Kaioshin/South Kaioshin/Dai Kaioshin/Kibitoshin REVALUATION

[goldsaint13]

In that case, anybody that has ever suppressed their strength and then later on used their full power has "transformed". Even Kuririn "transforms" on a regular basis.

Like this, but more extreme... Gohan's one is more like a transformation because he can stay in base form (the same base form as before) and then draw out all the power like he would do while turning SSJ (it's what the Elder said), but without any fatigue and drawing out all the power he would possibly have, above that of SSJ3, instead of just that of SSJ...

[Metrite]

Rou Kaioshin shouldn't have ranted against the thought that transforming has to happen if he had just given Gohan any type of transformation himself. Yeah, Gohan can use every bit of his power, but that doesn't change the fact that he is still in his normal form. If Gohan were the type to train his ass off, then it would even be possible that he could end up someday gaining enough latent power to turn ssj again, but he's just in his normal form for now since all his power at that time was drawn out.

[goldsaint13]

He could never transform again even if your explanation would be correct... Gohan hasn't anymore hidden power to unlock... He is a lot stronger than Goku, a fighting genius who stretched his limits to the extreme unlocking SSJ3... Not him, nor Gohan, could ever get anymore stronger than that...

Anyway, the whole Ultimate function, being a transformation or not, is controversial...

[Metrite]

Not him, nor Gohan, could ever get anymore stronger than that

And why would that be? Gohan might not become any stronger if he never trains, but there's no reason either of them can't still improve if they tried. Goku even said himself a few times that he would keep working hard and become even stronger.

[goldsaint13]

And why would that be? Gohan might not become any stronger if he never trains, but there's no reason either of them can't still improve if they tried. Goku even said himself a few times that he would keep working hard and become even stronger.

Goku (as base and SSJ1 forms) reached more or less his limits during Cell saga already... His huge power boost in Buu's saga comes from SSJ2 and SSJ3... But his base and SSJ1 forms improved maybe a little, but nothing special at all...
Goku said it to Vegeta when he came out the RoSaT: "Vegeta, you can enter again the RoSaT because you still have chances to get stronger!"
This means Goku haven't... And in the Buu's saga he focused on unlocking SSJ2 and SSJ3, because he couldn't get much stronger as base and SSJ1... He improved a bit though, but in 7 years and with the Otherworld means, it's a small boost, very small...
Goku couldn't get much stronger than he is in Buu's saga... He could only train in keeping the SSJ3 form for longer time and at high rate of energy...
Gohan on his own is unlocked to all his possible potential by magic... And he is so hugely strong that it's not hard to believe he is at his extreme limits... Ultimate Gohan is as strong as he would be as a fully and extremely trained SSJ3 also enraged...

[Metrite]

There isn't really anything in the Buu saga that compares Goku's strength in lower forms to to what it was over half a decade ago. But it was shown in the Buu saga that with hard work they can still improve considerably in their normal forms which would result in their ssj forms improving as well. Goku made it clear that he could indeed still get a lot stronger by saying multiple times that he would.

[goldsaint13]

There isn't really anything in the Buu saga that compares Goku's strength in lower forms to to what it was over half a decade ago.

There is... Goku's power is more or less the same as Cell Games enraged Gohan... That means he improved a while in both base and SSJ1 forms, but he clearly still couldn't defeat Cell without turning SSJ2... Since SSJ2 is double of SSJ1, it means that Goku's base form and SSJ1 improvement is less than double the power he had at Cell Games... And that with 7 years of hard training using the magical means available in the Otherworld including his afterlife body...

But it was shown in the Buu saga that with hard work they can still improve considerably in their normal forms which would result in their ssj forms improving as well.

True, but not by much since Cell saga... Vegeta did bigger improvements because, as Goku said, he had still some potential to unlock...

Goku made it clear that he could indeed still get a lot stronger by saying multiple times that he would.

In Buu's saga he said he would have trained enough to defeat Kid Buu's reincarnation without the others' help... But he said he could do it already if only SSJ3 would have endured more...
So it's more an endurance training but he can't get that much stronger if he didn't even in 7 years in the Otherworld with a transcendential body immune to fatigue...

