Vegeta's character and popularity

[Piccolo Daimao]

Many people, like myself, like Vegeta in the Freeza arc the most because that was really his introductory arc. Before that, he was the main villain and the final boss. In the Freeza arc, we see more of his character, and he's sneaky and merciless as he double-crosses his former master, Freeza. And perhaps it's worth mentioning his death scene, which many fans like.

But even though, IMO, his character kind of went downhill in the Cell arc, because of his insufferable, constant whining about wanting to defeat Son Goku and his stupidity in his egotistical actions, it seems that this was what made him very popular for a lot of fans, because he was officially made a main character and began to develop at the end of the Cell arc.

What are your thoughts?

[SylentEcho]

Vegeta's cunning and leadership skills, not to mention his wit are showcased very well in the Namek arc. This is why it remains one of my favourite arcs if not my favourite.

The Namek arc was all about Vegeta and less about Freeza, his lackeys or Goku training. We see how fearsome Freeza actually is, but also see how fast Vegeta grows in strength which makes us the viewers root for Vegeta as well. I'm sure every fan just dreamt of a Goku - Vegeta team up at the time.

Filler like the one where Vegeta gets injured while training and dreams about SSJ Goku and Trunks going further and further away from him made viewers take a stronger liking to him because by that point most of us actually got where he was coming from being all frustrated about not reaching SSJ.

I feel his crowning moment was when he kicked Goku towards Piccolo and defeated Number 19 and scared the living daylights out of Dr. Gero. I feel the Cell arc also gives him credit for being an elite because there's a few instances where he deciphers on his own that Gohan has what it takes to face Cell on equal ground. His Cell ending was sad though because he was just empty after Goku died.

[SSJmole]

Vegeta is my favourite. Ruthless Vegeta to Moustache GT Vegeta and everything in between. What I love about him though, Out of all the characters he is the most human. I don't mean power wise I mean character wise.

The reason I say he is the most human is simply how flawed he is. Goku, Gohan and the rest all seem to be either "Perfect" or "comic relief" Vegeta is not. He is arrogant, He's aggressive, He falls in love with a woman he clearly hated, He makes the wrong choices at times and he know it!

Yes out of all the characters he is the most intelligent, battle wise. That is when he stays calm. But his intelligence is not over the top in fact it shows what he could be like if he stayed focused.

People say he was whining about Goku. But I don't see that way. He was proud, he was taught to be the best. All his life he was the best. Then he met Goku. Goku raised the bar for him in terms of what a Saiyan could do. It's only natural and human for him to hate him for it.

Take real life. Let's say you play football. You played it great all your life. You were the star player on every team you played for. It would not take long for that to be your entire identity. Then if someone came along who played better than you, You'd resent them for it.

That's what happened to Vegeta. He lost who he was. And for someone as proud as him they will deal with it like a death. Look at the stages of grieving :

Denial - Frieza saga : Think about it. He spends the entire saga pretty much, shrugging off what happened on earth. Calling himself "Elite" or "Super Saiyan" as if it wasn't really registering in his head that he lost. He was at the first stage.

Anger - Androids , Cell : Again think about it. He first shops up during battle with Androids as a super saiyan. He got that way by been angry at himself , at goku and at everything else. This saga he was angrier faster than any other saga. He was at this stage.

Bargaining - Majin saga. Look at what happened. He literally made a deal with Babidi. Majin Vegeta was born. Later on he says good bye to trunks and self destructs. Another bargaining as was trying to get to heaven.

Depression - Buu : Before the end plan, He spends a lot of it giving in. More than once he says "We can't beat him." (Not an exact quote) But Vegeta an arc ago, when he couldn't beat Cell still tried. He seemed sad. Like he was depressed. At least that's my take on the events.

Acceptance - The end : His plan to save everyone involved Goku saving the day, He gave him the thumbs up. They even become friends as seen after Buu when Vegeta and Bulma pretty much stop by for a casual chat with Goku. Vegeta had accepted Goku as stronger. This is when you see a softer more at peace Vegeta.


Yes later on in GT and specials he's less at peace. But most non-canon. Vegeta is the deepest of the dragonball fighters. That makes him the easiest to relate to. That's why I like vegeta. I said at the start he was the most human. That's what I meant.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Goku, Gohan and the rest all seem to be either "Perfect" or "comic relief"

I agree with the "comic relief" part - for example, Kame-sennin, although he's not just "comic relief"; he has more depth and personality to his character than that. But not the "perfect" part. Goku's love for battle is pointed out as a character flaw a number of times, Gohan kills his father as a result of playing around with Cell, Kuririn's boner for #18 gets in the way of saving the planet, etc.

