Vegeta's character and popularity

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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu May 05, 2011 4:38 pm

roidrage wrote:I really don't care what Vegeta did, since the events ended up being negated
I have to say I still don't get this mindset from you that it doesn't matter how ruthless and evil you are, as long as someone is there to clean up your messes for you. I mean, thinking like that, there's no reason to believe that ANY villain in the story is evil since all the good guys do their best to negate their effects too. I guess Majin Buu wasn't bad at all since Goku and the others negated his genocide and planet destroying. I guess Piccolo Daimao is a wonderful person because Yamucha and the others wished for everyone he killed to come back to life. So you really don't think that intent to murder is anything all that bad?

As for one of your later posts, yes, you're right. I can't see Vegeta doing anything else in the circumstances than what he did. But that's the problem! Who he is, what his characteristics are, are what make him a great villain, but they make him a lousy ally to our heroes. If Toriyama couldn't successfully interpret him into that role, he shouldn't have ever been put in that role.

And, yes, other characters do screw up and make bad decisions too. But none of them do it as purposefully, selfishly, and CONSISTENTLY as Vegeta. "Consistently" is the key. After the Freeza arc he's almost always making the worst decisions humanly possible. He's almost always the reason things turn to shit for our heroes. As I've said, he's much more useful to the enemies than to his supposed allies.
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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by roidrage » Thu May 05, 2011 5:09 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
roidrage wrote:I really don't care what Vegeta did, since the events ended up being negated
I have to say I still don't get this mindset from you that it doesn't matter how ruthless and evil you are, as long as someone is there to clean up your messes for you. I mean, thinking like that, there's no reason to believe that ANY villain in the story is evil since all the good guys do their best to negate their effects too. I guess Majin Buu wasn't bad at all since Goku and the others negated his genocide and planet destroying. I guess Piccolo Daimao is a wonderful person because Yamucha and the others wished for everyone he killed to come back to life. So you really don't think that intent to murder is anything all that bad?

As for one of your later posts, yes, you're right. I can't see Vegeta doing anything else in the circumstances than what he did. But that's the problem! Who he is, what his characteristics are, are what make him a great villain, but they make him a lousy ally to our heroes. If Toriyama couldn't successfully interpret him into that role, he shouldn't have ever been put in that role.

And, yes, other characters do screw up and make bad decisions too. But none of them do it as purposefully, selfishly, and CONSISTENTLY as Vegeta. "Consistently" is the key. After the Freeza arc he's almost always making the worst decisions humanly possible. He's almost always the reason things turn to shit for our heroes. As I've said, he's much more useful to the enemies than to his supposed allies.
If that's the case, then that's a fault of Toriyama as a writer; Vegeta was just staying in character in a forced role he was assigned. I see your problem, but your complaint is with the writing, not with Vegeta.

Vegeta becomes a good guy by the end, and he regrets playing the fool. Since he reforms and any damage he's done is undone, I don't see any point in holding it against him. Of all the villains who become heroes, his development was the most realistic and gradual.

What's interesting to me is how after all his fuck-ups, Vegeta actually ends the series having learned something. It took a long time for it to get into his thick head, but at least he got a little bit smarter. Goku? He didn't learn a thing. He doesn't care about his family any more than he did already, he doesn't look at fighting any differently, and now that he has about 1,000 years plus the natural Saiyan lifespan, he's probably going to waste it.

Unlike the other villains, or Goku, you can't say Vegeta didn't change, and because he did, why bring up his past, especially since most of it ended up being retconned?
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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by Michsi » Thu May 05, 2011 6:14 pm

roidrage wrote: Unlike the other villains, or Goku, you can't say Vegeta didn't change, and because he did, why bring up his past, especially since most of it ended up being retconned?
Why do so many feel the need to compare Vegeta to Goku in order to excuse his behaviour? "His past" is his role in the story and that's what I judge him by. I didn't see enough of him post Buu persona to suss out just how much better he got.

The fact that his development is supposedly "realistic" doesn't make him more likeable as a character for me. There are plenty of charatcers form other stories who did same or even worse in their respective universes but I found them more intriguing and interesting than what I was offered with Vegeta.

What makes me dislike Vegeta aren't his actions as much as his attitude. It's one thing to be full of your self and another to be so horrible short sighted.
He doesn't strike me as a war torn veteran (he is the oldest of the group) who's led a harsh life at the mercy of a galatic tyrant but as as someone who feels he has been cheated out of a glorious fate as the ruler of the strongest and most powerful race of warrios blabla. His desire to avenge his people would've impressed me more if I felt up until then that he had cared about his people, seeing as he had treated the only two remaining loyal saiyans as if they were trash. Sometimes I felt that the only reason he goes on and on about saiyan race and it's superiorty is because being one and being the prince just makes him feel better about himself.