[Metrite]

There is... Goku's power is more or less the same as Cell Games enraged Gohan

The only thing comparing them was the statement that Goku's power was even greater than what Gohan had back then. And seeing how Gohan was way stronger than Goku even in ssj1 back then, it would mean Goku must have improved drastically to be even stronger in the same form again. And Goku has always been one to only aim at getting stronger, even his words on the very last page of the manga were him talking about getting stronger, not that it is pointless to even try because he's hit a magical wall that prevents him from ever getting any stronger.

[goldsaint13]

The only thing comparing them was the statement that Goku's power was even greater than what Gohan had back then. And seeing how Gohan was way stronger than Goku even in ssj1 back then, it would mean Goku must have improved drastically to be even stronger in the same form again.

Yes, but by a really small bit, so little that Piccolo hardly noticed the difference... Gohan was stronger than his as SSJ1, but not enough yet to defeat Cell without the anger and the SSJ2... So it means that Goku couldn't defeat Cell in Buu's saga as well without using at least his SSJ2...
And it means also that his SSJ1 while being closer than before to Cell's level, is still below him...
This can't be seen as a huge improvement...

And Goku has always been one to only aim at getting stronger, even his words on the very last page of the manga were him talking about getting stronger, not that it is pointless to even try because he's hit a magical wall that prevents him from ever getting any stronger.

It's not the matter of a magical wall, but it's about his limits... Goku is aware of them and clearly knows he could never get much stronger without new transformations...
Let's assume SSJ2 and SSJ3 don't exist... After 7 years of training in the Otherworld he would have lost against Perfect Cell again only giving him a more intense battle...
Of course the training on Earth is far less effective than training in the Otherworld... So he may get a bit stronger but it would be hardly noticeable...
In case there would be something above SSJ3 then he could get a big boost, but there isn't and beside that he could improve only by a little in all his forms...
He may have gotten almost as strong as Cell with SSJ1 at the end of the manga, but it's not a so big growth... And his growth cannot be much higher than that... As he said in Cell's saga, he reached his limits (in base form)... He managed to improve by a few millions, but nothing significant... He will never defeat Freezer in base form for instance, he'll always need SSJ1... And the same is for Cell... SSJ1 will never be enough... He will always need SSJ2... As for Majin Buu... Of course he'll never win as a SSJ2... He would always need SSJ3...

[Metrite]

Yes, but by a really small bit, so little that Piccolo hardly noticed the difference... Gohan was stronger than his as SSJ1, but not enough yet to defeat Cell without the anger and the SSJ2... So it means that Goku couldn't defeat Cell in Buu's saga as well without using at least his SSJ2...
And it means also that his SSJ1 while being closer than before to Cell's level, is still below him...
This can't be seen as a huge improvement...

It actually seemed like ssj2 Goku was significantly stronger than ssj2 Gohan was (unless Gohan lost like eighty percent of his power, but him being that much weaker just seems ridiculous). It only took a few quick hits on Goku to accomplish even more than what all of Gohan's sapped energy did. And since Goku used be to significantly weaker even as ssj1, the fact that he is now stronger on the same level shows he did get significantly stronger regardless of whether he could now beat Cell with just ssj1 or not.

It's not the matter of a magical wall, but it's about his limits... Goku is aware of them and clearly knows he could never get much stronger without new transformations

In that case, Goku would not have said that he was going to become even stronger.

[goldsaint13]

Lost post.

[goldsaint13]

It actually seemed like ssj2 Goku was significantly stronger than ssj2 Gohan was (unless Gohan lost like eighty percent of his power, but him being that much weaker just seems ridiculous).

Gohan didn't lost power, but more he lost the boost that came from anger... He simply returned what he was at Cell Games before getting angered... Goku instead, reached a power slightly above that of Gohan back then, but above by a very small amount, because Piccolo wouldn't have doubts on him otherwise...

It only took a few quick hits on Goku to accomplish even more than what all of Gohan's sapped energy did. And since Goku used be to significantly weaker even as ssj1, the fact that he is now stronger on the same level shows he did get significantly stronger regardless of whether he could now beat Cell with just ssj1 or not.

