Goku - what he's really like

[roidrage]

This is a fascinating discussion. I don't know if "worse" is the term I'd use to describe Goku's evolution, but the arguments do make sense. I guess that Goku is never intentionally bad, he just makes boneheaded decisions that he never really analyzes beforehand. In a lot of ways, he's as stupid as Vegeta; I'm not entirely sure he wouldn't have let Semi-Perfect Cell attain his perfect form if he had been the one to fight him, and giving Perfect Cell a Senzu bean to even the fight is right up there on the "maneuvers that could have cost the world" list.

[Dr. Casey]

This is a fascinating discussion.

Indeed, I'm glad this topic was bumped because it's definitely one of the best threads I've seen on Daizex. Goku's an interesting character to analyze... he changes more than he's sometimes given credit for, and my feelings about him during the later series were kind of strained when I was younger. I don't really feel that way anymore, I like him across the whole series and think his development into a more controversial and - as Cipher put it - worse person is very interesting (With the only thing that bothers me at all being the fact that he never communicated with anyone during the seven years post-Cell even though King Kai's like a cross-dimensional telephone), but I'm still as interested in reading opinions about said development as ever.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I don't know about boring, I always thought it was one of the things that made Goku a little more intersting then yourot your run-of-the-mill super hero.

I wonder if this is also a cultural thing? A lot of shonen heros share a similar trait, always looking for new challenges, getting excited at the prospect of meeting a new opponent, whereas most heros from the western culture (the ones we were exposed to the most) had
Maybe that's why we judge him more fiercely than it might be called for....

But I do find it frustrating that this doesn't get brought up as a serous issue in the series concerning Goku. I really want him to grow as a character as well.

The problem is that Goku's exploits aren't limited to a short period of time. He's not a child or teenage Shonen hero who wins his battles, and whose series ends in the hope that the hero uses his newfound knowledge to improve his lot. We see Goku from when he's twelve to his forties. You can't write a "*Hero* fulfilled his destiny at age nineteen then sat on his butt eating chicken wings when the rest of his life was boring" story about Goku, as you could argue the Boo Arc already fulfilled that criteria.

Which also makes Chibi/Kid Buu that much better a final villain; ridiculously strong, tireless, and battle crazed, everything Goku wants. If only he didn't kill of his loved ones and would proceed to do the same to every other planet in the universe if he doesn't kill him, which he is conveniently unable to do. Of course, the manga didn't play any of this that way, it would be a bit sarcastic a topic for Dragonball, but it makes it all the more interesting.

[Daimo-Rukiri]

Goku, a hick, a moron, and quite stupid. But when it comes to martial arts he's a bonafide
genius!

[SylentEcho]

mind-blowing analysis

This needs to be immortalized somewhere. Every DB fan should read this.

Done.

[kemuri07]

In Conclusion: Goku is just as much of an asshole as the villains he fights.

[SylentEcho]

In Conclusion: Goku is just as much of an asshole as the villains he fights.

I wouldn't go that far. He naivety gets the better of him most of the time, although it doesn't affect his judgement when he fights. When he sees strong villains, he's like a kid at a candy store and just can't contain his excitement.

[Herms]

In Conclusion: Goku is just as much of an asshole as the villains he fights.

Eh...he's no saint, but he also doesn't, you know, wipe out the inhabitants of entire planets just so he can make a few extra bucks on the side.

[Cipher]

In Conclusion: Goku is just as much of an asshole as the villains he fights.

While I do think he's unique in his progression to a more morally ambiguous character, I'd never say this. He becomes less good, but he's never bad.

Done.

Oh, my. How flattering.

[SylentEcho]

Oh, my. How flattering.

Hey, that was your post wasn't it? I hope you don't mind. I've credited you there. That way it stays somewhere accessible forever because here threads just get buried and lost for good after a point.

[Michsi]

In Conclusion: Goku is just as much of an asshole as the villains he fights.

While I do think he's unique in his progression to a more morally ambiguous character, I'd never say this. He becomes less good, but he's never bad.