He is cocky and calm when he believes he has the upper hand and turns into a raging whining mess once things no longer go his way.
I always like to use the fight against Cell as an example, the difference in his attitute before and after Cell reaches perfection. His entire being radiated "self satisfied" while he was handing Semi Perfect Cell his ass back to him, though he was complaining that Cell wasn't being a challenge worthy of him, but once the tables got turned and Cell actually was proving to be a challenge, the battle didn't seem as fun anymore. What I mean to say is that Vegeta likes to dominate in battle, likes to make it evident that he is better. This is what I believe is one of the things that sets him apart from Goku as a saiyan and as fighter, that in reality he doesn't like challenges as much as he doesn't like to be on the losing side, compared to Goku who goes looking for stronger opponents. I don't think Goku is as much in it for the win as he is for the fight and the challenge itself.
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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu May 05, 2011 6:31 pm

roidrage wrote:If that's the case, then that's a fault of Toriyama as a writer; Vegeta was just staying in character in a forced role he was assigned. I see your problem, but your complaint is with the writing, not with Vegeta.
I have to assume that, with a statement like that, you take criticisms towards Vegeta very personally. Although if I am incorrect in that assumption, forgive me for saying so. But that doesn't make what I'm about to say irrelevent. A problem with Vegeta and a problem with the writing are one and the same! Vegeta is fiction. He only exists through the writing of Toriyama. Anything Vegeta does, thinks, or experiences is a consequence of the writing. But you almost make it sound as if Vegeta is an actor, and that it's not his fault that he's forced to play the role that Toriyama wrote for him. But that really doesn't apply here. Vegeta is as he was designed to be, for better or worse. Criticizing one is criticizing the other because they are the same thing. My complaint is with the writing of the character of Vegeta. Therefore, my complaint is with Vegeta.
Unlike the other villains, or Goku, you can't say Vegeta didn't change, and because he did, why bring up his past, especially since most of it ended up being retconned?
What of his past was retconned? I think it's possible that you're misusing that word. In order for it to be retconned, it would have to be stated or implied not to exist. But as far as I can tell, there's no point in the series where we're supposed to expect that he was NEVER a ruthless member of a ruthless race whose job was to annihilate the inhabitants of planets. That's always a part of his story and history.

And my point in my post is that he DOESN'T change significantly until the very end of the story. If he was introduced in the Saiya-jin arc as a character who will murder innocent people on a whim, and, in the Buu arc, he's still being portrayed as a character who will murder innocent people on a whim, there isn't a lot of change there. The only thing that has changed is his station in life.
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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by Kingdom Heartless » Thu May 05, 2011 7:38 pm

I have to assume that, with a statement like that, you take criticisms towards Vegeta very personally.
This is something that sometimes (and not referring to anyone in particular) irks me. A lot of Vegeta fans take critisism of him very seriously, and tend to criticize characters like Goku and Gohan in response, as if them looking bad will make Vegeta look better.
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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by roidrage » Thu May 05, 2011 8:18 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
roidrage wrote:If that's the case, then that's a fault of Toriyama as a writer; Vegeta was just staying in character in a forced role he was assigned. I see your problem, but your complaint is with the writing, not with Vegeta.
I have to assume that, with a statement like that, you take criticisms towards Vegeta very personally. Although if I am incorrect in that assumption, forgive me for saying so. But that doesn't make what I'm about to say irrelevent. A problem with Vegeta and a problem with the writing are one and the same! Vegeta is fiction. He only exists through the writing of Toriyama. Anything Vegeta does, thinks, or experiences is a consequence of the writing. But you almost make it sound as if Vegeta is an actor, and that it's not his fault that he's forced to play the role that Toriyama wrote for him. But that really doesn't apply here. Vegeta is as he was designed to be, for better or worse. Criticizing one is criticizing the other because they are the same thing. My complaint is with the writing of the character of Vegeta. Therefore, my complaint is with Vegeta.
Unlike the other villains, or Goku, you can't say Vegeta didn't change, and because he did, why bring up his past, especially since most of it ended up being retconned?
What of his past was retconned? I think it's possible that you're misusing that word. In order for it to be retconned, it would have to be stated or implied not to exist. But as far as I can tell, there's no point in the series where we're supposed to expect that he was NEVER a ruthless member of a ruthless race whose job was to annihilate the inhabitants of planets. That's always a part of his story and history.

