Fusion multiplier

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:10 am

Please watch the attitude, jackjack. You're toeing the line here.

p123 · Post by **p123** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:50 am

Kaboom, changed your opinion on Final Form Cooler's strength? On your sig? Seems to imply your on board with FF Cooler being 40x stronger than Freeza. Change of heart? Or what?

Back to Fusion.

The weirdest issue with Fusion, is that how it becomes needed to use a fighters full power, and not just their base power, to determine the fusion power. IMO, it's bull, but obviously not something AT could have prevented as he is not really keeping track.

But KibitoShin and Base Gotenks Pre/Post, make it a near impossibility to have Base Gotenks based on Base Goten/Trunks. One of the things I really disliked, but was neccesary to make it correlate...

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:27 pm

p123 wrote:Kaboom, changed your opinion on Final Form Cooler's strength? On your sig? Seems to imply your on board with FF Cooler being 40x stronger than Freeza. Change of heart? Or what?

Nah, I don't think he was super-stronger or anything. It's just a quote from another forum, an interesting way to reconcile Coola's two lines with each other.

Coola tests Goku's base power (3 million or so): "Hmm, I guess I can see how you might pull it off somehow and defeat Freeza..." (Freeza didn't get to transform or power up, got caught by surprise, or something. A fluke.)
Coola experiences Goku's SSj power (150+ million): "HOLY CRAP ON A CRACKER, you just straight-up destroyed his full power with this, didn't you?!" (150 vs 120 million pwnage)

I just thought it was an interesting way of explaining how both of Coola's lines could make sense without having to assume they're operating at such bloated power levels compared to the series itself. The first is, "maybe you managed it somehow" while the second is, "AW SNAP I GET IT NOW." It's also funny, which is why I sigged it!

Fox666 · Post by **Fox666** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:38 pm

I think it is just a plot-hole. The fillers and movies usually have a bad sense of characters strength. I.e. Goku fighting Pikkon without going Super Saiyan

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:40 pm

Plot-hole, communication error, or just the writers trying to hype up Goku and Coola for dramatic effect. Who knows?

p123 · Post by **p123** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:43 pm

Kaboom wrote:Coola tests Goku's base power (3 million or so): "Hmm, I guess I can see how you might pull it off somehow and defeat Freeza..." (Freeza didn't get to transform or power up, got caught by surprise, or something. A fluke.)

You did well enough to beat my brother, doesn't seem like a fluke statement.. You did well enough to beat my brother IMO implies..

Base Goku Movie 5 = SSJ Goku ( Namek ) = 150 million

Kaboom wrote:Coola experiences Goku's SSj power (150+ million): "HOLY CRAP ON A CRACKER, you just straight-up destroyed his full power with this, didn't you?!" (150 vs 120 million pwnage)

SSJ Goku is 50x Base Goku and Base Goku = SSJ Goku Namek.

Holy crap, I see how Freeza was nothing to you, even me, in my uberly powered up transformed state, is not on par with you. Jesus you are a beast!

Fox666 wrote: I think it is just a plot-hole. The fillers and movies usually have a bad sense of characters strength. I.e. Goku fighting Paikuhan without going Super Saiyan

I disagree. TOEI is generally on point.

There is nothing wrong with...

Base Goku >= Pikkon W/Weights... What's the issue?

CatouttaHell · Post by **CatouttaHell** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:45 pm

p123 wrote:I disagree. TOEI is generally on point.

There is nothing wrong with...

Base Goku >= Paikuhan W/Weights... What's the issue?

Paikuhan knocked Cell out with a single kick. I can see Base Goku being that strong after the 7 year gap (I have Base Goku > SSjin Gohan, and SSjin Goku > SSjin 2 Gohan in the Boo Arc) but right after he died? No way.

p123 · Post by **p123** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:53 pm

Agreed. Base Goku ( Filler Tournament ) = Base Goku ( Cell Games ) . All of these events take place right after the the Cell Games.

I still don't see what's wrong with the issue.

Do you think Cell is at full power or something? He has no aura, and no electricity....

This is how I view it...

Pikkon FP >= MSSJ Goku >>> Blazing Shot > Suppressed PC = 50% MSSJ Goku >>>> Base Goku >= Pikkon Weights...

