I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

[SuperForteX]

It's not just the English translation, though, is it? Do they have Ginyu say "I'm also the type of human who can change my battle power" in the Spanish translation? Or the German? Or the French? You'd think this would have come to light so long ago.

Somehow, I doubt it, but I'm not going to pretend to know.

[Fox666]

That argument doesn't serve as solid evidence, that's all I can tell you

[Herms]

Herms is probably the first person that was compelled to point it out.

Pretty sure Oliver Hague made a note of it before I did, during one of the interminable arguments over Tenshinhan's ancestry.

How do Simmons' subtitles handle things? Like with Vegeta talking about Oozaru, Ginyu talking about his BP-changing powers, or the androids saying Goku is the strongest of humans?

When it comes to that, probably one of the reasons this flies under the radar is simply because many of the lines in question are more naturally translated into English by leaving out the ningen part altogether. Literally Ginyu says he's the "type of human who can control his battle power", but it's easier to just translate it as "I can control my battle power". Goku saying "I ain't a human who's even supposed to be here" can be more simply rendered as "I ain't even supposed to be here", without losing anything of importance save to super-nitpicky people like me. Etc.

[SuperForteX]

Does Ginyu say the Japanese word 'ningen' in that line in the anime? Or does Goku say I'm not the type of 'ningen' that's supposed to be here in the anime?

[Eddie]

Super ForteX, is there some sort of reason that you think the entire community is making shit up? This is a community frequented by several people that know a helluva lot more than you or I about the japanese language. Herms spent time in Japan. Julian has a family and lives there. Steve Simmons (cool guy that did the Funi Z & GT subs) is a member. How can you possibly think that nobody here is telling you accurate things? As for your "Did the fans in Japan talk about this? Why are these "translations" new?" argument, let me give you a little list:

1. Dragon Ball is very old. The internet was not what it is today. There was very little communication between the Japanese fans and Americans on DB issues. We really don't know what they were talking about. Perhaps they did discuss the use of "ningen" in Dragon Ball. We have no way of knowing.

2. Older US fans weren't exactly dealing with phenomenal translations. They had other things to discuss, like 19 being a candy ass faggot and the ramifications of Vegeta losing his fucking house.

3. Despite Dragon Ball being old, official translations of certain material was not available for a very long time in the US. Some episodes/movies have only been available for several years.

4. Some material does not have an official translation. A limited amount of fans actually understand how to translate it. An even fewer number of them have the desire to work on this stuff and give it a thorough analysis. Some of these translations that you seem to doubt are genuinely new to the English speaking Dragon Ball fan. That does not mean these translations are made up. The world is not out to get you.

[GamingBuddha]

Can't ningen also be translated as person? If so, wouldn't it be more accurate to refer to those other characters as people rather than humans?

[Fox666]

Some material does not have an official translation.

Besides "official" only means distribution rights.

Unless the author of the work also makes the translation¹, there is no reason to taken them as truly valid source. Or at least something that stands up to the original material.

1. Of course this also would be questionable, since some japanese mangakas commit several mistakes regarding their English writing.

[Eddie]

Some material does not have an official translation.

Besides "official" only means distribution rights.

Unless the author of the work also makes the translation¹, there is no reason to taken them as truly valid source. Or at least something that stands up to the original material.

1. Of course this also would be questionable, since some japanese mangakas commit several mistakes regarding their English writing.

Very true. I was mainly referring to the large amount of material that has never received an officially licensed release in the English language. SuperForteX is under the impression that all of the people here that have a knowledge of the Japanese language are liars. He seems to want "better" translations (read: translations that validate his opinion), and I was attempting to point out that a "professional" translations doesn't exist.

[SuperForteX]

Eh, now wait just a minute. I never said the whole community was making shit up. I said they're just wrong about this, somehow. That's all. Dragon Ball does have professional translations, and not just in English. I already mentioned those in Spanish, German, and French.

I really just don't think pawning 'ningen' off as 'human' is correct, nor what A.T. intended. I've only ever heard of this on DaizEX, no where else.

[Casual Matt]

I think the problem here is that some people may be forcing the English definition of the word "human" onto the Japanese word "ningen".

