Your opinions on Kai

[theoriginalbilis]

I disagree, other than the crappier animated episodes, the animation is gorgeous. I don't fall into the camp of new is better.

I agree with you. Though I'd only say that maybe a handful of episodes look "gorgeous", but overall the show looks decent and holds up. If you look (I mean, reaally look) at many modern anime, they take a lot more shortcuts due to the shift to digital animation. Unless it's a AAA title like Death Note or Moribito or Gundam, many mid-to-low budget anime nowadays have even lower frame rates than they did in the 90's. I will agree that modern anime tend to look sharper and more defined (maybe that's why people say newer anime looks better), but the actual quality of the animation (movement) is still debatable.

I'd say for the most part, DB/DBZ manages to do what many anime (old or new) haven't quite gotten right... pull off a sense of fast motion and intensity in the action, even with the many limitations they had. It says much about the talent of the animators Toei were employing back in that day, as well the fact that they using such a great manga as a "storyboard" for the show.

[KingofWisdom]

I thought Over the Star was fine in its scene, all though it didn't mesh well with the Kikuchi score when I saw it on Nicktoons.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I thought Over the Star was fine in its scene, all though it didn't mesh well with the Kikuchi score when I saw it on Nicktoons.

Actually, speaking of "Over the Star"....

That's one of my biggest issues with the Kai dub: they stopped dubbing the insert songs. I thought the English-dubbed version of "Over the Star" sounded really good (and then I heard it without the SFX or dialogue in the background and actually got chills listening to it). Furthermore, when they played the English version of the Ginyu Tokusentai's theme ("Ginyu Force Rules"), I thought that was absolutely hilarious. They were really on a roll with the dubs of those insert songs...it's quite the pity they stopped.

With all that said, regardless of what one thinks of the quality of the dubbed insert songs, I felt it was a tad odd and inconsistent to suddenly switch to the original Japanese insert songs. Not that the original Japanese singers did a bad job, of course, but it has always been very distracting for me to hear Japanese songs in an English dub...it's like it's breaking the fourth wall too much, because when I hear a Japanese song playing but with English dialogue in the background, my brain automatically reacts by going, "Oh, I'm watching a dub," rather than being absorbed in the story.

Part of me wonders if FUNimation stopped dubbing them because they were informed that a score replacement was imminent due to the Music Scandal, and they were worried about being too closely associated with music that had possibly been plagiarized.

[ABED]

I have a soft spot for hand drawn animation as opposed to slick digital animation.

[GotenDaisuki]

Kai was, for me, the version of the show that introduced me to the Dragon Ball franchise. I am really a Kai-generation fan, and so I love(d) it while it ran on both Fuji TV and Nicktoons. After the music scandal, I lost interest as the new mix is awful, and I missed Yamamoto's music. I still love the dub, but the Japanese version of Kai, I don't care for it much anymore, mostly thanks to the music scandal.

[Nikkolas]

Well I've finished the Kai Freeza Saga.

1. The lack of filler was a relief at points. The last time i tried re-watching Z I had to keep skipping entire episodes out of boredom.

2. Ayres' Freeza made me respect the character. I think he did better with smug Freeza than angry Freeza but both were good.

3. Gohan called Freeza a "bully." It made me think of Z where Gohan called Freeza an "A-NI-MULLLLL!" The latter would be more fitting if it was better-acted but whatever. Point is , it still is a pretty stupid insult, like calling Ganghis Khan a meanie.

4. I do feel there was a more serious/mature vibe. Some of that is the music and some of tht is the script. I can almost see why many fans balk at the Faulconer score. Totally different style of music can totally shift the feeling of a scene.

5. It's odd they kept some filler, like Bulma and Ginyu or Gohan going back to fight final form Freeza.(that is filler, right?) Maybe those were necessary? They only cut the original animation, right? So maybe they couldn't entirely edit the episodes to look good without including those segments.

Overall I enjoyed myself. I won't lie though - watching Kai consistently whacked me over the head with the Nostalgia Hammer. Fortunately, my nostalgia for the Z Freeza Saga is just that - nostalgia. I have no legitimate attachment to it. The real test for Kai will come with my watch of the Cell Saga. It is my favorite major arc in Z and I go back and re-watch it quite a lot. I also think a lot of the voices that wee introduced in the arc were legitimately great.

