Disproving the 120 number

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

That sounds like a huge stretch, to me.

[Savage68]

Well in comparison, During the Cell Games, Goku knew that Gohan had a power deep within him to defeat Cell without seeing Gohan transform into a SSJ2.

He caught a glimpse of that hidden power in the Rosat, as was stated.

[Deimos]

He caught a glimpse of that hidden power in the Rosat, as was stated.

Right. The others knew of Kaioken's existence and have even seen it in action. They knew Goku had it up his sleeve. Whether they considered it when Goku arrived is uncertain however.

I know it may be a stretch, but worth considering, I guess.

[Bussani]

The others knew of Kaioken's existence and have even seen it in action. They knew Goku had it up his sleeve. Whether they considered it when Goku arrived is uncertain however.

I know it may be a stretch, but worth considering, I guess.

They shouldn't have known about Kaioken x10 or x20, which Goku hadn't used yet. A Kaioken x4, the highest he'd used before, would only have put him roughly equal to second form Freeza if his battle power was 300,000. I guess they could have assumed he could pull off a higher one, but that still seems like a stretch.

[Adamant]

Isn't SSJ Vegeta superior to SSJ Goku when the androids arrive?

Piccolo theorizes that he might be, but nothing is stated outright, and there's no comparable feats in the entire arc that hints towards either being stronger than the other.

[mister yummy]

The "Everyone was in awe of his power" is the best argument for 3,000,000 I've ever seen, and it's not one that had occured to me before. I'll have to re-evaluate my position on this. I still think hundreds of millions is too high though...

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Also, as I said earlier, the fact that Goku said that he's still got power left in reserve, halfway through the battle, completely debunks the idea that Goku was using Kaio-Ken x10 from the get-go.

[Perfect]

The Kaio-ken is a technique in which one uses to amplify their overall power. It's like having something with a size of 5 centimeters and adding another natural element which causes it to grow to 10 centimeters. When that element is taken away, the object's size regresses back to 5 centimeters. I can't really think of any good analogies to explain how something like that would work in the real world. By controlling your chi in the mannerism so that you use the technique, your power is amplified. However, with this amplification present, the toll on the body becomes all the more stressful. And if the chi in one's body isn't controlled correctly, then you'll go pop like the weasel.

So with that said, how would you be able to sense an amplification by a technique? You could imagine it, sure. But you couldn't sense it. You can sense or feel one's hidden power through different situations, like Krillin when he got kicked by Perfect Cell.

Goku was gifted with the right genetics, take Bardock for example. Look how strong he became in such a short amount of time. That may also be another reason Toriyama added Bardock in the manga. So it all works out for Goku's huge zenkai boosts. It could just all be coincidental too, but it still logically works out.

So the reason for such huge numbers are because of what a nightmare Freeza was. In the old Toonami promo for new episodes of the Freeza arc the narrator says, "And a new enemy appears, even stronger than Vegeta." The whole point that even CN seemed to understand was, Vegeta was this ruthless tyrant from space that seemed unstoppable and only lost on a crutch. As time progressed, that whole story about Freeza's empire was slowly being unraveled. Even Vegeta was afraid, the guy that gave even them all that trouble. Then comes these Ginyu fruitcakes, who make Vegeta look like a chump. Not to mention this Freeza guy is overwhelmingly stronger than all of them, making sense since he's their superior.

And finally, after all of Vegeta's strategies failed, all his zenkais finished, he faces his worst nightmare. He loses the fight and gets murdered in cold blood. Goku fights a valiant effort, but ultimately fails and loses Krillin. This Freeza guy again, what is he? How could someone be that strong? That careless? That ruthless? That callous?

Here's how I see Toriyama's mindset, the numbers were a representation to show just how strong and far Goku had come. This was the battle for the lives of many (I would say universe, but the battle seems aimed more at a particular section of the universe with characters we know, unlike Buu), if Goku failed, everyone died. Goku and Freeza are stronger than anything anyone at that point had ever seen (Excluding races like the Kaioshins and various others, again this sort of thing is aimed at what's on camera and what characters we've already seen).

Goku wins the battle, but with a price. Those huge numbers, no one could catch up to that, no one in their right mind. Vegeta became greatly agitated at that, what was left for him to be alive at all? Train to reach the pinnacle of his race and defeat the one who took that honor away from him. Accordingly to Shenlong however, Goku isn't dead! He didn't die, he escaped. However all that may be, neither is Freeza. The two super powers in the universe are coming back, for one big clash to see who's stronger.

This however is where numbers become obsolete, no longer is Toriyama using them to show how great someone's strength is. It's unneeded, because the story takes a different direction. It isn't a clash for part of the entire universe, it's a tale of angst, misery, drama, mellow-drama and various other elements that weren't present with the Saiyan's or Freeza's story arcs. Basically the numbers were only there because they fit the stage (And it worked rather well, the only problem generally is the fans, which most people agree with).