Blazing Shot is just a Kaioken esque technique. Looks like one, and he does train with a Kaio. It's not exactly Kaioken though, and probably can only be used for a real short span, and cannot be maintained as well as Kaioken, and is probably uberly dangerous to use. So Pikkon would only use it in a life and death situation.

Why not use it against MSSJ Goku? Pikkon was in control of the fight the entire time, until he got surprised by Goku. Plus, Goku is not a threat to existence, he is not going to use a technique that is uberly dangerous on a simple sparring match...

I think that covers everything of the confusing scenario...

CatouttaHell · Post by **CatouttaHell** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:58 pm

Your theory makes sense to me but it's still just all around strange, especially since Paikuhan using the Blazing Shot while weighted on Goku and it doesn't have anywhere near the effect it had on Cell while he was weighted. Yet from the power Paikuhan displayed against Cell, Goku was speechless. I guess maybe he wasn't sensing power very well, and Cell was suppressed enough to give Base Goku a fight and didn't have time to anticipate a Kaio-kening Paikuhan appearing out of nowhere.

p123 · Post by **p123** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:19 pm

It definitely is strange. As you can see, they were going to go with Goku being a SSJ in that instance, but changed it to save Goku's SSJ for the Pikkon battle.

Also, the narrator says that Goku has been surpassed by greater masters... But then, Goku seems somewhat suprised he has to go SSJ against Pikkon...

So it's varying levels of hype I would say by TOEI. It's pretty apparent they want to hype Pikkon up a lot, so much we are to assume Pikon > SPC, but later, we see the truth...

The only way to make sense of both the tournament, and the Cell fight is the chart I displayed. It's really the only way. TOEI does a lot of , hey this guy is !!!, and then hey, we were just joking, he's actually !... You know?

Same scenario with Bojack movie... Where we are hyped to believe Bojack is PC level, and Henchmen are MSSJ Tier, yet in the end, they are not... MSSJ Gohan displays two completely different powers in his fight...

SSJ Kid Gohan( Full Effort ) ~ Bojack Transformed >> Initial Bojack > Vegeta /Trunks / Piccolo ~ Henchmen ~ SSJ Kid Gohan ( Initial Effort )

It's a lot of nonsense they do to prolong battle scenes...Good for viewing, bad for determining one's power placement. I think I got them figured out now though...

CatouttaHell · Post by **CatouttaHell** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:31 pm

I guess they wanted some awesome, incredibly powerful masters at the tournament but they wanted Goku to win still, so they had to settle for both. I like your theory of Paikuhan's technique being like the Kaio-ken. It fits with Goku losing the battle more and more and only winning when he caught Paikuhan completely off guard with a Kamehameha before he could react.

Yeah I don't see why people put Bojack all the way up to SPC level. He was like a wet piece of paper to SSjin 2 Gohan, and was having trouble with SSjin Gohan until he cheated by having his henchmen paralyse him and suppress his power.

p123 · Post by **p123** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:33 pm

If you are paying attention, you will notice SSJ Gohan using varying levels of effort...

Initial SSJ Gohan, fights evenly with Henchmen...

Yet, Henchmen quiver in freaking fear of SSJ Vegeta. Who gets stomped by Initial Bojack, who transforms, and fights evenly with henchemn against SSJ Gohan.

Lol. It's very illogical, when going by AT's rules, but TOEI works differently.

THe always assume full power rule I use for AT, simply does not work with TOEI...

CatouttaHell · Post by **CatouttaHell** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:47 pm

Well in the movies they can't have someone run off and train somewhere or gain any other kind of powerup, so they pretty much have to either use the Genki Dama for the thousandth time or have characters suppressing their powers constantly for some reason or another to make a full movie.

p123 · Post by **p123** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:51 pm

Agreed. Good point. I think they got their last zenkai in in Movie 5, because of not aware of what the future held in AT manga ( SSJs not getting zenkais ), and then were like shit, we can't use that anymore? Gah!

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:14 am

p123 wrote:You did well enough to beat my brother, doesn't seem like a fluke statement.. You did well enough to beat my brother IMO implies..

Base Goku Movie 5 = SSJ Goku ( Namek ) = 150 million

Freeza spends all his time at 530,000 in his first form. He'd never gone beyond his second form against anyone before Namek.

p123 · Post by **p123** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:32 pm

Implying that you know Freeza's power better than his own brother, is just meh...