I am intensely curious to see if I will grow to like Clinkenbeard's Eighteen, or if I will prefer the new score and dub of my favorite Cell Saga moments like Vegeta's Final Flash.

[CaBrPi]

Sad for you, the new score isn't present in parts 5 through 8. It was found that the composer for Kai had (intentionally or not) "borrowed" heavily from other composers' work.

So Toei replaced all the new music with stuff from Shunsuke Kikuchi, who composed the score for the original series (minus GT). It's rather limited and has an overall negative effect on the show, but it's at least bearable and the music placement is actually quite good in a few episodes.

[DemonRin]

5. It's odd they kept some filler, like Bulma and Ginyu or Gohan going back to fight final form Freeza.(that is filler, right?) Maybe those were necessary? They only cut the original animation, right? So maybe they couldn't entirely edit the episodes to look good without including those segments.

Not really odd, it's exactly as you surmised at the end and it's also why Gregory was left in. Some filler elements are so heavily integrated with the Canon material that removing them becomes either impossible or impractical. Like Gregory. He appears in the frame of a lot of canon moments with Kaio, so rather than waste the time and money painting him out of every single frame he appears in, they just left in his introduction episode so he wasn't out of place.

Same thing with the Namek stuff. Ginyu (in Bulma's Body) has that little moment with Gohan, Piccolo, and Kuririn while Son is fighting Freeza. Because of that, He's standing there during some Canon material and removing him would have been too hard to do, so they just leave in the filler explaining why He's there, keep in the bit where Bulma gets her body back and he ends up in the frog, and suddenly the scene makes sense.

[Nikkolas]

Sad for you, the new score isn't present in parts 5 through 8. It was found that the composer for Kai had (intentionally or not) "borrowed" heavily from other composers' work.

So Toei replaced all the new music with stuff from Shunsuke Kikuchi, who composed the score for the original series (minus GT). It's rather limited and has an overall negative effect on the show, but it's at least bearable and the music placement is actually quite good in a few episodes.

Bummer. I did quite like the music in the Kai Freeza Saga. I guess it really doesn't matter though as I've seen plenty of anime I like with average or even subpar OSTs.

Not really odd, it's exactly as you surmised at the end and it's also why Gregory was left in. Some filler elements are so heavily integrated with the Canon material that removing them becomes either impossible or impractical. Like Gregory. He appears in the frame of a lot of canon moments with Kaio, so rather than waste the time and money painting him out of every single frame he appears in, they just left in his introduction episode so he wasn't out of place.

Same thing with the Namek stuff. Ginyu (in Bulma's Body) has that little moment with Gohan, Piccolo, and Kuririn while Son is fighting Freeza. Because of that, He's standing there during some Canon material and removing him would have been too hard to do, so they just leave in the filler explaining why He's there, keep in the bit where Bulma gets her body back and he ends up in the frog, and suddenly the scene makes sense.

Well there you have it.

So I must say that, after watching Kai Vegeta vs. 18, the "choppiness" of the fights that people have mentioned before is pretty apparent. As I already said I'm indifferent to the Freeza stuff so I couldn't really compare it but I've watched 18 demolish Vegeta quite a lot and the Kai version just felt so rushed and abridged. It didn't have any of the slow, agonizing, delicious feel of Vegeta being taken down peg by peg.

I noticed a particularly grievous script change in Z though. Before the Vegeta fight 17 and 18 make it clear they're modified humans but that isn't said at all in the Z dub. If they had kept that in there it certainly would have made things clearer. I really never had any problem grasping the plot or characters even though I came from the dub but that is one pretty bad alteration. So yeah, definitely liked that being rectified in Kai.

[Kaboom]

It's the best thing that's ever happened to Dragon Ball Z... in English.

[ABED]

I don't recall anything being taken out of the fight between 18 and Vegeta other than the filler, such as the scene where they blast by the sheep herder.