When someone says "human" in English, they're usually referring to a homo sapien, a member of our species. When someone says "ningen", at least in Dragon Ball, what they're really saying is a person. In that world, a ningen / human doesn't necessarily have to be a homo sapien.

Saiyajin, on the other hand, could be considered the same species as homo sapien because, as has been pointed out already, they are able to produce fertile offspring with humans, therefore scientifically speaking if they really existed they'd be considered to be a part of the homo sapien species. A different race, sure, but the same species. Scientifically speaking.

Okay, example time, to make this clear.

Kuririn is a "ningen". He is a homo sapien. He is an Earthling.

Vegeta is a "ningen". He is also a homo sapien, scientifically speaking. He is not an Earthling, however.

Piccolo is also a "ningen". He is not, however, homo sapien. He is also not an Earthling.

So yeah, "ningen" is most commonly translated as "human" but in this case "human" and "homo sapien" are not the same thing.

The fact of the matter is that the word "ningen" as it's used in Dragon Ball has a much broader meaning than the word "human" is traditionally taken to mean in the English language. It's the combination of a highly fantastical fictional world and a translation from Japanese into English which gives us notions such as "Piccolo is human".

As I and others have said, while "human" is the most common translation of "ningen", "person" might be a better fit for the word's use in this series.

I really just don't think pawning 'ningen' off as 'human' is correct, nor what A.T. intended. I've only ever heard of this on DaizEX, no where else.

To be fair, Toriyama wrote in Japanese. He wrote the word "ningen" with only the Japanese meaning in mind.

"Human" just happens to be the most common translation of "ningen".

[Bussani]

Can't ningen also be translated as person? If so, wouldn't it be more accurate to refer to those other characters as people rather than humans?

Like I said before, "person" and "human" are already kind of interchangeable in English as it is, so I'm not sure how much better that is. That's because we've never met a "person" who wasn't "human", of course. But it would also be weird for Vegeta to be saying that he has both a giant ape form and a person form. It would also mean that Kaioshin and Kibito, for some reason, aren't people, since they distinguish themselves from the ningen of the universe.

Edit: Kami too, for that matter. Looking back at Herms' thread on the topic, Goku says that Kami and Piccolo were once one gifted ningen, but Kami also tells everyone that he isn't a ningen. So becoming a god makes you stop being a person? The way the word's used in the context of Dragon Ball, it seems to refer to "mortal human-shaped guys".

[Fox666]

Eh, now wait just a minute. I never said the whole community was making shit up. I said they're just wrong about this, somehow. That's all. Dragon Ball does have professional translations, and not just in English. I already mentioned those in Spanish, German, and French.

I really just don't think pawning 'ningen' off as 'human' is correct, nor what A.T. intended. I've only ever heard of this on DaizEX, no where else.

It sounds like you don't want to accept it... because you simply said it must be wrong somehow, without providing any real evidence.

[SuperForteX]

I provided the evidence, why do you keep antagonizing me? My evidence is a complete lack of any mention of this from any kind of professional, as well as lack of it ever having been discussed prior to appearing here on DaizEX, as well as very clear, very concise in-story evidence that the various alien species are not humans.

[Fox666]

It simply doesn't matter how a certain publication translated it.

I mean, if in Harry Potter book there was writen in the original "the ball hit Potter in the balls", you won't expect someone to say these lines aren't about testicles because the in spain it was translated as "la pelota pegó Potter en el tórax"...

What else can we do, scan the manga and circle the word "ningen" or whatever it is?

[SuperForteX]

It simply doesn't matter how a certain publication translated it.

It most certainly does... I'm sorry, I know DaizEx has a certain disdain for some translations out there, but when everyone else in the whole world is wrong except you: Maybe you're actually the one who is wrong.

Face it, DB has been translated into dozens of languages for dozens of years, no where have I ever, or (outside of this baord and the other) will hear... of the aliens, Namekians, Freeza, etc. as humans.

I mean, if in Harry Potter book there was writen in the original "the ball hit Potter in the balls", you won't expect someone to say these lines aren't about testicles because the in spain it was translated as "la pelota pegó Potter en el tórax"...