[Deimos]

Well, how much energy does Kaioken x10 drain? It couldn't be very much if he was using it in instantaneous bursts. Especially if we consider the possibility of him using a lesser multiplier (x4, x5, x6, etc.) which would be less stressful on Goku's body.

Remember, Piccolo stated that both were holding back. We should also consider that maybe Freeza was holding back even more than Goku. ( Freeza did fight Goku without his hands at one point after all ) Especially since we don't have an exact percentage of where Freeza was at. All we know is that he is under half. He could be as low as 3%, or as high as 33%.

As far as the higher number goes, I wouldn't have a problem with it as much if the series ended there. Freeza is labeled "the strongest being in the universe" and that 120,000,000 number advertises as much. Also Goku, being the ONE and ONLY Legendary Super Saiyan, again 150,000,000 is justified. But then we have a saga where androids could obliterate both in a blink of an eye. It definitely tarnishes Freeza's reputation when he actually becomes one of the weakest villains in the series. It makes those high numbers even more ridiculous.

[Perfect]

Well, how much energy does Kaioken x10 drain? It couldn't be very much if he was using it in instantaneous bursts. Especially if we consider the possibility of him using a lesser multiplier (x4, x5, x6, etc.) which would be less stressful on Goku's body.

Remember, Piccolo stated that both were holding back. We should also consider that maybe Freeza was holding back even more than Goku. ( Freeza did fight Goku without his hands at one point after all ) Especially since we don't have an exact percentage of where Freeza was at. All we know is that he is under half. He could be as low as 3%, or as high as 33%.

As far as the higher number goes, I wouldn't have a problem with it as much if the series ended there. Freeza is labeled "the strongest being in the universe" and that 120,000,000 number advertises as much. Also Goku, being the ONE and ONLY Legendary Super Saiyan, again 150,000,000 is justified. But then we have a saga where androids could obliterate both in a blink of an eye. It definitely tarnishes Freeza's reputation when he actually becomes one of the weakest villains in the series. It makes those high numbers even more ridiculous.

There's several flaws in those arguments. Goku states that if the Kaio-ken is incorrectly used, the user can explode or cause severe damage to their body. Regardless of the level, there's always going to be the stress of maintaining the technique properly. Vegeta's "legend" of the Legendary Super Saiyan was just that, a legend (A myth). The only truth presented from it is the fact a Super Saiyan exists at all. One might be able to add that the whole violent nature thing also comes from it, but that wouldn't really be suitable for the first stage of Super Saiyan. That however would work really well for Super Saiyan 2 or 3, which isn't credible from the legend whatsoever. Freeza is only labeled the strongest in the universe by himself and his subordinates (And Kaio-sama, but he has the same syndrome with villains as the Eastern Kaioshin). The rest of your argument seems to have missed the point entirely. In laymen terms, the numbers are representations to show just how strong the two are, and they work perfectly (They work given the criteria of the story used up until that point). Once Trunks comes along, the story takes an entirely different approach, in terms of themes, story elements, character development and tons of other things.

I'm also unsure of how they're ridiculous given everything else that happens in the series. You have people that can blow up planets effortlessly, fly faster than airplanes, teleport, make friends with the upper Gods of the universe, etc. It all fits in fine.

[Son Edo]

Thats just how it works guys.

[Rocketman]

Also, as I said earlier, the fact that Goku said that he's still got power left in reserve, halfway through the battle, completely debunks the idea that Goku was using Kaio-Ken x10 from the get-go.

Freeza can't sense ki, how does he know?

[CatouttaHell]

Also, as I said earlier, the fact that Goku said that he's still got power left in reserve, halfway through the battle, completely debunks the idea that Goku was using Kaio-Ken x10 from the get-go.

Freeza can't sense ki, how does he know?

Ginyu can't sense Ki either but he almost correctly guessed how much power Goku was holding back while fighting him.

[Deimos]

Yes, but obviously x20 Kaioken is more stressful than x10. Look how x3 and x4 destroyed Goku's body when he used it against Vegeta, yet x2 didn't have nearly as much of an impact on his body. But of course, with training he was able to go to the next level. Imagine if Saiyan Saga Goku tried a x10 Kaioken, he would surely explode. However, I'm sure with his x100 gravity training he knows how to correctly and effectively use Kaioken to its utmost potential. As far as we know, he mastered the technique. Goku knows what he is doing, no need to doubt his capabilities.

I understood the point of the high numbers. I stated in my first sentence that they made sense to that point of series. I just said if you considered those power levels beyond the Freeza Saga, they lessen the impact of Freeza's terrifying power.

A few other reasons why I prefer the lower figures is because 12,000,000 seems pretty terrifying and hopeless enough when Vegeta and Piccolo are sporting about 1,000,000 more or less. I think 120,000,000 is overcompensating. Also, the multipliers for Freeza's forms are neat and consistent if his battle power is 12,000,000.