[Jackal puFF]

I'm rewatching the saiyan arc again and man I can't help but think that all the music in that one episode where Tien dies is just misplaced.

[kei17]

I'm rewatching the saiyan arc again and man I can't help but think that all the music in that one episode where Tenshinhan dies is just misplaced.

Which version are you talking about? I think the Yamamoto version is way worse anyway.

[Nikkolas]

Hm...well this has been interesting for comparisons. Two great moments and a victory for each side.

On the one hand, Kuririn smashing the controller was much better in Kai. Mr. Strait's improved acting positively shines here. Also, as much as I still prefer McCoy's Eighteen, I think Clinkenbeard does the character better in this moment. It's rare the beautiful blond gets all emotional and I think McCoy handles the other emotional scenes quite well, but she was lacking here. Have to look to GT or Trunks' future if you want a awesome emotional McCoy 18 moment.

On the flipside, Final Flash easily goes to DBZ. Faulconer's soundtrack puts whatever was playing in Kai to shame and to be honest I didn't really care much for Sabat's screams here anyway. As such the raw intensity of the scene just didn't compare and Z takes an easy win.
Although its victory is slightly dampened by Cell's dicking around with Vegeta being better in Kai. "No, seriously" made me smile from ear-to-ear.

[MajinVegetaPD]

I know I'm the only one but I miss Mr. Satan's theme music.

[Cipher]

It's kind of a mess, but I keep meaning to buy it to have a watchable version of the Namek arc on hand.

Then again, the fact that I've been meaning to for about a year and haven't yet says something as well.

[kei17]

I know I'm the only one but I miss Mr. Satan's theme music.

You mean this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuAzPR0ACVw#t=1m7s

[Gonstead]

I know I'm the only one but I miss Mr. Satan's theme music.

You mean this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuAzPR0ACVw#t=1m7s

Nah, I'm sure he meant this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG8bBJyZ ... page#t=53s

[Nikkolas]

Well I've finished Kai.

The almost total lack of music is...weird and annoying. I don't care how good a voice-actor is, if all you're doing is listening to them grunt and growl and there's absolutely nothing else, it just gets silly after a while. I felt this way mainly with Cell's flipping his lid once Gohan started to pound on him.

I noticed a flaw in the overall Cell Saga that I never really appreciated in Z and it's apparently one reason why a lot of people don't like the arc. It's the rather abrupt changing of the main antagonists.
Oh no it's the androids!a
Oh no it's the other android!
Oh no it's Cell!

Kinda makes you feel like the story lacks direction. I already heard Toriyama never planned for 17 ad 18 anyway but what of Cell?

Either way it's kinda jarring and I think the rapid pacing is almost a detriment in this regard because there's a lot less focus on the threats leading up to Cell.

Oh and I gotta say - Morgan is a better narrator than Hebert but they totally dropped the balls on SSJ2 Gohan.

Morgan: "Finally pushed to his breaking point by Cell, Gohan lets his anger BOOIIIIILLL OVEERRRRR - next dragon ball z kai."

It's so...unbearably plain and undersold. This is the greatest moment in DBZ history and all they can have him say is that Gohan's anger is "boiling over"? What, like a pot of water for a nice cup of tea? SSJ2 Gohan is an erupting volcano! He is supernova!

Say what you want about Hebert's narrator voice, at least he gave the moment the respect it deserves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ4RKNZIYso&t=2m35s

As I noted earlier I'm a much harder critic on this saga because I liked it so much already. As such, it seems very unlikely I'll ever bother with the Kai Cell Saga again.
Kai Cell Saga Pros:
-Better script
-Some better voice-acting

Kai Cell Saga Cons:
-No Faulconer Productions soundtrack
-a lot of not improved voice-acting
-the absence of fillers that I enjoyed

The first point really killed things for me... Cell dying without "Ginyu Transformation" just feels so wrong to me. The other points I'll discuss in their appropriate thread.

So yeah - I liked the Kai Freeza stuff quite a bit. I might revisit that someday.

[TheRed259]

I think the Yamamoto version is way worse anyway.

No way !
If this is a sad bgm , appropriate for death scenes , then I am Superman !