Ultimate Gohan not in GT and possibly Battle of Gods?

[TheMightyOzaru]

SSJ3 just draws on the current limits of the Saiyan. For example lets give Goku a power level of 1,000,000,000 in base. His SSJ3 power level would be 400,000,000,000. Now lets say he trained and his power level grew to 5,000,000,000. His SSJ3 power level would then be 2,000,000,000,000. His limits were expanded and thus his SSJ3 power level became 400x his new limits. All potential is is your current limit. These current limits are surpassed all the time. There is no reason to over complicate things and say that Goku's SSJ3 power level in the Buu saga is his maximum. One you would have to believe that his base form would eventually make all SSJ forms useless or weaker than his base form, which is complete nonsense. Like Kaboom said these characters don't have an end limit. They just grow and grow for as long as they have a body. Actually the end blatantly says they continue to get stronger. Did Goku saying he would train to get stronger in case Buu returned not tip you off or something?

I don't see where that is suggested. When Goku achieves SSJ3, I conceive it to signify him already reaching the maximum of his base state. Which I believe is the reason it is given the "The Limit" moniker and a databook entry to further clarify it. Their bodies are always governed by limitations that they cannot control. Vegeta states how a Saiyan's youthful period is longer which allows them to fight at their best; simply having a body doesn't mean their power is not bound to it. SSJ3 already represents there being a limit to how much power their body can hold due to the drawbacks it causes to the user. No, because Goku doesn't say that.

Goku says he will get stronger after his fight with Buu and he did. Nuff said. If SSJ3 represents their end limit that means if their base form gets stronger their SSJ forms will decrease in power. That is absurd. Seriously I don't see what is so hard to understand, SSJ3 is the maximum a Saiyan can output at there current state. If they get stronger naturally their SSJ forms will follow since they are straight multipliers. They dont decrease in effectiveness. Goku can surpass Gohan and he likely did since its stated in multiple places that Goku is the strongest character in the series. Its even stated by Toriyama that he is the strongest. Call faulty memory if you want but he did state it.

[Son_Gohan]

Goku says he will get stronger after his fight with Buu and he did. Nuff said. If SSJ3 represents their end limit that means if their base form gets stronger their SSJ forms will decrease in power. That is absurd. Seriously I don't see what is so hard to understand, SSJ3 is the maximum a Saiyan can output at there current state. If they get stronger naturally their SSJ forms will follow since they are straight multipliers. They dont decrease in effectiveness. Goku can surpass Gohan and he likely did since its stated in multiple places that Goku is the strongest character in the series. Its even stated by Toriyama that he is the strongest. Call faulty memory if you want but he did state it.

My Viz translation doesn't appear to have included that part. But looking at the translation provided by Herms, he doesn't explicitly say that he'll get "stronger":

Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P11.2-3
Context: after Polunga restores Goku’s stamina and he’s about to finish Boo off with the Genki-Dama
Goku: “I wanna fight you one-on-one…I’ll be waiting…And I’ll have gotten much, much better…See ya later!”

The issue with fighting Boo wasn't that his power was far superior to Goku's, his regeneration only made it difficult to put him away for good. Yet Goku respects his ability as fighter enough to hope to improve his performance against him the next time. What indicates to you that Goku got stronger after those ten years? It's not a matter of misunderstanding, we merely have a dissenting opinion on the subject: I think unlocking the SSJ3 form marks the reaching of the Saiyan's natural limit, so his base form would already be at its maximum, in my opinion.

Toriyama also expressed in an interview from Shonen Jump that their powers couldn't possibly keep getting stronger. So even from the mindset of the author, their power wasn't intended to be viewed as unlimited. It increased only if there is a need for it; basically for as long as he continued the story.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Ok thanks for proving my point. That line is in the strength checker and Goku clearly says he will get much much better. Goku got stronger nuff said. Also that statement doesn't prove anything. Toriyama's statement was just emphasis on how strong these guys could get. Furthermore that interview is not on the Kanzenshuu so it is likely fake. Also when was that interview? Goku clearly says he will get much much better so that statement clearly is not referring to Goku being unable to get stronger if that interview is legitimate. I'm sorry dude but there is just way too much proof that suggest these characters grow indefinitely. Seriously why would Goku say he would get much much better if he couldn't? Goku already could have killed Buu if he had done it from the get go. There is no need to improve skill when he knows the key to victory. If you wanna think they stopped getting stronger then be my guest but I sure as heck do not.

[VegettoEX]

There is no "the Kanzenshuu". Kanzenshuu is the name of this website.

Just because an interview isn't posted on our website doesn't mean it's not real. We still have plenty more to go. We're more than happy to tell you if a quote is real or not, however.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Is the one Son Gohan posted real?

[Son_Gohan]

If it actually said "stronger", that would be reasserting what you claimed. But "better" doesn't directly translate to strength. Since the VIZ translation doesn't even state anything of the sort, and the fact that other listings in the Strength Checker are more clear to when a line is pertained to a character's power, it could be taken to mean different from that.

