta. After the angry blast, Piccolo says that Vegeta is no match for Buu.


Wouldn't that not be logical? I mean wouldn't it be kind of silly for Piccolo to be impressed with a power weaker than a power that was nothing to Buu? I'm sure you are using the gag character logic here , am I right.


Herms, would be nice to hear you weigh in on the issue. What do you think about my logic on Gotenks?

[dbgtFO]

Kaboom you have Majin Vegeta > SSJ Gotenks Pre Rosat?

I haven't heard too many people argue that before. Why does Piccolo think his power is impressive, if he's weaker than Vegeta. After the angry blast, Piccolo says that Vegeta is no match for Buu.

His Daizenshuu 7 bio says that after Gotenks trains in the Room of Spirit and Time, he "leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others".

As you can see Daizenshuu 7 says, that he first surpassed Vegeta and the others after his training in the RoSAT.

I will say though, that in my point of view base Gotenks is very close to Majin Vegeta.
If you look at Vegeta's fight with Fat Buu, you see that the only reason, why he lost was because he didn't dodge Fat Buu's explosion.

Even Kaiofuckingshin was able to escape it and he was almost dead at that point in time. And don't forget, that Babidi a being several times weaker, than Piccolo was able to generate a shield powerful enough to withstand the explosion, while Vegeta thought his arms would be able to protect him.

[Bussani]

And don't forget, that Babidi a being several times weaker, than Piccolo was able to generate a shield powerful enough to withstand the explosion

That's magic, so Babidi's strength doesn't really factor into it.

Barrier Sorcery
First Appearance: Chapter 465
Category: magical arts
People: Babidi
Special Characteristics: A defensive art where, raising both his hands above his head, he cries “Barrier!!” and a circular aura wraps around his body. It completely protects his body from the ki attacks fired by his opponents. It wasn’t budged at all even after being hit at extremely close range by the tremendously powerful shockwave which Majin Buu (good) fired from his entire body. However, it seems that the barrier will vanish when attacked with a physical blow, which it is weak against. Because the energy consumption rate of this art is high, he only uses it when in an extreme pinch.

[dbgtFO]

And don't forget, that Babidi a being several times weaker, than Piccolo was able to generate a shield powerful enough to withstand the explosion

That's magic, so Babidi's strength doesn't really factor into it.

Barrier Sorcery
First Appearance: Chapter 465
Category: magical arts
People: Babidi
Special Characteristics: A defensive art where, raising both his hands above his head, he cries “Barrier!!” and a circular aura wraps around his body. It completely protects his body from the ki attacks fired by his opponents. It wasn’t budged at all even after being hit at extremely close range by the tremendously powerful shockwave which Majin Buu (good) fired from his entire body. However, it seems that the barrier will vanish when attacked with a physical blow, which it is weak against. Because the energy consumption rate of this art is high, he only uses it when in an extreme pinch.

I see..
But still, Vegeta could have done something else, than realizing right before it hit him, that it wasn't the best idea to just stand still.
So for Gotenks to survive against Fat Buu he doesn't have to be stronger, than Vegeta, since Kaioshin was able to survive, even though he was heavily injured.

[p123]

Gotenks surviving is just a feat. Logically nearly anyone would be able to dig themselves into a hole in the ground or hide and suppress their chi and run away. That's not the point. Vegeta dies, Gotenks lives is the biggest thing to take from that.


And not to mention that Gotenks being confident, and Kuririn backing up his confidence, is totally illogical if Gotenks is weaker than Majin Vegeta. I think people are baffled by a base fighter surpassing a SSJ2 fighter, an improved SSJ2 fighter at that as well. It's not big deal, stupid crap happens all over the Buu Saga, once you get used to it , it's no biggie.

[jackjack]

If you look at Vegeta's fight with Fat Buu, you see that the only reason, why he lost was because he didn't dodge Fat Buu's explosion.

So he wouldn't have lost if he did?

