Unpopular/controversial power level/strength opinions?

[kuartus4]

A few of mine:

Base gotenks post rosat is weaker than piccolo

Base vegetto is weaker than SSJ3 Goku

East kaioshin is stronger than FP perfect cell

Base Goku on namek pre zenkai is only around 60,000. He was using kaioken x3 when he reached over 180,000.

Cell unlocked a pseudo ssj2 form from his near death experience in addition to getting a traditional zenkai.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It's stated outright by Ginyu that Goku's battle power is 90,000.

[Darkprince410]

Base Goku on namek pre zenkai is only around 60,000. He was using kaioken x3 when he reached over 180,000.

In addition to it being established in the Daizenshuu that he was 90,000 at this time, that his battle power started raising from 90,000 when Ginyu was reading them off and that Ginyu estimated him at the 85,000 range (well above the 60k he initially thought he was able to), Goku flat out establishes that he's only using the regular Kaiou-ken, and not the 3x.

[kuartus4]

It's stated outright by Ginyu that Goku's battle power is 90,000.

Only After Goku started using kaioken for a few moments:

Spoiler:

http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dr ... -bu47g.jpg

Plus ginyu estimated that goku would only be able to raise his power up to 85,000. Why would he say that if goku was already at 90,000? Because he wasn't.

[Darkprince410]

It's stated outright by Ginyu that Goku's battle power is 90,000.

Only After Goku started using kaioken for a few moments:

Spoiler:

http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dr ... -bu47g.jpg

Plus ginyu estimated that goku would only be able to raise his power up to 85,000. Why would he say that if goku was already at 90,000? Because he wasn't.

Because Goku was still momentarily just spiking his battle power for the fights too quickly for scouters to read. He was using rapid bursts of his 90,000 battle power to fight against Ginyu, and then dropping it back down to 5,000 before the scouters could gauge it. Ginyu is estimating, prior to Goku using the Kaiou-ken, that Goku's maximum was 85,000 given how Goku was doing fight wise. Remember, Ginyu initially thought that Goku was in the 60,000 range, but then increased it to 85,000 when getting a better feel for how Goku was fighting, and all of this was prior to him using the Kaiou-ken.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Tis true, the Daizenshuu states his BP is 90K as well:

[kuartus4]

It's stated outright by Ginyu that Goku's battle power is 90,000.

Only After Goku started using kaioken for a few moments:

Spoiler:

http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dr ... -bu47g.jpg

Plus ginyu estimated that goku would only be able to raise his power up to 85,000. Why would he say that if goku was already at 90,000? Because he wasn't.

Because Goku was still momentarily just spiking his battle power for the fights too quickly for scouters to read. He was using rapid bursts of his 90,000 battle power to fight against Ginyu, and then dropping it back down to 5,000 before the scouters could gauge it. Ginyu is estimating, prior to Goku using the Kaiou-ken, that Goku's maximum was 85,000 given how Goku was doing fight wise. Remember, Ginyu initially thought that Goku was in the 60,000 range, but then increased it to 85,000 when getting a better feel for how Goku was fighting, and all of this was prior to him using the Kaiou-ken.

For some reason I can't post the scan but I gave the link in my post. It confirms that goku only read at 90,000 AFTER he started using kaioken for a few moments. Did you check it out? And Ginyu's 85,000 comment is not in regards to the power goku was using against him in their fight. It was in regards to the power ginyu thought goku was saving in reserve against freeza.

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P12.4
Context: Ginyu seems to have Goku at his mercy
Goku: “In…incredible power! I can’t get loose! N-no choice…In this case, I gotta use the Kaio-Ken…!”

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P13.4
Context: after Goku lets Goku go
Ginyu: “You’re hiding even greater power! Did you really think that I wouldn’t notice…?! You were probably intending to preserve your power in preparation for fighting Lord Freeza, but don’t you underestimate me! I’m excited about having an entertaining fight for a change! So don’t do anything stupid!”

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P14.1
Context: after Goku tells Ginyu to watch his scouter
Ginyu: "Kukkukku... I don't have to look at my scouter. You should most likely be able to raise it up to 85,000."

[TheMightyOzaru]

Did you check out what I posted? The Daizenshuu 7 says base Goku is at 90K.

[kuartus4]

Did you check out what I posted? The Daizenshuu 7 says base Goku is at 90K.

I did. And it wouldn't be the first time the Daiz is wrong now would it?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Did you check out what I posted? The Daizenshuu 7 says base Goku is at 90K.

I did. And it wouldn't be the first time the Daiz is wrong now would it?

It could be that you're wrong, Both Ginyu and the Daizenshuu are against you here.

[Darkprince410]

For some reason I can't post the scan but I gave the link in my post. It confirms that goku only read at 90,000 AFTER he started using kaioken for a few moments. Did you check it out?

