Fusion multiplier

petewentz · Post by **petewentz** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:03 pm

Hey, how's it going guys. I am just asking a real quick question on the fusion multiplier. Was there ever one given, officially? Doesn't matter if it was Daizenshuu or SEG or anything of that nature as long as it was official. I am coming up empty.

I assume the multiplier is a large one, obviously. I hate getting into "numbers" in the Buu Saga because quite frankly, there's no way numbers can work accurately. A good example was a thread on my main forum, Pojo where I basically stated that Super Buu was 8x stronger than Fat Buu, which is the logical assumption based on the official SEG multipliers and a few of Goku's statements. My opponent pointed out that there is no way South Kai himself would make Kid Buu 8x stronger, but I suppose he had to have, right?

Anyway, got off subject. I need to know if the fusion multiplier is ever given, officially.

THANKS!

Post by **Herms** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:13 pm

Nope.

Well, I suppose it depends on what you mean by "fusion". Metamorian Fusion doesn't have anything given, but the SEG: Story Volume says that Potara is like multiplying the two characters' battle power together.

petewentz · Post by **petewentz** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:14 pm

Herms wrote:Nope.

I heard your the king around these parts, Herms. Heard lots of stories about you, if you catch my drift

And uh, what's your take on the whole Super Buu 8x>Fat Buu? I'm correct in that assumption, right? Based on Gotenks strength and all that, right?

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:27 pm

petewentz wrote:And uh, what's your take on the whole Super Buu 8x>Fat Buu? I'm correct in that assumption, right? Based on Gotenks strength and all that, right?

We have a big currently-mostly-active thread about Gotenks here, where you can read a few different viewpoints on his power within the last couple pages.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:36 pm

Herms wrote:Well, I suppose it depends on what you mean by "fusion". Metamorian Fusion doesn't have anything given, but the SEG: Story Volume says that Potara is like multiplying the two characters' battle power together.

Wasn't it slightly vaguer than that? Maybe I'm remembering wrong or didn't see a complete translation of it.

petewentz · Post by **petewentz** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:44 pm

I was talking about Super Buu>Fat Buu. Gotenks is merely the means to prove that, but some of the math regarding Kid Buu and the absorption of Kais doesn't add up, despite Gotenks being a good gauge of power to gauge Super Buu.

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:16 am

petewentz wrote:I was talking about Super Buu>Fat Buu. Gotenks is merely the means to prove that, but some of the math regarding Kid Buu and the absorption of Kais doesn't add up, despite Gotenks being a good gauge of power to gauge Super Buu.

Well if one was to make power levels out of it using SEG boosts and all, then Kid Buu with South Kaioshin would not be simple addition, but rather a random multiplier.

And for fusion multipliers.
The only official one is Vegetto = Vegeta x Goku.
So Vegetto should be way above 9 trillion apparently.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:59 am

dbgtFO wrote:The only official one is Vegetto = Vegeta x Goku.

In the words of Kel Kimble: "You can't add things that aren't numbers!" Or multiply, as the case may be.

petewentz · Post by **petewentz** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:02 pm

dbgtFO wrote: Well if one was to make power levels out of it using SEG boosts and all, then Kid Buu with South Kaioshin would not be simple addition, but rather a random multiplier.

And for fusion multipliers.
The only official one is Vegetto = Vegeta x Goku.
So Vegetto should be way above 9 trillion apparently.

Yea, see that's interesting because it's so preposterous. I mean maybe his PL was that high...he could sustain himself after being turned into candy, that's a pretty substantial feat that gets under looked.

And as for your first part, what do you mean KB with SK would be a random multiplier? Is that what is stated in the SEG guide? That would actually melp *MY* case out, in fact. My friends over at Pojo were operating under the assumption you add the power levels together, and thus you get your new Buu(I'm not arguing the use of real power levels anyway, which I find redundant and creates problems).

It's my belief Super Buu is at least 8x stronger than Fat Buu based on ssj Gotenks being equal with Fat Buu(at least, definitely after the ROSAT) and then getting an 8x multiplier from ssj3(SEG) and then fighting evenly with Super Buu. The opponents claim that can't be possible, there's no way even Buff Buu would be 8x stronger than Kid Buu...which is where I run into my problem.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:01 pm

petewentz wrote:Yea, see that's interesting because it's so preposterous. I mean maybe his PL was that high...he could sustain himself after being turned into candy, that's a pretty substantial feat that gets under looked.

My opinion doesn't really mean much, but I've never taken that "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" thing literally. As far as I remember, all the guide said was: "Fusion isn't an addition, but is something as great as multiplication." Or something along those lines. To me it's just another way of saying that fusions are stronger than the sum of their parts put together, which we're told early on in the manga. Besides, unless it specifies that it's talking about Battle Powers or some other numerical unit, "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" is pretty nonsensical and malleable.

And as for your first part, what do you mean KB with SK would be a random multiplier? Is that what is stated in the SEG guide? That would actually melp *MY* case out, in fact. My friends over at Pojo were operating under the assumption you add the power levels together, and thus you get your new Buu(I'm not arguing the use of real power levels anyway, which I find redundant and creates problems).

I don't think any guide talks about how much stronger Buu gets from his absorptions. I see no reason that it has to be straight addition, at least, but can't think of any solid evidence against it being that way, either.