I wouldn't even say "less good" is appropriate either. He seems more gentle as character while grown up than he does as a kid for instance. I just can't tell if he understands the implications of his actions or takes possible negative consequences into consideration when he is faced with a challenge. Does his love for battle make him that short-sighted or ignorant? Is he aware that some people may get hurt or does he simply not think about those things at that moment because that's just how be is.
And if he is aware, does he simply chose not to care? Honestly, I don't think so. If someone where to come to him tell him "people will die if you do this" would he still make the same decisions for the sake of fighting that opponent under the same circumstances instead of chosing what would be the safetst path? I know this scenario does pretty much happen with Future Trunks warning and he kinda fails the test BUT he reasons that he himself wasn't there and maybe " he hasn't done anyhting bad yet" really was why he was mostly against using the dragon balls, or at least a big part of it.
He does show regret at his questionable decisions after he made them, particullary with letting Vegeta go and giving Cell a senzu so maybe he DOES need to really think things over in order for big picture to sink in.

Another interesting point of discussion IMO would be if the existance of the dragon balls has helped this change in him (and this goes for the others aswell ) because they somehow cheapen the value life and death in his eyes. Maybe he feels like that no matter what happens the DBs are there to make everything better. I think the author tried to hint at this or something of that nature with the old Kaioshin who dissaroved the usage of those dragon balls.

Done.

Wow, me too?

[Cipher]

Another interesting point of discussion IMO would be if the existance of the dragon balls has helped this change in him (and this goes for the others aswell ) because they somehow cheapen the value life and death in his eyes. Maybe he feels like that no matter what happens the DBs are there to make everything better. I think the author tried to hint at this or something of that nature with the old Kaioshin who dissaroved the usage of those dragon balls.

I think this is unquestionably true as well, especially by the Boo arc where you have Goku rationalizing letting Goten and Trunks take a stab by saying they can use the Dragon Balls to undo damage later. That's why it's a big step not only in terms of how the series works, but in terms of character development when Goku tells Shen-Long that the revived people can "rebuild Earth together" at the end of GT. Ditto for when Trunks tells Pan they need to make sure they can create a good world without using the Dragon Balls.

Oh, my. How flattering.

Hey, that was your post wasn't it? I hope you don't mind. I've credited you there. That way it stays somewhere accessible forever because here threads just get buried and lost for good after a point.

Oh, sorry if that sounded like sarcasm. That really is flattering. I have no problem with it being reposted there.

[SylentEcho]

Oh, sorry if that sounded like sarcasm. That really is flattering. I have no problem with it being reposted there.

Oh, don't worry. It didn't sound like sarcasm at all. It's just that I put it up there without even asking you, that's why I said that.

Wow, me too?

Another interesting point of discussion IMO would be if the existance of the dragon balls has helped this change in him (and this goes for the others aswell ) because they somehow cheapen the value life and death in his eyes. Maybe he feels like that no matter what happens the DBs are there to make everything better. I think the author tried to hint at this or something of that nature with the old Kaioshin who dissaroved the usage of those dragon balls.

I think that contributes greatly to his attitude change. After a point most characters didn't care all that much about people dying because they knew that they'd be wished back somehow.

I seriously think Goku just got attached to everyone because he was around them so much. I think he's the kind of guy who wouldn't care much for them any more if he never saw them in years. Can't actually blame him though. He had no upbringing or family. The guy doesn't know how to get attached to someone because he's never depended on any one.

Goku was pretty much a bonehead until the Vegeta arc. Kuririn had already been wished back to life once before, but still he chose to spare Vegeta, who could have easily returned and killed Kuririn and Gohan first before fighting Goku again. Goku has a habit of not thinking things through at all.

On the other hand, Gohan wasn't that way. When Cell's Cell Jrs were battling the Super Warriors, Gohan thought to himself that every one of them had died before and couldn't be wished back and this just made him even angrier.

[Rocketman]

Goku operates on a very basic animalistic level. If he can't fight it or eat it, he has no real reaction (see: ChiChi). He does have a vague sense of 'these are mine' he extends to people like Krillin, Bulma, Gohan and Piccolo post-Raditz but it doesn't go beyond that, even to people he knows like Bulma's parents, and it certainly doesn't extend to the people of Earth in general outside of another vague 'to kill nonthreats is bad'.

Goku is a social parrot, mimicking the letter of basic social interaction without understanding the reasons behind it or being able to apply things he 'knows' to new situations.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Goku operates on a very basic animalistic level. If he can't fight it or eat it, he has no real reaction (see: ChiChi). He does have a vague sense of 'these are mine' he extends to people like Krillin, Bulma, Gohan and Piccolo post-Raditz but it doesn't go beyond that, even to people he knows like Bulma's parents, and it certainly doesn't extend to the people of Earth in general outside of another vague 'to kill nonthreats is bad'.