[SSJmole]

Goku, Gohan and the rest all seem to be either "Perfect" or "comic relief"

I agree with the "comic relief" part - for example, Kame-sennin, although he's not just "comic relief"; he has more depth and personality to his character than that. But not the "perfect" part. Goku's love for battle is pointed out as a character flaw a number of times, Gohan kills his father as a result of playing around with Cell, Kuririn's boner for #18 gets in the way of saving the planet, etc.

True. But I what I meant was perfect compared to real life people. 1 flaw is still perfect compared to real life people. Vegeta is just very flawed but with a reason. It's great.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Goku, Gohan and the rest all seem to be either "Perfect" or "comic relief"

I agree with the "comic relief" part - for example, Kame-sennin, although he's not just "comic relief"; he has more depth and personality to his character than that. But not the "perfect" part. Goku's love for battle is pointed out as a character flaw a number of times, Gohan kills his father as a result of playing around with Cell, Kuririn's boner for #18 gets in the way of saving the planet, etc.

True. But I what I meant was perfect compared to real life people. 1 flaw is still perfect compared to real life people. Vegeta is just very flawed but with a reason. It's great.

Well, no-one is perfect, not in real-life or DB. I was talking about "Mary Sue" perfect, with no flaws at all.

[Ahiru77]

Vegeta is funny sometimes......in the dub. Never rooted for him in anything though.

[Herms]

In the Freeza arc we've still got his constant, insufferable whining about Super Saiyans and in the Saiyan arc he keeps going on about how he's super-elite and everyone else is trash blah blah blah. And he does plenty of dumb, arrogant stuff in those arcs too: letting Piccolo and co. go through with their attack on Nappa, standing around waiting for Goku to show up, toying with Goku until he used the Kaio-ken, standing around laughing while Zarbon transformed, ordering Freeza to transform too, figuring he was invincible after that last power-up. I don't think he goes down hill quite so much in the android arc and later; he was living pretty low on the hill to begin with.

[Scorpio Kardia]

Vegeta always had a big ego, it's like Herms said his pride and ego were the main reason why he made so many mistakes in the first place.

In the Namek saga he only looks smart because Zarbon and Freeza were pretty dumb to begin with, i mean why let Appule out of all people to stay and guard Vegeta? Even if he was unconscious...

But on the matter of his popularity i can see why he is so popular amongst Dragon Ball fans, he personifies what a lot of people consider to be "cool". He's not a bad boy, he acts like he is better than others around him and he considers himself to be the "Crème de la corp"...

So it's easy to see how he would grow in the hearts of so many Dragon Ball fans.

[Piccolo Daimao]

In the Freeza arc we've still got his constant, insufferable whining about Super Saiyans and in the Saiyan arc he keeps going on about how he's super-elite and everyone else is trash blah blah blah. And he does plenty of dumb, arrogant stuff in those arcs too: letting Piccolo and co. go through with their attack on Nappa, standing around waiting for Goku to show up, toying with Goku until he used the Kaio-ken, standing around laughing while Zarbon transformed, ordering Freeza to transform too, figuring he was invincible after that last power-up. I don't think he goes down hill quite so much in the android arc and later; he was living pretty low on the hill to begin with.

In the Saiyan arc, he didn't go on about how he was a super-elite quite as much as his whining about Super Saiyan and wanting to defeat Goku in the Freeza and Cell arcs respectively, although that could be because he only began fighting late in the arc. Although I agree with you about Vegeta's constant, insufferable whining about Super Saiyan in the Freeza arc. He appeared to be going back-and-forth as to whether or not he or Goku was a Super Saiyan, and after Gohan attacked Freeza, thought that Gohan could become one.

But I think that he went downhill in the Cell arc because of how glaring his stupid actions were in comparison to the previous ones, although perhaps the fact that that he's kind of on the good guys' side plays a part. In the Saiyan arc, I don't think he cared whether or not Piccolo and co.'s attack succeeded on Nappa, considering how nonchalant he seemed and actually said that he hoped it worked. And Freeza would've transformed anyway, since he was pretty much even with Freeza.

