The gap between #17 and #18?

[Kaboom]

I'll simplify my point then.

All Piccolo can tell for sure, since he can't sense them, is that these two Androids are much weaker than him.

[p123]

The androids were suggested to be >>> SSJ Trunks.

Piccolo is unsure if the andriods are >>> SSJ Trunks, or > SSJ Trunks..


The Z Senshi has gotten so ridicolously strong, Piccolo is not even sure where powers above SSJ Trunks stand anymore..

[dbgtFO]

I'll simplify my point then.

All Piccolo can tell for sure, since he can't sense them, is that these two Androids are much weaker than him.

Well you're right that Piccolo can't sense them and that he can only use their performance as a measurement.

But even, if that's the only thing he can do, he should still get a good grasp on how well that performance would compare to SSJ Trunks going all out vs. Mecha Freeza or something... that's probably not a good example lol, so for now you win.

BTW what are your points against Piccolo being stronger than Trunks?
PM me perhaps?

[p123]

Trunks likely did go all out against Freeza. He doesn't look like the type to hold back at all... Trunks of course, didn't have to go all out to beat Freeza, as Freeza was still suppressed, and Freeza's full power is suggested to still be weaker than Trunks, so it's a moot point..

But Trunks fighting Freeza, and his sparring with Yardrat Goku, should definitley give Piccolo a good clue on about how strong Trunks is...


I am actually still playing with this idea myself DBGTFO, it's all new stuff, thought process provided by Infamous666, which has not been tested or put under the fire yet. We will soon learn how good this arguement stands up...
But as you and I both know, it does seem to be the better approach according to Infamous666's logic, so we need to play around with it for a while...

[dbgtFO]

I am actually still playing with this idea myself DBGTFO, it's all new stuff, thought process provided by Infamous666, which has not been tested or put under the fire yet. We will soon learn how good this arguement stands up...
But as you and I both know, it does seem to be the better approach according to Infamous666's logic, so we need to play around with it for a while...

Well his quote definetly proves, that he's stronger than SSJ Trunks IMO.

I believe since Piccolo didn't see Dr. Gero fight before having absorbed Vegeta & Piccolo's ki, it's possible that he could be weaker than Trunks at the time.. But then we run into the problem with #19, whose abilities Piccolo should've gotten a good grasp on, when seeing him fight a sick Goku, and #19 should start out weaker than Gero!

I don't know, I think Sick Goku started out at a level equal to or below Piccolo, so there should still be a decent gap between: Trunks/19 pre/20 pre & post/Sick Goku/Piccolo.

[p123]

Yea, all you have to do is keep the absorbted increases pretty low, and you won't run into too much trouble numerically...


Piccolo >19/20 Post > 19/20 Pre > SSJ Trunks

[jackjack]

If he's really become stronger than what he sensed from SSj Trunks three years ago (which isn't necessarily the case either, but I won't go in to that)

I don't see how it isn't.

Simple logic, really. We have Piccolo expecting them androids to be > Trunks. Then we're shown Piccolo > androids.

1. If Piccolo < Trunks, then Trunks > Piccolo > androids, meaning "You're weaker than expected" would be the only explanation for his victory.
2. If Piccolo > Trunks, then it's possible that "I've grown too strong" to the point where Piccolo > androids > Trunks.

then Freeza, Androids... it's all the same.

I agree. I don't buy androids > Trunks, either.

All Piccolo can tell for sure, since he can't sense them, is that these two Androids are much weaker than him.

Which is why he thinks they may or may not be > Trunks, since he's also > Trunks.

Piccolo < Trunks makes absolutely no sense, man. "Maybe you guys really are stronger than Trunks, but I've grown so strong that even though I'm weaker than Trunks, I can still whoop anyone stronger than Trunks lulz..."

[dbgtFO]

then Freeza, Androids... it's all the same.

I agree. I don't buy androids > Trunks, either.

That one is indeed hard to figure out. All Piccolo has to go by for comparing the movements of the androids to Trunks', is Trunks killing mecha Freeza and Trunks testing out Goku.
So it could be possible that the androids pre absorption weren't Freeza level yet considering Piccolo can't base it on much.

I've never considered them stronger than Freeza pre absorption, so I'm fine, if they weren't.
And I still am interested in seeing how Kaboom could possibly figure that Trunks < Piccolo isn't a necessity.