That doesn't change the fact that a normal Kaiou-ken (as stated by Goku), which we know only doubles the user's battle power, was used. No Kaiou-ken 3x or 4x or anything like that, just regular Kaiou-ken. If the value of Kaiou-ken wasn't given, then there might be some potential in your feelings, but it's established quite clearly that it was just Kaiou-ken, which just doubles the battle power.

Likewise, he still wasn't at full power when Ginyu started reading him. He was still suppressing himself below his 90,000 cap when he first started powering up with the Kaiou-ken, so logically he would reach and pass 90,000 on his way up.

[kuartus4]

Did you check out what I posted? The Daizenshuu 7 says base Goku is at 90K.

I did. And it wouldn't be the first time the Daiz is wrong now would it?

It could be that you're wrong, Both Ginyu and the Daizenshuu are against you here.

It seems you are ignoring what I'm saying for some reason. Why?

I'll state it cleary one more time.

Goku only read at 90,000 AFTER using the kaioken for a few moments.

You don't have to take my word for it. Go check the scan.


Edit:

It makes no sense for Goku to be suppressing his base by any amount when he was getting owned by ginyu. And just because he didn't specify the kaioken multiplier doesn't rule out him using 3x kaioken. He said he would use kaioken in general as in the technique.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That was just the first level the scouter read. I seriously doubt it jumped from 60 to 90,000 and continued to only increase by 10k. It wasn't like it took awhile for him to mention that level, as it happens in the very next panel after his scouter starts measuring Goku's power.

[Darkprince410]

It makes no sense for Goku to be suppressing his base by any amount when he was getting owned by ginyu. And just because he didn't specify the kaioken multiplier doesn't rule out him using 3x kaioken. He said he would use kaioken in general as in the technique.

But he was though. He was constantly going down to 5,000 whenever not spiking his battle power to attack or defend. I ask you this, why would Ginyu initially estimate Goku's battle power at 60,000, then later increase his estimate to 85,000 if Goku was at the 60,000 you believe he had and wasn't using the Kaiou-ken yet?

[kuartus4]

That was just the first level the scouter read. I seriously doubt it jumped from 60 to 90,000 and continued to only increase by 10k. It wasn't like it took awhile for him to mention that level, as it happens in the very next panel after his scouter starts measuring Goku's power.

No, it wasn't the first level the scouter read. Please check the scan I linked to. You can see the scouter " beeping" as ginyu smiles, before ginyu mentioned 90,000. That was just the first level ginyu mentioned, because it went above the highest estimate ginyu gave for goku's hidden power which was 85,000. And you can see goku's power increasing from 90 to 110 k in the same box. That's an increase of 20 k in a couple of seconds. Which seems like about the same amount of time goku was charging the kaioken before ginyu said anything about 90,000.


@dark prince,


He was doing that against jeice and burter, who were much weaker than goku. He would not be doing that versus ginyu who was owning him. And he would not be suppressing versus ginyu before doing the kaioken because ginyu already knew he had a lot of power in reserve, making that strategy pointless against ginyu. He did it to jeice and burter because they relied solely on the scouter and it fooled them. But by the time ginyu showed up the jig was up about his base power being pretty high since ginyu didn't rely solely on his scouter.

And I'll repeat what I said in my previous post which I think you missed. Ginyu's estimate of 85,000 was about goku's hidded power, not about the power he had displayed. I provided the quotes in chronological order.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

No, it wasn't the first level the scouter read. Please check the scan I linked to. You can see the scouter " beeping" as ginyu smiles, before ginyu mentioned 90,000. That was just the first level ginyu mentioned, because it went above the highest estimate ginyu gave for goku's hidden power which was 85,000. And you can see goku's power increasing from 90 to 110 k in the same box. That's an increase of 20 k in a couple of seconds. Which seems like about the same amount of time goku was charging the kaioken before ginyu said anything about 90,000.

Even still, Goku is shown to be using the Kaio-Ken, not anything above that. Anytime Goku used anything higher than the normal Kaio-Ken, it was noted. Secondly, Ginyu assumed it'd take 60,000 to defeat the Ginyu Force--and later believes Goku's power would reach 85,000 at the most once he goes to full-power. Ginyu had no idea about the Kaio-Ken technique, so the 85,000 level is only taking Goku's natural full-power into consideration. That's pretty close to Goku's Daizenshuu Battle Power. Everything we have from Ginyu is an estimation he was basing off of Goku's performances. Ginyu was stronger, but neither were at their highest level considering Goku was still much faster at the levels they were fighting at. It makes perfect sense for Goku and Ginyu to be fighting at levels less than their true power.

[kuartus4]

No, it wasn't the first level the scouter read. Please check the scan I linked to. You can see the scouter " beeping" as ginyu smiles, before ginyu mentioned 90,000. That was just the first level ginyu mentioned, because it went above the highest estimate ginyu gave for goku's hidden power which was 85,000. And you can see goku's power increasing from 90 to 110 k in the same box. That's an increase of 20 k in a couple of seconds. Which seems like about the same amount of time goku was charging the kaioken before ginyu said anything about 90,000.