[Kaboom]

Herms, would be nice to hear you weigh in on the issue. What do you think about my logic on Gotenks?

I say I prefer not to make such large leaps in logic. Nothing shows base Gotenks was that insanely strong. He survived, big whoop. Vegeta probably would too if he didn't blow himself up.

Base Gotenks is nothing special. Kuririn thinking, "maybe he can do something" was the setup and him coming back all comically beat-up was the punchline. We never even saw the "fight," so for all we know Gotenks got all that damage just from one dismissive swat to the face. And if we're going to trust these statements anyway, then even though Kuririn forced himself to see a sliver of hope, Piccolo still knew there was no chance of base Gotenks winning. Who of the two is more trustworthy?

Being "impressed" is no automatic indication of being inferior (otherwise 50% Freeza was much weaker than base Goku). Base Gotenks is not automatically stronger than Piccolo JUST because Piccolo noticed and remarked about Gotenks' power. Even after the kids fuse as Super Saiyans, Piccolo still has reservations about what he can do.

If base Gotenks was already close enough to Majin Boo's power to stand any sort of chance... then how come nobody's whooping and hollering, saying, "oh yeah, now Boo's dead for sure!" now that Gotenks is a whole fifty times stronger? If Boo is a 10 and base Gotenks was an 8... then Super Gotenks is now a 400 and Boo's doomed. Instead of saying, "hold on, Gotenks!" Piccolo would be saying, "yes! Do it! Go kill Boo now!"

This is "logical," correct? This is just as much a statement, feeling, and "implication" as anything else, right?

There's an awful lot of big assumptions being made, here, all just for the sake of... something, and I don't get it. Why does base Gotenks have to be that strong, when it makes more sense (and is even supported by the guidebooks' input) otherwise?

I mean, I like him and everything, and he's a cool and funny character, but it seems counter-productive to take all these things about him so literally, else you wind up with some really freakish and mixed-up figures. One way or another, Gotenks is a silly character. If you're trying to figure him out, then at some point you're going to need to embrace that silliness. Either before the figuring, like I do with my 'feats over statements' policy, or after, when you wind up with goofiness that you made yourself.

[dbgtFO]

If you look at Vegeta's fight with Fat Buu, you see that the only reason, why he lost was because he didn't dodge Fat Buu's explosion.

So he wouldn't have lost if he did?

Yeah scratch that.
Vegeta would eventually lose, since Majin Buu apparently isn't able to be hurt without some MAJOR difference in power.
And Vegeta was not stronger, than Fat Buu, so he would have lost regardless.

Gotenks surviving is just a feat. Logically nearly anyone would be able to dig themselves into a hole in the ground or hide and suppress their chi and run away. That's not the point. Vegeta dies, Gotenks lives is the biggest thing to take from that.

Kaioshin surviving is also a feat!! He survived, while Vegeta didn't, so I guess Kaioshin is stronger, than SSJ 2 Vegeta!!!(don't forget, that he also fought Majin Buu like 5 million years ago and survived!!!)
And Vegeta only died, because he commited suicide...

And not to mention that Gotenks being confident, and Kuririn backing up his confidence, is totally illogical if Gotenks is weaker than Majin Vegeta. I think people are baffled by a base fighter surpassing a SSJ2 fighter, an improved SSJ2 fighter at that as well. It's not big deal, stupid crap happens all over the Buu Saga, once you get used to it , it's no biggie.

I guess Goku and Piccolo being confident in their odds against Raidtz, even though they are clearly inferior to him is illogical as well, but yet they were with Goku claiming that power isn't everything, which was proven.

And what Kaboom said..

[jackjack]

Trying to argue base Gotenks > Vegeta with people who believe Vegeta > SSJ Gotenks is like telling SSJ3 Gotenks > Goku to those with Goku > Gohan.

Anyway, would have to say that all we know factually is that both base Gotenks and Vegeta are weaker than Fat Boo. SSJ Gotenks being placed below Vegeta, on the other hand, doesn't make a lick of sense.