And my point in my post is that he DOESN'T change significantly until the very end of the story. If he was introduced in the Saiya-jin arc as a character who will murder innocent people on a whim, and, in the Buu arc, he's still being portrayed as a character who will murder innocent people on a whim, there isn't a lot of change there. The only thing that has changed is his station in life.
But, if the story had gone in an entirely different direction, with Vegeta once again becoming a full-blown villain, would you still have these criticisms? I think you have more of a problem with an author trying to force an unlikable character upon you, rather than the character themselves, and that you hate Vegeta not because of what he does, but because he got so much screen time and attention and was made to look sympathetic when you didn't find him sympathetic. I theorize this because I have a very similar problem with authors taking the sides of unlikable characters and trying to make them likable.

To your second point, Vegeta does change; he begins to care for his family (and when this care lapses, he regrets it) and he even develops concern for his allies. But he could care less about anybody who's not personally connected to him, and that's something I can sympathize with, and you can't. While I'm not about to go on a mass murder spree, I find it very difficult to care about strangers who I do not love and/or am not acquainted with, and I don't think I should have to. I defend that aspect of Vegeta's character, because I can sort of understand the base of that mentality, if not the extent to which he takes it.

Summing up, I think you hate Vegeta more because he's overexposed. I don't really care about him killing innocents, partially because they're portrayed as faceless idiots who were brought back to life anyway, and partially because I myself am not really concerned about anyone outside my "circle", whereas you are, and that's just where we differ as people. As for Vegeta's family, he lets them down no question, but he admits it, (which is a huge step), and does what he can to atone for it.
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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by Kingdom Heartless » Thu May 05, 2011 8:58 pm

I'm not sure I can get on board with this whole mentality... I mean, human life is precious, no matter how dimwitted or downright unlikeable a lot of people are. 90% of people in the real world can be considered "faceless," but practically every one of them are important to somebody. I know it seems silly to say things like that when you are only talking about cartoon characters, but I just don't particularly like the mentality about the importance of people you are displaying...

And as for being irritated by how much screentime he got, I know you weren't talking to me, but personally I have no problem with how much screen-time he got. It the fans who complain about every moment he wasn't the focus of attention, and who hate that other characters got more powerful than him.
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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by roidrage » Thu May 05, 2011 9:12 pm

Kingdom Heartless wrote:I'm not sure I can get on board with this whole mentality... I mean, human life is precious, no matter how dimwitted or downright unlikeable a lot of people are. 90% of people in the real world can be considered "faceless," but practically every one of them are important to somebody. I know it seems silly to say things like that when you are only talking about cartoon characters, but I just don't particularly like the mentality about the importance of people you are displaying...
I didn't want to talk about me, but felt like I had to as a means of explaining why I defend that aspect of Vegeta's character so stridently. I can't be expected to go around feeling everybody's pain, especially since I have no contact with the people in question. If I know you, you're in my circle, and I care. If not, it's unreasonable to expect me to care about you. In any event, we're not here to discuss my lack of empathy, we're here to discuss Vegeta.
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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Fri May 06, 2011 3:46 pm

Maphisto86 wrote:The critique Gaffer Tape created concerning Vegeta as a "villian turned good" and whether he really justified his presence or was truly rehabilitated after the Freeza saga would make a great main topic for the podcast. As for whether Vegeta actually ever turned good, well I would like to think so but I agree with Gaffer that Toriyama does not really make a good case for the guy. Then again Dragonball was never meant to be a "morality tale". Heck we all know how Son Goku is not exactly a paragon of nobility either but he is not as much a flawed hero as Vegeta is. I thought I saw hints of Vegeta having new found feelings of guilt over his past when I first saw the Buu saga as the anime but I did not know if that was accurate as the dub often changed the dialogue in a way unintended in the actual version.
Well, the story sure establishes that Vegeta's a "villain turned good". I mean, Porunga apparently doesn't deem him "extremely evil", and he expressed remorse for killing the innocent tournament bystanders in his wish to revive all those who'd died since the day of the tournament. Did he justify his presence? I don't know about that. Did Piccolo justify his presence? He's looked upon more kindly because he didn't do as much bad stuff as Vegeta. But it's an interesting topic.