Goku is a social parrot, mimicking the letter of basic social interaction without understanding the reasons behind it or being able to apply things he 'knows' to new situations.

*Cyber high-five*

This thread isn't dead yet.

[Akira]

I for one never believed Goku's rationale of sparing lives because killing is wrong. He was indeed merely feeding that to others as his reason. Maybe as an adult he even believed it for a while, and told himself that was the reason, but it was not. His saiyan nature was the purest of them all. "Pure" in the sense that he truly did have a blood lust for battle that surpassed everyone else. Vegeta claimed to have such, and being the Prince, he was expected to be bloodthirsty. However, his killing and arrogance were just a front. To an extent, even Vegeta was forced to be that way, by his father, and even more so by Freeza. His was a desire of dominance and pride. Goku just purely wanted to fight, and be the best fighter. These two seem similar but are very different.

Goku was good natured, but his ultimate driving force was his total dependance on life or death combat. He thrived on the very thought of it. His downfall with Gohan at the Cell Games was expecting that his son shared this same inherent desire. Gohan was forced to fight, forced to train, and therefore never developed a love of combat like Goku. Goku's early adventures were all of his own accord, his own desire to fight. It was his choice to leave the mountains with Bulma, and everything that followed were merely carrots dangled before him. Witnessing Roshi's Kamehameha at Mt. Frying Pan, and later seeking the old man out for training were choices of his own. Goku had the ultimate freedom of choice, and naturally followed the path of the most violence and mayhem.

Killing was no concern to him for a long time, most of his early opponents met their deaths at his hands. His childhood was spent seeking the title at the world martial arts tournament, and his subsequent non killing policy stemmed from an unrecognized fear of being the best with no more challenges. Kami chose Goku as his successor, and was turned down because Goku, as personally stated, "That seems boring."

Yet, when Kami Piccolo and Daimao Piccolo re-merged into one, and left the planet without a Guardian, Goku did step up and fulfill his obligation by personally choosing the next one. Goku filled the role with Dende, and this often has been misunderstood how and why Goku chose the next in line at that point in the story. It was his decision to make, as he was technically Guardian after Kami by default. The role offered no excitement or challenges, so he simply chose another to take his place.

To say Goku did not care for his family is unfair, because he did care about them. This is seen in many scenes with them. As someone else stated, he was a creature of habit, and often took off for new challenges and adventures without a second thought. His priorities were elsewhere, and they just loved him past it and took what time they could get with him.

His "upbringing", if he had much of one at all, was studying under Master Roshi. He sent Goku out on his own after the 21st budokai to better himself. This cycle continued many times, and it was merely a way of life for Goku. I don't believe he didn't care about his friends and later family, but more he was just set in his ways, and found himself always seeking that next step on his own to better himself.

[Piccolo Daimao]

His saiyan nature was the purest of them all. "Pure" in the sense that he truly did have a blood lust for battle that surpassed everyone else. Vegeta claimed to have such, and being the Prince, he was expected to be bloodthirsty. However, his killing and arrogance were just a front. To an extent, even Vegeta was forced to be that way, by his father, and even more so by Freeza. His was a desire of dominance and pride.

lolwut

Goku and Vegeta are equally lustful for battle, and nothing suggests that one is more battle-addicted than the other. Vegeta wasn't forced to be that way by his father or Freeza. Only the dub claimed that.

Unless you're joking and I've completely missed the joke.

[SylentEcho]

I think he's talking about dub Goku and Vegeta, not their real personalities.

[Cipher]

I think you guys are missing the point Akira was trying to make.

Vegeta cares about strength and fighting, but only as far as it gets him to the number one spot. He doesn't love fighting for the sport; he loves it to prove he's better. To that end, he has no problem killing opponents, even good ones. He doesn't want a rival around to challenge him; he hates being challenged. If anyone else comes close, he wants them out of the way.

In that way, he's different from Goku, who actually cares about the act of fighting itself, regardless of how he compares to the opponent. He'll spare a strong opponent because he wants his superiority to be threatened by a good rival.

Vegeta cares about superiority and not the actual fighting; Goku cares about the actual fighting and not proving superiority.

Realizing that difference is the crux of Vegeta's change at the end of the Boo arc.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think you guys are missing the point Akira was trying to make.

No, we're not. He said that Vegeta's bloodlust for battle was the purest of all Saiyans, and that he forced to be that way his father and Freeza. Which is wrong. That's just dub shit.