Yes, he is stronger... I never denied it... But with the most effective training of all his life he didn't get THAN MUCH stronger... His improvement after the RoSaT was a lot bigger... He likely got 10 times stronger or so... Because back in the Androids saga he still had a lot of potential to unlock, but after the RoSaT the biggest part of his potential was unlocked and he said that to Vegeta...
Vegeta himself in the 7 years had much more improvements than Goku (even him surpassed Gohan) because as Goku said back then, Vegeta still had a lot of potential to unlock (he wasn't Full Power in Cell's saga but he is in Buu's saga)... Goku improved but in case he jumped from, let's say, 2.000 Kili to 3.000 Kili, it could also mean that his base form jumped from 40 Kili to 60 Kili, that is always barely half of Freezer's power, not that big growth from Cell's to Buu's saga considering the intensity of his training...

In that case, Goku would not have said that he was going to become even stronger.

He would surely get stronger... But he'll never get hugely stronger...

If he may have jumped from 40 to 60 Kili with the Otherworld training, I assume that on Earth he might have reached 70 Kili at the end of Z... But this would mean 3500 Kili as a SSJ1... Not much more than in Buu's saga...

May be the numbers correct or not, that is the concept I meant...

[dbgtFO]

Goku improved but in case he jumped from, let's say, 2.000 Kili to 3.000 Kili, it could also mean that his base form jumped from 40 Kili to 60 Kili, that is always barely half of Freezer's power, not that big growth from Cell's to Buu's saga considering the intensity of his training...

I don't think it's a good idea to use Kiri numbers in debates, especially, when it's just a fan theory that 1 kiri = Battle Power: 1 million.

[goldsaint13]

I don't think it's a good idea to use Kiri numbers in debates, especially, when it's just a fan theory that 1 kiri = Battle Power: 1 million.

Well, it may be better to not making that equivalence... Ok... Just skip the comparison with Freezer...

But Goku's 3.000 Kili as SSJ1 are 60 Kili at base anyway...

[Metrite]

Gohan didn't lost power, but more he lost the boost that came from anger... He simply returned what he was at Cell Games before getting angered... Goku instead, reached a power slightly above that of Gohan back then, but above by a very small amount, because Piccolo wouldn't have doubts on him otherwise...

Piccolo never said he had any doubts about Goku, or if you're referring to Vegeta the only thing that was said was that his power was greater than Gohan when he fought Cell as well. That shouldn't be pointed out so much if the difference was negligible. And ssj2 Goku had to be way stronger than ssj2 Gohan or he couldn't have provided even more energy with such a small amount of damage.

Yes, he is stronger... I never denied it... But with the most effective training of all his life he didn't get THAN MUCH stronger... His improvement after the RoSaT was a lot bigger... He likely got 10 times stronger or so... Because back in the Androids saga he still had a lot of potential to unlock, but after the RoSaT the biggest part of his potential was unlocked and he said that to Vegeta...
Vegeta himself in the 7 years had much more improvements than Goku (even him surpassed Gohan) because as Goku said back then, Vegeta still had a lot of potential to unlock (he wasn't Full Power in Cell's saga but he is in Buu's saga)... Goku improved but in case he jumped from, let's say, 2.000 Kili to 3.000 Kili, it could also mean that his base form jumped from 40 Kili to 60 Kili, that is always barely half of Freezer's power, not that big growth from Cell's to Buu's saga considering the intensity of his training...

You keep using the word potential like it means they have some set strength they reach and then suddenly can only improve at one percent the rate they did up to that point. Goku didn't say anything to Vegeta about his own "potential" or Vegeta's, he just mockingly pointed out he was now a lot stronger by telling Vegeta he doesn't care if he uses the room more since he still needed improvement. And it seems Goku and Vegeta must have at least doubled or tripled their strength in normal form at the very least since Goku was a lot weaker than Gohan and Vegeta a lot weaker than even him back then. Vegeta and Goku both surpassed him, but Goku did so significantly more since Vegeta found Goku to still be too much stronger than him. After breaking the Z sword they said Gohan had increased his strength considerably and so should also be much stronger as a ssj, but that was just because he worked out really hard with it, not because it really was magical and increased his "potential to be reached".