In the Cell arc, he stupidly lets himself have his ki absorbed by #19 and then has to bluff his way out of fighting with #20, which Piccolo somehow sees as "genius". And then there's his infamous decision to let Cell absorb #18.

I can see your point, though. I suppose that the good stuff that Vegeta did in the Freeza arc (e.g. his double-crossing of Freeza, his sneaky nature, how he methodically kills Freeza's soldiers) kinda makes up for the bad stuff and makes him more interesting, while in the Cell arc, there isn't really any good stuff (I'm not counting defeating enemies), and he mostly just screws over the good guys.

[Cipher]

I'm just going to repost two old things I've written on Vegeta:

Okay, Vegeta in the Cell arc.

Let's make one thing clear. I love Vegeta on Namek; he's a fantastic character. I hate him in the Cell arc and mid-Buu arc; he's whiny and irritating and has no sense of strategy.

That said, I disagree with the common attitude that his character was needlessly altered. I think every part of his change in attitude makes sense. Let's walk through the whole thing.

On Earth and early Namek, we're introduced to an honor-less Vegeta who will do whatever it takes to survive and win. Stealing Dragon Balls, dodging Freeza, picking off weak foes, transforming into Oozaru to crush a single man, blind-siding Ghourd, teaming up with and betraying the Earthlings, etc. That's all good.

The first instance of his more bone-headed side comes up when he finally thinks he has the upper-hand in strength against Freeza, and he goads him to transform. I'm not seeing anything unreasonable yet; he and Goku have both become unfathomably strong over the course of the arc, the strongest their race has ever seen, and he thinks (reasonably) that he may be on the cusp of attaining a legendary power idolized since he was a child.

Of course, Freeza wrecks him, and subsequently wrecks Piccolo, and in the midst of Freeza's final transformation, Vegeta pulls out a bit of cunning again and has Krillin manipulate his Saiyan trait of near-death power-ups. Afterwords, we see unreasonably cocky Vegeta again because, come on, if he didn't achieve Super Saiyan earlier, surely he's done it this time, and he's finally got a shot at defeating the single greatest antagonist of his life.

And then he dies, seemingly coming to terms with his failure and finding relief in the fact that Goku might succeed. This is, to many fans, the end of Vegeta's proper development.

Now, hold on. Before we get to Vegeta's full-on, post-revival, cocky asshole stage, let's look at Goku in the Piccolo, Saiyan and Namek arcs. Goku is a full-on dick, and it only gets worse as the series progresses. He hands Piccolo, the all-powerful demon king, a senzu bean so that they can continue their rivalry. He tells Krillin to let Vegeta go just so they can fight again, which he speculates is because of his Saiyan fighting instinct (this applies to Vegeta's actions later). Finally, he goads Freeza into fully powering up so that he can have a true warrior's victory, without regrets. Upon returning to Earth, he agrees with Vegeta that they should avoid finding Gero's lab so that they can try their hand against the Androids, knowingly endangering thousands of innocents. So just remember that when Vegeta's sitting back letting Cell find #18, Goku was doing this kind of thing for three full story arcs. Presumable explanation: they're Saiyans. Alternate explanation: they're Saiyans and they're also kind of dicks, but at least Vegeta doesn't particularly stand out in this regard.

So that should go some way toward justifying Vegeta in the Cell arc. Another is the general lack of strategy that the Cell arc allows for. There are two goals in this arc: defeat the Androids by becoming stronger, and defeat Cell by becoming stronger. There are no armies to avoid, no Dragon Balls to hide, etc. The name of the game for every single character is power, and Vegeta's just playing along.

But by far the strongest additional rationale is that he's had the rug completely pulled out from under him. He was content to pass the torch to Goku when he was on death's doorstep. But revived? What possible purpose does he have in life when he came so close to achieving legend and watched his greatest rival get there first? Then Freeza comes to Earth, and Vegeta watches from a far as yet another anonymous fighter finishes the job. That's like Bruce Wayne watching someone else arrest his parents' killer. And then when he finally, finally catches up to them and achieves Super Saiyan, he finds out it's just not good enough anymore. What else can he do, with these rivals, in this power-driven situation, but devote himself to becoming stronger? And then letting Cell become complete? Well, that's just the same Saiyan dickery we've been watching Goku engage in since the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