Fox666 · Post by **Fox666** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:30 pm

That for sure is hard to believe. That would make Vegetto's battle power over one quadrillion.

Despite that, why should the metamorian fusion not be a multiplication too? And what about Piccolo fusing with Nail and Kami?

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:44 pm

Fox666 wrote:Despite that, why should the metamorian fusion not be a multiplication too?

Well, the guide doesn't mention it by name, but I assume it works "like multiplication" as well. Viz's translation backed this up by having Goku say the result would be stronger than the sum of the fusees powers...but looking at the Strength Checker, it's not worded quite that way in Japanese. Piccolo's boost from Kami seems to be much more than just addition.

lash · Post by **lash** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:13 pm

Bussani wrote:Besides, unless it specifies that it's talking about Battle Powers or some other numerical unit, "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" is pretty nonsensical and malleable.

It does. It's battle power. I don't see a reason why it's nonsensical and malleable when Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto is as clear as the picture in the guide saying it. I haven't seen anything of merit to contradict the claim.

Fox666 wrote: Despite that, why should the metamorian fusion not be a multiplication too? And what about Piccolo fusing with Nail and Kami?

Simply put, they aren't the same fusion.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:29 pm

lash wrote:It does. It's battle power.

Do you have the guide and speak Japanese? No offense intended, but I'd like to hear from someone who does. Maybe I'll post about it in the translation request thread.

I don't see a reason why it's nonsensical and malleable when Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto is as clear as the picture in the guide saying it.

Notice I said "unless it specifies battle powers." If it does, then the formula isn't nonsensical and malleable. If it doesn't, then the formula is pretty worthless.

lash · Post by **lash** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:57 pm

Bussani wrote:
lash wrote:It does. It's battle power.
Do you have the guide and speak Japanese? No offense intended, but I'd like to hear from someone who does. Maybe I'll post about it in the translation request thread.

Herms wrote:...the power-up from merging isn’t a sum of the two’s battle powers, but rather as tremendous as multiplication.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:12 pm

Ah, okay then. I didn't remember it saying battle powers specifically.

Kingdom Heartless · Post by **Kingdom Heartless** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:00 pm

I guess all you can say is that trying to measure Vegetto's power in numbers is like trying to take the sun's temperature with a thermometer.

petewentz · Post by **petewentz** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:40 pm

Kingdom Heartless wrote:I guess all you can say is that trying to measure Vegetto's power in numbers is like trying to take the sun's temperature with a thermometer.

Great analogy. I like your name.

But, basically Vegito has nothing to do with this thread. Haha. I want to know if anyone agrees that Super Buu can be 8x stronger than Fat Buu and that the Kid Buu absorption of the Kais has no barring on this eventuality(because I'm like >80% sure that SB is that much stronger than FB)

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:18 am

petewentz wrote:I want to know if anyone agrees that Super Buu can be 8x stronger than Fat Buu and that the Kid Buu absorption of the Kais has no barring on this eventuality(because I'm like >80% sure that SB is that much stronger than FB)

"Can be?" Yeah, anything is possible.

But is he? Not necessarily. The way I see it, Gotenks and Super Boo are only working at roughly between 1.5x to 2x Goku's power. Wherein SSj Gotenks is comparable to but not stronger than the SSj2s before his stint in the Room of Spirit and Time, after which with his SSj3 he takes the definitive lead.

The implications about Gotenks' strength in the story are wild and muddled, at best, and while it's pretty much a sure thing that he's significantly stronger overall, I like the idea that he's not so far ahead that Goku can't conceivably catch up to him and Gohan and be "the best" again by the end of the manga. It just seems appropriate.

petewentz · Post by **petewentz** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:27 am

Kaboom wrote:"Can be?" Yeah, anything is possible.

But is he? Not necessarily. The way I see it, Gotenks and Super Boo are only working at roughly between 1.5x to 2x Goku's power. Wherein SSj Gotenks is comparable to but not stronger than the SSj2s before his stint in the Room of Spirit and Time, after which with his SSj3 he takes the definitive lead.

The implications about Gotenks' strength in the story are wild and muddled, at best, and while it's pretty much a sure thing that he's significantly stronger overall, I like the idea that he's not so far ahead that Goku can't conceivably catch up to him and Gohan and be "the best" again by the end of the manga. It just seems appropriate.

I posted links in the Gotenks thread, which I think applies towards this statement, but it seems to me that Goku states on multiple occasions that Gotenks>Buu or Gotenks>himself. Goku is of course referring to their ssj power, because he didn't know they could go ssj3(he is shocked, in disbelief when they do). Some people like to argue that Goku was referring to their base power, and was contradictorily wrong.

In my opinion though, why would Goku not be mentioning Gotenks max power, which in his mind would have been super saiyan(he knows both boys can transform)? If Goku was referring to their base, then he would have said something along the lines of "They can beat Buu, even normally!" or something of the sort. Goku also explicitly states that the fusion would result in Gotenks being stronger than himself.

I just see all the evidence leading to the conclusion that even SSJ Gotenks is comparable to SSJ3 Goku.

<Links to scanslations removed by moderator>

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Those are the scans from the previous thread. It just corroborates the evidence presented earlier in my post.

I'd also like to know where you get your claim that a ssj Gotenks is comparable to a ssj2? Is it from the anime filler?

Kanzenshuu

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