[Chou Gohan]

You know, it never really seemed to be implied in the series that every ssj form for every character has a set multiplier and affects them all the exact same way. I think if you look at it like that and try to overanalyze it with the expectation that it will be perfectly like that then you'll just find more inconsistency like with everything in DB has when overanalyzed.

But Goku's 3.000 Kili as SSJ1 are 60 Kili at base anyway...

Right after Babidi said Goku was at 3,000 he said Yakon was only 800. However, Goku had no trouble keeping up with Yakon in his normal form, so that must mean that ssj had long since gone from a 50 times increase to a 5 times increase. I guess that would explain why Vegeta was fine with the agreement to not turn ssj at the tournament and thought he could win even after he knew 18 would enter, since ssj was only a about a five times increase, he was even stronger in his normal form than he used to be as a ssj.

And the real reason Gohan never turned ssj again was because the Earth would have exploded if he did. Or at least that's the most ridiculous claim I've seen about it from somebody that couldn't stand the way things were apparently meant to be and so insisted it had to be the way he insisted so that he could honestly claim Gohan was really even stronger than Vegetto.

[Fox666]

That is very unlikely, since none of the guides seems to provide any other multiplier for Super Saiyan than 50 times, even when they also mention Super Saiyan 2 and 3.

[goldsaint13]

You know, it never really seemed to be implied in the series that every ssj form for every character has a set multiplier and affects them all the exact same way. I think if you look at it like that and try to overanalyze it with the expectation that it will be perfectly like that then you'll just find more inconsistency like with everything in DB has when overanalyzed.

Actually, it seems that SSJ forms have just exact multipliers it seems... I don't know why they shouldn't... The same transformation has the same effect... Like the Oozaru... It'll always be x10...
Actually, the x50 is about the base SSJ, maybe the Full Power is different...

Right after Babidi said Goku was at 3,000 he said Yakon was only 800. However, Goku had no trouble keeping up with Yakon in his normal form, so that must mean that ssj had long since gone from a 50 times increase to a 5 times increase. I guess that would explain why Vegeta was fine with the agreement to not turn ssj at the tournament and thought he could win even after he knew 18 would enter, since ssj was only a about a five times increase, he was even stronger in his normal form than he used to be as a ssj.

That would feel quite strange... Full Power turning normal form in a SSJ like power form and actual SSJ becoming only stronger by 5 times...
I would expect a guide to explain it because even the SEG kept saying SSJ is x50, although the one seen is early SSJ, not Full Power...
It could be even that turning the SSJ in a normal-like form with Full Power, they actually turned the normal form and the calm SSJ form to be the same but both as strong as a SSJ already...
Base/calm SSJ x5 = SSJFP x2 = SSJ2 x4 = SSJ3 would work... But I wait for a guide to explain...

And the real reason Gohan never turned ssj again was because the Earth would have exploded if he did. Or at least that's the most ridiculous claim I've seen about it from somebody that couldn't stand the way things were apparently meant to be and so insisted it had to be the way he insisted so that he could honestly claim Gohan was really even stronger than Vegetto.

Nothing can be stronger than Vegetto...

Anyway Gohan couldn't turn SSJ or he would have done it against Buutenks... He has all his potential unlocked in that form and he is far above a normal SSJ3 and even stronger than Gotenks SSJ3, a fusion, but he couln't turn SSJ anymore...

That is very unlikely, since none of the guides seems to provide any other multiplier for Super Saiyan than 50 times, even when they also mention Super Saiyan 2 and 3.

That's why I have many doubts... Although the explanation he gave could work and if a guide would state it there wouldn't be problems with logic of the manga...
It would also make sense why base Gotenks can survive Fat Buu and SSJ Gotenks is only slightly stronger than him, at best...

[Fox666]

That's why I have many doubts... Although the explanation he gave could work and if a guide would state it there wouldn't be problems with logic of the manga...
It would also make sense why base Gotenks can survive Fat Buu and SSJ Gotenks is only slightly stronger than him, at best...

I don't know what are you talking about. Is that in the anime?

As far I can tell, Gotenks attacked Evil Boo many times, and he was unscattered. And Evil Boo only gave him a slap making Gotenks' eyes popping. This really don't give any limit for Evil Boo strength compared to Gotenks.

[goldsaint13]

Lost post.