[jackjack]

Well, Piccolo questions whether they're really > Trunks or not. If he were sure, he would've simply said "Looks like I've grown too strong..." Basically, they may or may not be stronger than Trunks, but it doesn't really matter to him if he himself is also above Trunks to the point where even someone above Trunks is still no match for him,

[Nazi Cola]

If he's not sure, then that could mean they're at least around Trunks' strength, couldn't it?

Trunks: 100
Androids: 80-90
M. Freeza: 75
Piccolo: 100+

I mean, that could perhaps work, right?

[Kaboom]

And I still am interested in seeing how Kaboom could possibly figure that Trunks < Piccolo isn't a necessity.

I don't, really. Piccolo can be however strong he needs to be, even though in lists I like to keep things conservative. That's not what I'm really concerned about. What I don't like or believe is #20 and #19 being stronger than Freeza. It causes other issues which I've talked about before.

Nazi Cola: The way I typically figure it, it'd usually be more like this.

Trunks: 150
Freeza: 130
Piccolo: 140
Androids: ??? (75-85)

[p123]

Wow Jack Jack and Lash have some good logic going on here. See what I mean DBGTFO? We need some time to see what is logical, and what is not...


Piccolo's comments definitley imply he is at least above Trunks.

1) Not lacking in confidence against fighters who scare the crap out of Trunks.
2) Thinks its a possibility that he grew too strong for fighters who scare the crap out of Trunks.


Piccolo has to be way above Trunks to suggest that he could possibly be stronger than someone who is way stronger than Trunks...


Good breakdown Jack Jack...



On 19/20, still working on that. Lash seems to have the best breakdown so far of the comments I think...

[Fox666]

2) Thinks its a possibility that he grew too strong for fighters who scare the crap out of Trunks.

He is beating the crap out of a guy that scared Trunks, or is at least what he thinks...

[p123]

Yea, Piccolo is an expert ki sensor. For him to even consider this a possibility really shows how strong Piccolo has gotten. Which is beyond ridicolous of course, but Piccolo thinks it's possible he has beaten up the androids that made Trunks shat himself. That's stupid power!

[mister yummy]

When is it ever even implied that #17 and #18 aren't significantly stronger than the Trunks that killed Freeza?

I like to think that the difference between #18 and #17 isn't any greater than it was before they were modified. So, if #18 were 100,000,000 , for instance, #176 would be around 100,000,005.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

When is it ever even implied that #17 and #18 aren't significantly stronger than the Trunks that killed Freeza?

I like to think that the difference between #18 and #17 isn't any greater than it was before they were modified. So, if #18 were 100,000,000 , for instance, #176 would be around 100,000,005.

They are talking about 19 and 20...for some reason. =P

Well, regardless of what you like to think, the difference is bigger than that as stated in the "Android ABC" title page or whatever it is called. Fox666 already covered it earlier in the topic:

Actually Gero made them a little different, it was stated in a special page in the manga



No.17: “Too much emphasis was placed on his power, resulting in him being a failure who doesn't listen to orders.”
No.18: “Her power is more suppressed than No.17's, but in the end she too is a failure who doesn't listen to orders.”

[p123]

From what I recall...


An infinite energy reactor = an infinite energy reactor


I believe 17 and 18 were suppressed down off of 16's power.. I should probably find that quote to back that up though huh?

18 is a suppressed version of 17 for sure though, but not suppressed by too much...



Ah, the quote is right there. 18's power is MORE suppressed than 17's. Which suggests 17 was suppressed as well...


So that's why I think an infinite energy reactor = infinite energy reactor..

[Fox666]

Based on "Too much emphasis was placed on his power" I would say no.17 power is not supressed at all.

Likely they are weaker than no.16 because they have a human counter-part.

[TobyS]

I don't think they were weaker because they had human parts, they were stronger then 19 and 20 after all, even though 19 absorbed a lot and 20 was the last android made.

Was 16 ever stated to be infinite energy like the teens?

[Fox666]

Yeah, but 19 was intentionally made weak because Dr. Gero could control him.

However was it even established why Dr. Gero made himself weaker than the other androids? He made himself at least a bit stronger than 19

It might be somewhat related to the fact that no. 19 was created to re-build Dr. Gero body, thus it would be a bad idea to put a greater technology on his hands? It doesn't looks like Dr. Gero androids can be trusted