The interview came from this thread, courtesy of TheDevilsCorpse. In another interview he explains the reasoning why the characters had to continue becoming stronger, which was also touched upon in an earlier post. Tie that in with his other statement and that's well enough for me to accept that these characters weren't intended by the author to possess unlimited strength.

Goku wouldn't resolve to killing him after he's reincarnated as a good guy, he simply wants a fair fight. When two powers are already that on par to each other, the match is primarily settled upon the one who holds superior skill. Even if Goku wouldn't be getting stronger, he can still refine his fighting ability for their next encounter.

[Kaboom]

Yes, it's real. That's from some early issue of North America's Shonen Jump.

But even in that context, Toriyama still obviously found ways to have the characters keep getting stronger. These heroes are constantly breaking whatever limit they think they've hit. That's just how these types of series work. There is a difference between "unlimited strength' and "unlimited potential for improvement."

[Dabooyaka]

If saiyans can keep getting stronger and stronger, why was fusion even introduced? They had to make up a Godly fusion to surpass Gohan's ultimate power. They even had to nerf the last villain in order for Goku's "ultimate" saiyan power to matter...Its blatantly obvious the saiyans hit a limit, even Gohan.

[Kaboom]

There's a big difference between "I'll get stronger over time with hard work" and "I NEED TO BE A LOT STRONGER RIGHT NOW." Same with magic poison-water, transformations, healing boosts, potential unlocks, weird space-time warping rooms, etc... those aren't natural progressions of power. Those are plot devices. None of the characters would be as strong as they are if plot devices were the only way for them to grow.

[Saiga]

There are definitely limits, however, I believe they aren't supposed to be viewed as "you reach this point, and stop gaining any strength". I view it more as "what can be obtained in a given time limit". So, while Goku will continue to grow stronger from training, there's only so much strength he will gain in a given time frame (including his life span). Transformations, fusions and potential unlocking are all ways to overcome those limits. When someone is brought out beyond their limits, I believe that's just a fancy way of saying "made stronger than they currently are".

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There are definitely limits, however, I believe they aren't supposed to be viewed as "you reach this point, and stop gaining any strength". I view it more as "what can be obtained in a given time limit". So, while Goku will continue to grow stronger from training, there's only so much strength he will gain in a given time frame (including his life span).

That's how I view it as well. For example, before reaching his limit, Goku could get 6 times stronger after 10 years, while after reaching his limit, he would only get 1.5 times stronger (numbers are not literal).

Goku acknowledged by Cell arc that he had reached his limits, and while he did got stronger after 7 years, he probably still hadn't surpassed raged SS2 Gohan from Cell Games.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

This is how I tend to view it as well.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Even Piccolo, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Chaozu, and Muten Roshi (though he wasn't in his prime during the series, but if he was, maybe he would be able to keep up with the rest of the Earthlings) seem to have reached their limits. They all train & get stronger, but not strong enough anymore to keep up with the Saiyans.

[Dabooyaka]

There are definitely limits, however, I believe they aren't supposed to be viewed as "you reach this point, and stop gaining any strength". I view it more as "what can be obtained in a given time limit". So, while Goku will continue to grow stronger from training, there's only so much strength he will gain in a given time frame (including his life span).

That's how I view it as well. For example, before reaching his limit, Goku could get 6 times stronger after 10 years, while after reaching his limit, he would only get 1.5 times stronger (numbers are not literal).

Goku acknowledged by Cell arc that he had reached his limits, and while he did got stronger after 7 years, he probably still hadn't surpassed raged SS2 Gohan from Cell Games.

Goku did Surpass that level of power though. Vegeta says that Goku is stronger than Gohan was when he killed Cell. But I over-all agree with the rest.

[JP6GAMER]

Goku did Surpass that level of power though. Vegeta says that Goku is stronger than Gohan was when he killed Cell. But I over-all agree with the rest.

When did Vegeta say that?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Goku did Surpass that level of power though. Vegeta says that Goku is stronger than Gohan was when he killed Cell. But I over-all agree with the rest.

When did Vegeta say that?

In the anime and the scanlations Iv'e read Vegeta says he is stronger than Gohan when he fought Cell. I'm not sure what is said in the original Japanese manga but I'm pretty sure SSJ2 Goku has surpassed SSJ2 enraged Kid Gohan.

[Dabooyaka]

Yes, it's stated by Vegeta that Goku was stronger than Gohan when he killed Cell.

[Fox666]

deleted

[JP6GAMER]

Thanks for showing me the source.

I think at the end of Dragonball Son Goku with SSJ 4 is stronger than Ultimate Gohan. SSJ 4 made Goku ~4000 times stronger than his base form and I think Ultimate Gohan is ~2000 times stronger than his base form. So by the multipliers ( even though they maybe aren't completely true) Goku is stronger and I also think base Goku is stronger than base Gohan.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku did Surpass that level of power though. Vegeta says that Goku is stronger than Gohan was when he killed Cell.

Oops, my bad.
But my point still stands, since Piccolo said that his power is perhaps even greater, meaning that there is not a huge difference between their powers.