That's not even close to being the same issue at hand...

What else can we do, scan the manga and circle the word "ningen" or whatever it is?

For starters, yes. Then we can provide some proof that ningen really means human in the same sense of the word it does in English, that'd be a nice follow-through. I have my own personal suspicions that it's not at all the right way the word should be translated, and I've already seen several others in this thread alone who are saying it should be translated as "person", which is totally different from "human."

[Eddie]

It sounds like you don't want to accept it... because you simply said it must be wrong somehow, without providing any real evidence.

Comments on this forum (and others) suggest that this individual does not trust anyone associated with DaizenshuuEX. He doesn't know Japanese, and he thinks that people like Herms that do, in fact, have a knowledge of the language are either incorrect or they're imaginary people that are part of a conspiracy. I'm not sure if he's aware that the actual professional translator of the DBZ subtitle track is a member. He may be under the impression that Daimao is an alt account of one of the admins, though.

[SuperForteX]

I really have no idea what you're talking about, but that is so irrelevant to this topic of discussion that it has no place in this thread.

[Casual Matt]

It would also mean that Kaioshin and Kibito, for some reason, aren't people, since they distinguish themselves from the ningen of the universe.

Edit: Kami too, for that matter. Looking back at Herms' thread on the topic, Goku says that Kami and Piccolo were once one gifted ningen, but Kami also tells everyone that he isn't a ningen. So becoming a god makes you stop being a person? The way the word's used in the context of Dragon Ball, it seems to refer to "mortal human-shaped guys".

I actually didn't know that. Pretty interesting.

Sounds like the "Gods" of the Dragon Ball mythos use the word "ningen" in the same way that Gods in English literature would use "mortal".

Of course, I suppose that "human" and "mortal person" would mean roughly the same thing.

I provided the evidence, why do you keep antagonizing me? My evidence is a complete lack of any mention of this from any kind of professional, as well as lack of it ever having been discussed prior to appearing here on DaizEX, as well as very clear, very concise in-story evidence that the various alien species are not humans.

First of all, we are not trying to antagonize you. We are trying to inform you.

Secondly:

Then we can provide some proof that ningen really means human in the same sense of the word it does in English, that'd be a nice follow-through. I have my own personal suspicions that it's not at all the right way the word should be translated, and I've already seen several others in this thread alone who are saying it should be translated as "person", which is totally different from "human."

As I previously said...

The fact of the matter is that the word "ningen" as it's used in Dragon Ball has a much broader meaning than the word "human" is traditionally taken to mean in the English language. It's the combination of a highly fantastical fictional world and a translation from Japanese into English which gives us notions such as "Piccolo is human".

[Fox666]

It most certainly does... I'm sorry, I know DaizEx has a certain disdain for some translations out there, but when everyone else in the whole world is wrong except you: Maybe you're actually the one who is wrong.

Face it, DB has been translated into dozens of languages for dozens of years, no where have I ever, or (outside of this baord and the other) will hear... of the aliens, Namekians, Freeza, etc. as humans.

Like Eddie said, this is not a conspiracy.

It's simply that we can't be wrong. It's simply what is writen in the japanese manga.


I myself don't have a japanese keyboard, to say the truth I know anything of japanese or kanji. Still I am able to prove by very simply means using the information provided by Herms.

人間/ningen

And now a manga scan:



And now Google for it

[SuperForteX]

It most certainly does... I'm sorry, I know DaizEx has a certain disdain for some translations out there, but when everyone else in the whole world is wrong except you: Maybe you're actually the one who is wrong.

Face it, DB has been translated into dozens of languages for dozens of years, no where have I ever, or (outside of this baord and the other) will hear... of the aliens, Namekians, Freeza, etc. as humans.

Like Eddie said, this is not a conspiracy.

It's simply that we can't be wrong. It's simply what is writen in the japanese manga.


I myself don't have a japanese keyboard, to say the truth I know anything of japanese or kanji. Still I am able to prove by very simply means using the information provided by Herms.

人間/ningen

And now a manga scan:


And now Google for it

That is saying
1. man
2. person
3. human being

Usually the higher the number, the less common the meaning. That is how most dictionaries work, right?