It's not like it lasts, either. We see by the Buu arc that he's well and settled down in seven years' time. Until you get to the whole Majin Vegeta thing, at least. But what can you expect? The man who turned his world upside down on Namek died, permanently shutting the book on Vegeta regaining his self-worth. He finds out he's coming back to Earth for one day and thinks, finally, I can redeem myself. It's not in an unfriendly way, either. Then their day of competition gets hijacked to stop some plot which, as far as he can see by the enemies they've been encountering and the Kaioshin's lack of foresight, shouldn't be a threat at all. And on top of all that, Goku may be stronger than previously imagined. So he conveniently uses Babidi's magic to 1) forcibly pull everyone's attention away from the seemingly worthless Kaioshin business and 2) give him more of a fighting chance against Goku. And he explains full well to Goku during their fight why he doesn't believe Buu will be a threat. The Kaioshin has been constantly surprised at how strong they are, and they've been blowing away warriors that terrify him like nothing. He says, outright, that his suspicions have been confirmed that they're the strongest people in existence; no reason to believe that Buu should be any different.

So, yeah. Vegeta after Namek isn't a particularly enjoyable character, but I don't believe for a second that his changes are unrealistic or ungrounded.

That's pretty much it. Vegeta only seems particularly stupid because the story doesn't magically play out in favor of his mistakes as it does with Goku.

Goku gives the demon king a senzu bean, and he ends up becoming good and defending the Earth.
Goku spares Vegeta, and he saves everyone's life on Namek.
Goku lets Freeza power up, and he fully crushes his ego and gets to learn wacky techniques in space afterward.
Goku lets Majin Buu go and ... well, honestly, this doesn't go so well, but he gets to come back in at the end of the arc for a full redemption.

Vegeta, on the other hand, lets Cell become complete and immediately gets his ass kicked.

And just to add to my discussion of post-Namek Vegeta, use this analogy. You've been training your entire life to get a black belt in karate. Just before you're finally so, so close, two nameless nobodies come in and get it like it's nothing. Then when you finally obtain it, after all that work, everyone comes in and says, "Black belt? Eh, that's not really so great anymore. We really need black belt 2 now." Hell, even Piccolo in the Cell arc comes right up to Vegeta and is all like, "Oh, you became a Super Saiyan? Yeah, I merged with Kami and did better than that like it ain't no thang." So you work your ass off and get your black belt 2 or whatever, only you find out that yours is frayed at the ends and your rival's nine-year-old son just made a perfect one out of nowhere. Then the school closes down, denying you a chance to ever catch up to them. And on the one day it re-opens years later, someone you've never met before starts stealing everyone's attention for his personal, over-dramaticized business. Can you help it if you just have to get up on a table and shout "Can we please get back to what we came here for?"

You'd be pretty angry too. It's like God just woke up one morning and decided it would be funny to mess with Vegeta. Considering that he's a personal friend of Goku, that's actually not unlikely.

In the end, Vegeta's character arc is the most soberingly realistic of the entire series. He doesn't get the typical shonen message of "Try hard and you can do anything." Instead, at the end of the Buu arc, his redemption is realizing that sometimes hard work's just not good enough, and that life isn't fair. The best bet is just to focus on being the best you can be and not comparing yourself to others. It's easy to see why he did spend so much time comparing himself to others though.

[Nineteen]

To be honest, I much prefer his character later in the series than in the Freeza arc. Freeza-era Vegeta whines constantly, to the point of tears. I thought he seemed much more grounded after he ascended.

[Kingdom Heartless]

In the Freeza arc we've still got his constant, insufferable whining about Super Saiyans and in the Saiyan arc he keeps going on about how he's super-elite and everyone else is trash blah blah blah. And he does plenty of dumb, arrogant stuff in those arcs too: letting Piccolo and co. go through with their attack on Nappa, standing around waiting for Goku to show up, toying with Goku until he used the Kaio-ken, standing around laughing while Zarbon transformed, ordering Freeza to transform too, figuring he was invincible after that last power-up. I don't think he goes down hill quite so much in the android arc and later; he was living pretty low on the hill to begin with.

Thank you.... so much. I honestly feel that some people are deluded about the character's personality.

I like the character, but don't understand why people love him to the extent of thinking he was ripped off in the story, when he was an arc villain who was lucky to kept around at all.