Talking of which, we could talk about Goku's purity too. I mean, the guy's selfish, we know that. He spares people like Piccolo and Vegeta so he can selfishly put Earth and innocent citizens at risk to fight them again. Yet he's still able to ride Kinto'un (the last time he's seen riding it is in the Freeza arc, on the way to his spaceship). And I don't think it's about being naive and stuff, because he knew damn well what he was doing and even ended up regretting it later when he found out that Vegeta was on Namek with Kuririn, Gohan and Bulma.
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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by SylentEcho » Fri May 06, 2011 5:58 pm

Yet he's still able to ride Kinto'un (the last time he's seen riding it is in the Freeza arc, on the way to his spaceship).
What? When did this happen?

Another point people here are missing is that Vegeta acted the way he did because he was on a planet where he couldn't understand anyone's behaviour. He's from a planet where everyone, men and women thirst for battle. Suddenly he's on Earth where men are laughing and joking with each other, women are acting all girly and the only guy he could possibly connect to, the last Saiyan Goku is not acting much like a Saiyan at all.

Not only that, Vegeta was a prince and nobody cares about this at all! Not that they should, but I'm just looking at it from Vegeta's point of view. Vegeta living on earth with the earthlings is like you going to your grandmas house and she keeps kissing you on the cheeks with her wet lipstick, pulling your cheeks saying how big you've grown for an hour. You'd get pretty pissed off after a point right?

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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by Maphisto86 » Sat May 07, 2011 1:41 am

SylentEcho wrote:
Yet he's still able to ride Kinto'un (the last time he's seen riding it is in the Freeza arc, on the way to his spaceship).
What? When did this happen?

Another point people here are missing is that Vegeta acted the way he did because he was on a planet where he couldn't understand anyone's behaviour. He's from a planet where everyone, men and women thirst for battle. Suddenly he's on Earth where men are laughing and joking with each other, women are acting all girly and the only guy he could possibly connect to, the last Saiyan Goku is not acting much like a Saiyan at all.

Not only that, Vegeta was a prince and nobody cares about this at all! Not that they should, but I'm just looking at it from Vegeta's point of view. Vegeta living on earth with the earthlings is like you going to your grandmas house and she keeps kissing you on the cheeks with her wet lipstick, pulling your cheeks saying how big you've grown for an hour. You'd get pretty pissed off after a point right?
Didn't Vegeta state to Dodoria that he did not care about his race or his parent's fate? I am somewhat surprised by this as Vegeta throughout the series is proud of being the prince of his race yet the destruction of his homeworld along with most of his potential kingdom pretty much destroyed what importance his royal title would afford. Even though Vegeta was not the only Saiyan survivor, either gaining immortality or no, his kingdom was reduced to three other individuals. Heck even counting the other survivors in the movies and other supplementary material, Vegeta's role as prince is negligible. Despite this obvious fact, Vegeta is incredibly self-centered, even for a ruthless Saiyan warrior. As long as he lives, "Prince" Vegeta has always felt his destiny was to be the best warrior in the universe (at least until his reformation at the end of the Buu saga).

In my point of view Vegeta was another "dark counterpart" to Goku, symbolising the opposite of the protagonist even more so then Tullece did in DBZ Movie #3. Son Goku was more "human" in psychological sense, creating a mental hybrid between the Saiyan who longs for a good fight and the humble student attempting to improve himself. Vegeta on the other hand is a product of the pure but corrupt culture of the Saiyans (not to mention a little bit of Freeza's influence as well). Only the likes of King Piccolo, Freeza and Kid Buu seem to provoke Goku's rage and even then he showed a "good sport" mentality towards them when beaten. While somewhat naive, Goku's willingness to spare his enemies is one of his more endearing traits. Vegeta on the other hand . . .
Both of these characters are single minded in their persuit of power but for different reasons.

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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by Eire » Sat May 07, 2011 1:56 am

Didn't Vegeta state to Dodoria that he did not care about his race or his parent's fate?
You expected him to sit and cry? I don't say that he was selfish and irrational, but in the face of the enemy it was just rational to show himself as guy who didn't care. I'd worry about him more when he said he didn't care about Raditz: hello boy, there were 2 people calling you a prince without insulting you and one of them had just died.
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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by SylentEcho » Sat May 07, 2011 3:09 am

Still, it's quite sad to see the witty, analytical minded Vegeta being reduced to a guy that just said two things, "I'm the Saiyan Prince. " and "I'm a super elite." It made him look no different than Broli from Movie 10.

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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by Eire » Sat May 07, 2011 3:15 am

Don't go so far, he was still able to say a proper sentence.
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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by SylentEcho » Sat May 07, 2011 10:00 am

I know, but you get the gist of what I'm trying to say. He never used his brains at all during the entire Cell arc and for the major part of the Majin arcs.