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:50 pm

p123 wrote:Implying that you know Freeza's power better than his own brother, is just meh...

I know Freeza's power the same as his brother - that Freeza spends all his time at 530,000. Goku at 3,000,000 could easily kill Freeza on surprise alone in any of Freeza's first three forms.

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:25 pm

petewentz wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Well if one was to make power levels out of it using SEG boosts and all, then Kid Buu with South Kaioshin would not be simple addition, but rather a random multiplier.
And as for your first part, what do you mean KB with SK would be a random multiplier? Is that what is stated in the SEG guide? That would actually melp *MY* case out, in fact. My friends over at Pojo were operating under the assumption you add the power levels together, and thus you get your new Buu(I'm not arguing the use of real power levels anyway, which I find redundant and creates problems).

No it's not stated in the SEG, but since South Kaioshin is weaker than Gohan before getting his power drawn out beyond his limits, it wouldn't make much sense, if absorption of SK was simply adding his power on top of Pure(Kid, if you like) Buu.

Since there's a bunch of power gaps laid out in the manga. The most important one being Evil(or if you like: Super) Buu being weaker than Pure Buu with South Kaioshin absorbed.
If we go by SEG boosts and the statements from the manga then it'll probably be something like this:

Buff Buu = Stronger than Super Buu.
Super Buu/SSJ 3 Gotenks = About 8 times stronger than SSJ Gotenks.
SSJ Gotenks = Should be well above Goku based on Goku's comments, the implication that Majin Vegeta < base Gotenks pre, the implication that SSJ Gotenks pre < Base Gotenks post and the fact that Gotenks gets 50 times stronger, when going from base to SSJ, while Goku only gets 4 times stronger, when going from SSJ 2 to SSJ 3.

SSJ 3 Goku/Kid Buu = About 4 times stronger than SSJ 2 Goku.
SSJ 2 Goku = Stronger than Gohan
Gohan = Stronger than South Kaioshin
South Kaioshin = over 4 times weaker than Kid Buu.

Since I also believe that Goku's Battle Power multiplied by Vegeta's Battle Power = Vegetto's Battle Power, the gap ends up being enourmous.
So South Kaioshin ends up being a gigantic multiplier IMO.

It's my belief Super Buu is at least 8x stronger than Fat Buu based on ssj Gotenks being equal with Fat Buu(at least, definitely after the ROSAT) and then getting an 8x multiplier from ssj3(SEG) and then fighting evenly with Super Buu. The opponents claim that can't be possible, there's no way even Buff Buu would be 8x stronger than Kid Buu...which is where I run into my problem.

It's my belief that Super Buu is thousands of times stronger than Fat Buu, basically because I don't care about extremely huge power gaps anymore.
Even the more ridiculous ones which are primarily caused by Vegetto = Vegeta x Goku.

Fox666 · Post by **Fox666** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:50 pm

dbgtFO wrote:Buff Buu = Stronger than Super Buu.

I am not very sure if the original South Kaioshin absorbed Pure Boo would be stronger than Evil Boo.

The way I see, Evil Boo was gradually loosing his absorbed parts. The last one is Dai Kaioshin, which decreases the power. So it makes sense that he increased his power after Dai Kaioshin has gone.

But Evil Boo still had another Majin Boo inside him, besides the Kaioshins. So this form would not be a "South Kaioshin absorbed Pure Boo" but "Pure Boo and South Kaioshin absorbed Pure Boo".

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:08 pm

Fox666 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:Buff Buu = Stronger than Super Buu.
I am not very sure if the original South Kaioshin absorbed Pure Boo would be stronger than Evil Boo.

The way I see, Evil Boo was gradually loosing his absorbed parts. The last one is Dai Kaioshin, which decreases the power. So it makes sense that he increased his power after Dai Kaioshin has gone.

But Evil Boo still had another Majin Boo inside him, besides the Kaioshins. So this form would not be a "South Kaioshin absorbed Pure Boo" but "Pure Boo and South Kaioshin absorbed Pure Boo".

Well it's confirmed by Kaioshin that they are the same.

Herms wrote:When I think of "contradiction" I think of how Daizenshuu 2's "Growing Up" section mistakenly lists Super Saiyan Vegeta as first appearing in volume 32 when it was actually 29.

Why wasn't that pointed out in your translation of it?

Kanzenshuu

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