Form 1: 530,000
Form 2: 1,000,000 (x2 previous form)
Form 3: 3,000,000 (x3 previous form)
Form 4 (100%): 12,000,000 (x4 previous form)

On the other hand, it is hard to explain how there is 119,000,000 difference between Form 2 and Form 4. At least mathematically. It just isn't consistent.

The only hole in the 12 million theory, is that Goku's base power has to be 300,000. And we have been debating whether that can be possible. It is all speculation though, as we don't know how much Freeza is holding back, and among other factors.

But it is a fun and interesting topic nonetheless.

[Fox666]

Form 3: 3,000,000 (x3 previous form)

That's unlikely.

Freeza increased his power each transformation. And Piccolo comments on how Freeza's power increased right after he transforms in the 4th form, meaning the initial power of his 4th form is superior to his 3rd form.

Yet, Vegeta who is much weaker than Goku (3,000,000) believed he could take on Freeza's 4th form...

(...) Also, the multipliers for Freeza's forms are neat and consistent if his battle power is 12,000,000.

Form 1: 530,000
Form 2: 1,000,000 (x2 previous form)
Form 3: 3,000,000 (x3 previous form)
Form 4 (100%): 12,000,000 (x4 previous form)

On the other hand, it is hard to explain how there is 119,000,000 difference between Form 2 and Form 4. At least mathematically. It just isn't consistent.

While I understand where you are going with that, and I myself don't like the illogical progression of Freeza's form, I must say that doesn't prove it do be wrong.

First, these numbers are not inconsistent for the series. Where does it says that there must be a logical multiplier beetween each transformation?

Why does, before fighting Freeza, Vegeta and Goku increased their power by near 20 or 30 times? What is the logic behind Piccolo and Nail fusion?

Fans like to create a "logic" behind power-ups, but that's not how Toriyama mind works.

[Bussani]

On the other hand, it is hard to explain how there is 119,000,000 difference between Form 2 and Form 4.

While I understand where you are going with that, and I myself don't like the illogical progression of Freeza,'s form, I must say that doesn't prove it do be wrong.

Think of suppressing power with forms like trying to compress a spring: it's easy to make progress at first, but gets harder the more you squeeze it down.

Freeza can clearly control his power to an extent in his final form, since he wasn't even using 50% of his power when he first transformed into it. If he could get it down to the point where Goku could fight with him like he did before going down a form, the change in power isn't as great at all. If you believe that Freeza's forms exist to suppress his power further, it kind of makes sense.

[Fox666]

By the logic, if the SSJ transformation increased your power by 50 times, and Goku without the Kaioken landed a kick on Freeza's face, logically Freeza should have around 1/50 of his power right after he transformed...

[Deimos]

That's unlikely.

Freeza increased his power each transformation. And Piccolo comments on how Freeza's power increased right after he transforms in the 4th form, meaning the initial power of his 4th form is superior to his 3rd form.

Yet, Vegeta who is much weaker than Goku (3,000,000) believed he could take on Freeza's 4th form...

We don't necessarily know what percentage of his power he was using. I would like it to think initially he used 33%. Which would be 4,000,000. But again, speculation is all we can go off of.

While I understand where you are going with that, and I myself don't like the illogical progression of Freeza's form, I must say that doesn't prove it do be wrong.

First, these numbers are not inconsistent for the series. Where does it says that there must be a logical multiplier beetween each transformation?

Why does, before fighting Freeza, Vegeta and Goku increased their power by near 20 or 30 times? What is the logic behind Piccolo and Nail fusion?

Fans like to create a "logic" behind power-ups, but that's not how Toriyama minds works.

I'm mostly comparing Freeza's Form progression to Goku's Kaioken and SSJ power-ups. However, you're right about the others. We don't have everyone's power levels to begin with. If I knew Piccolo's power before fusion, I could at least try.

I'm just trying to work with what we have. There are many things that will never be explained. That is why it is up to the fans to try to explain it and have some fun along the way.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Also, as I said earlier, the fact that Goku said that he's still got power left in reserve, halfway through the battle, completely debunks the idea that Goku was using Kaio-Ken x10 from the get-go.

Freeza can't sense ki, how does he know?

Uh, would a person that could sense Ki be able to tell that Goku was hiding a Kaio-Ken x10 up his sleeve? It was just a hunch Freeza had. And in case you missed it, Goku said, yeah, you're right, I do have some power in reserve.

[Herms]

Uh, would a person that could sense Ki be able to tell that Goku was hiding a Kaio-Ken x10 up his sleeve? It was just a hunch Freeza had. And in case you missed it, Goku said, yeah, you're right, I do have some power in reserve.

Ginyu could also somehow tell that Goku wasn't giving their fight his all, and in that case Goku's reserve strength was even more explicitly shown to be the Kaio-ken.