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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by hleV » Sat May 07, 2011 1:09 pm

SylentEcho wrote:I know, but you get the gist of what I'm trying to say. He never used his brains at all during the entire Cell arc and for the major part of the Majin arcs.
If the difference between his and opponent powers in Boo arc would have been the same as in Freeza arc, a plan might have worked. But now, Vegeta was either too confident or too underpowered in Boo arc.

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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by Maphisto86 » Sat May 07, 2011 10:14 pm

Eire wrote:
Didn't Vegeta state to Dodoria that he did not care about his race or his parent's fate?
You expected him to sit and cry? I don't say that he was selfish and irrational, but in the face of the enemy it was just rational to show himself as guy who didn't care. I'd worry about him more when he said he didn't care about Raditz: hello boy, there were 2 people calling you a prince without insulting you and one of them had just died.
Of course not. Vegeta was already established as a ruthless, goal driven man prior to his battle with Dodoria. It just becomes apparent from his comment that he was less interested in destroying Freeza for revenge and more so to not only free himself from being a lackey but more importantly in his eyes to become the most powerful being there is. Compare this to Son Goku who has similar goals but still cares about his friends and family (although sometimes his actions jeporadized their safety).
Eire wrote:Don't go so far, he was still able to say a proper sentence.
Actually I found DBZ Movie #8 to be one of Vegeta's worse moments. It is rare to see the guy act cowardly even against tough opponents. The only other person I can remember Vegeta attempted to flee from was Freeza (and the only one in the canon storyline but I am not sure). Oh and Broly was actually pretty chatty in that film before he became almost mute in Movie 10 and 11.

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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by Eire » Sun May 08, 2011 1:54 am

Actually I found DBZ Movie #8 to be one of Vegeta's worse moments. It is rare to see the guy act cowardly even against tough opponents.
At least a difference from normal behaviour that shows us the seriousness of the situation.
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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by Michsi » Sun May 08, 2011 3:28 am

Actually I really like movie 8 because it deliberatley made him more vurnerable as a chararcter. It maches perfectly with my impression of him and what I said about his attitude when he faces a strong opponent. But he overcomes it somewhat. And I think this side of him does change later one. I think he becomes much braver during and after Buu.

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Re: Vegeta's character and popularity

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Sun May 08, 2011 7:21 am

SylentEcho wrote:
Yet he's still able to ride Kinto'un (the last time he's seen riding it is in the Freeza arc, on the way to his spaceship).
What? When did this happen?
After he was healed by Yajirobe's Senzu in the hospital, he changed into the gi that Kaio sent him and jumped on Kinto'un to check out the spaceship that Dr. Brief was building for him to go to Namek.
Maphisto86 wrote:Actually I found DBZ Movie #8 to be one of Vegeta's worse moments. It is rare to see the guy act cowardly even against tough opponents. The only other person I can remember Vegeta attempted to flee from was Freeza (and the only one in the canon storyline but I am not sure). Oh and Broly was actually pretty chatty in that film before he became almost mute in Movie 10 and 11.
Well, it was basically just to big up Broli's role as the Legendary Super Saiyan, something which Vegeta had idolized all his life and strived to become. It was the closest to a god for the Saiyans. Although I do find it to be out-of-character for Vegeta, since he's become far more powerful than what he percieved to be a Super Saiyan's power...and yet he just pussies out after Broli tanks his blast like nothing. But it was kind of funny to see Vegeta degraded to this snivelling coward; a stark contrast to the proud, egotistical prince that he always was.

And, just in case you didn't know, Vegeta attempting to flee from Freeza was filler. And you're right, Broli was pretty chatty in Movie #8, taunting his opponents and stuff. In Movie #10 and #11, all he basically said was "KAKARROT!"
Eire wrote:
Didn't Vegeta state to Dodoria that he did not care about his race or his parent's fate?
You expected him to sit and cry? I don't say that he was selfish and irrational, but in the face of the enemy it was just rational to show himself as guy who didn't care. I'd worry about him more when he said he didn't care about Raditz: hello boy, there were 2 people calling you a prince without insulting you and one of them had just died.
We have no reason to assume that Vegeta didn't mean what he said, considering his personality and the fact that he blatantly didn't care about Raditz or Nappa (he killed the latter because he deemed him worthless when he was rendered incapable to fight). He could've just said, "I was just angry for being used by the likes of you!", and not said that he didn't care about his race or parents. It's been proved time after time that Vegeta only cares about himself. Even if he does always blab about how he's the Prince of the Saiyans, that he's proud to be a Saiyan and whatnot, it's evident that he believes everyone are inferior to him.
Last edited by Piccolo Daimao on Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

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