He wasn't flawed, he was an asshole. An arrogant, genocidal asshole, yet people make out like he should have ended up getting all the power, and pity him because his free ride of power comes to the end when somebody who actually worked for it enters his life. Yes, Freeza controlled him, but he made his own decisions and loved to kill.

Don't get me wrong, I like that Toriyama used him the way he did, I was able to genuinely feel for him and like him as a character a few times. But in the end, he was a character who was so far beyond redemption that it's hard to consider him some kind of hero.

[SylentEcho]

I agree, but you've also got to feel for him because as Cipher pointed out there, Goku has done way more stupid things than Vegeta has and yet nothing bad ever happens to him. One has to agree that Vegeta almost always gets the short end of the stick.

[Silver Sinspawn]

I think the problem with Vegeta is he sees too much attention from fans, and in the story in general. He has more character development than Tien and Piccolo put together, both were major characters.
Also, he's absolutely ravaged by fans. Some of the things I see are ridiculous. He may well be more popular than Goku.

[Michsi]

I was talking about "Mary Sue" perfect, with no flaws at all.

You'd be surprised to find out how many times I've seen Goku being referred as one

Goku has done way more stupid things than Vegeta has and yet nothing bad ever happens to him.

While I agree that Goku has done pretty stupid things, I don't agree with "way more". He never went as far as to give an enemy power on a silver platter. Also I don't understand why people feel the need to excuse his actions by pointing out Goku's (I'm not referring to the post above or this thread or this site alone here). What I don't like about Vegeta as a character aren't his actions as much as his attitude. For all the stupid things he does, Goku at least has some redeemable charater traits while Vegeta has far less IMO. Also there is one thing that happens with Goku that NEVER happened with Vegeta: he got chewed out and it sunk in. He was about to jump in and help Gohan because he realised what he'd done.
Was Vegeta ever blamed for what he did by other other characters except Piccolo?

I actually wrote a pretty big post but I realized it looked to much like bashing and while still think I brought up some valid points that's not what I wanted. But I'll keep on thing :

While the Buu Saga contains his worst moment, it als has his best, and I think I might have warmed up to him a little more if I had gotten to see a little more of his post Buu Saga persona. He seems to have settled and clamed down considerably and I would have liked to see him in action as he is then.
The alternative ending of the manga that has him voice out his desire to defeat Goku one day negates all the positive impression I had of him simply because it's that side of him that surfaced whenever he helped the shit to hit the fan and it reminded me a little too much of how he was before his true turning point, when he sacrificed himself to defeat Buu. In the original ending of the manga he was layed back and amused at Goku and more importantly he seemed to have gotten over his obsession of defeating Goku and the alternative ending takes that all away, not to mention ruins the entire jovial, bitter sweet feeling by having the whole story end on that note.

[Kingdom Heartless]

I agree, but you've also got to feel for him because as Cipher pointed out there, Goku has done way more stupid things than Vegeta has and yet nothing bad ever happens to him. One has to agree that Vegeta almost always gets the short end of the stick.

I can't agree with that. Being basically exiled from your home for seven years, while doesn't seem like something that bad in the Dragon Ball world, isn't exactly ideal.

I mean, whatever happened to Vegeta that was so bad? Goku got plenty of beatings that were as bad as any Vegeta got, including one that was delivered by Vegeta himself.

People complain about Goku getting to 3 million through "bullshit power ups," after he got there through extreme training and about 8 zenkais, while Vegeta got close to Freeza with like 4 zenkais and no proper training.

Again, what exactly happened to Vegeta that was so bad? He was a villain that ended up with a family who gave him (often undeserved) love, he ended up like the 3rd most powerful of the warriors and he was basically accepted by the people who he spent years wanting to kill.

Goku has had plenty of bad things happen to him... he just lets them slide a lot more than Vegeta.

[Kirby456]

I liked Vegetas character all the way till the end of Z. He was the series main Anti Hero and his development as a character was realistic.

[Eire]

I mean, whatever happened to Vegeta that was so bad?

Being a slave to person who wiped out your race can bring many damages to your physic.

[Michsi]

I mean, whatever happened to Vegeta that was so bad?

Being a slave to person who wiped out your race can bring many damages to your physic.

Why do people say he was Freeza's slave? He seemed to be given a lot of freedom for a slave, running around and going where he wanted and doing what he wanted. To me it appeared that Freeza was his boss, not his master.