Even still, Goku is shown to be using the Kaio-Ken, not anything above that. Anytime Goku used anything higher than the normal Kaio-Ken, it was noted. Secondly, Ginyu assumed it'd take 60,000 to defeat the Ginyu Force--and later believes Goku's power would reach 85,000 at the most once he goes to full-power. Ginyu had no idea about the Kaio-Ken technique, so the 85,000 level is only taking Goku's natural full-power into consideration. That's pretty close to Goku's Daizenshuu Battle Power. Everything we have from Ginyu is an estimation he was basing off of Goku's performances. Ginyu was stronger, but neither were at their highest level considering Goku was still much faster at the levels they were fighting at. It makes perfect sense for Goku and Ginyu to be fighting at levels less than their true power.

Kaioken is a technique. As far as I know goku didn't specify he was using kaioken 2x. He just said he needed the technique in general.

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P12.4
Context: Ginyu seems to have Goku at his mercy
Goku: “In…incredible power! I can’t get loose! N-no choice…In this case, I gotta use the Kaio-Ken.

He says he need to use the kaio ken. As in the kaioken technique. The multiplier he has in mind could be anything at this point. This quote also shows that it is nonsense to assume goku was suppressing his base vs ginyu. If goku feels he needs the kaio ken to win, then suppressing his base goes squarely against goku's goal.

Do you have a quote where Ginyu says 60 k is enough to beat the ginyu force btw? All he says AFAIK is that he estimates goku to be at 60 k and he makes no mention of judging his power by what it would take to beat the ginyu force. But I could be missing something which is why I ask.

And ginyu doesn't need to know about the kaio ken technique. Its implied he is good a feeling ki. . He feels that goku is holding back power against him and assumes the highest goku can go is 85 thousand. Which would make no sense if goku is already at 90 thousand. I mean ginyu has his scouter on. He can just check. And the point that has gone uncountered is that goku only reaches 90 k after using the kaioken power up. Goku showed he didn't even need to power up visibly to full power vs jeice and burter since he could achieve it in an instant. He doesn't need to power up like he did for ginyu to reach his full base power. Had goku been at 90 k in base without the kaioken, ginyu would have noted it before the kaioken power up.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Kaioken is a technique. As far as I know goku didn't specify he was using kaioken 2x. He just said he needed the technique in general.

He just says "Kaioken" when he starts to power-up. And as we know, the normal Kaio-Ken is what doubles his power.

He says he need to use the kaio ken. As in the kaioken technique. The multiplier he has in mind could be anything at this point. This quote also shows that it is nonsense to assume goku was suppressing his base vs ginyu. If goku feels he needs the kaio ken to win, then suppressing his base goes squarely against goku's goal.

Ginyu was stronger, but Goku was clearly faster. It makes sense for neither to be fighting at their highest level. Goku didn't even realize Ginyu was that strong until he put him in the full nelson after Jheese distracted him. If Goku was focused on finishing the fight as quickly as possible, he wouldn't have been fighting the way he was. He would've just used Kaioken and went from there. Ginyu would've been crushing Goku with ease if he was at his max because he'd be way stronger than Goku. The fight shows otherwise.

Do you have a quote where Ginyu says 60 k is enough to beat the ginyu force btw? All he says AFAIK is that he estimates goku to be at 60 k and he makes no mention of judging his power by what it would take to beat the ginyu force. But I could be missing something which is why I ask.

No, you're right. I just checked. He just estimates Goku's true power to be 60,000 after realizing the scouter reading was inaccurate.

And ginyu doesn't need to know about the kaio ken technique. Its implied he is good a feeling ki. . He feels that goku is holding back power against him and assumes the highest goku can go is 85 thousand. Which would make no sense if goku is already at 90 thousand. I mean ginyu has his scouter on. He can just check. And the point that has gone uncountered is that goku only reaches 90 k after using the kaioken power up. Goku showed he didn't even need to power up visibly to full power vs jeice and burter since he could achieve it in an instant. He doesn't need to power up like he did for ginyu to reach his full base power. Had goku been at 90 k in base without the kaioken, ginyu would have noted it before the kaioken power up.

He can only get a good feel for how strong Goku is by fighting him. There's no way he'd be able to pick up on something as powerful as Kaio-Ken by fighting Goku. The only thing he'd be able to accurately understand is Goku's normal capabilities. Goku wasn't fighting at his highest level and Ginyu wasn't, either. Goku doesn't need to power-up in Base at any point, as he can use his full-power whenever. Since the Kaio-Ken doubles the output of your full-power, it likely took Goku up to his true power of 90,000 and went on to double his power. That's the reason why I think his max level was noted so quickly. I'm guessing the initial scouter reading was Goku's suppressed level and stuff.

[dbzfan7]

Um guys...we're not supposed to argue controversial choices here. That's not the point of this thread.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Um guys...we're not supposed to argue controversial choices here. That's not the point of this thread.

It's a controversial opinion thread. His choice to believe Goku's base BP is 60,000 isn't an opinion when there are multiple sources that claim he's wrong.