Are Goku's fingers broken or just messy drawing?

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Attitudefan
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Re: Are Goku's fingers broken or just messy drawing?

Post by Attitudefan » Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:33 pm

kei17 wrote:
NitroEX wrote: :eh: If anything shows signs of age it's those horribly overly simplistic Last House episodes. The art style and animation mentioned in this thread is superb in my view and if anything keep the show looking more modern than it actually is. When I watch a Last House episode that's when I notice the show's age. Studio Cockpit might not mimic Toriyama's style exactly but that's one of the things I enjoy about it, it helps keep the show looking varied and interesting visually.
Uchiyama is just bad. Timelessly bad. But it's not that his art style belongs to a trend of a certain time. On the other hand, Masunaga's style is very, very '90s-esque that you can immediately notice that it's drawn in the '90s by taking a glance at it, which greatly bothers me. I too enjoy varieties of art styles, but he seems to have gone a little too far. It's like he had his own way and didn't care Toriyama's original art from the beginning. As I've already stated, even Uchiyama tried to follow Toriyama's style though he barely had a talent for it.

ImageImage
I guess by saying that Masunaga's art style is very 90's esque, which it is through it's very sharp design, large eyes and eye pupils, Aoshima's art would look very 80's esque with it's very sketchy, dirty, gritty look. Aoshima reminds me of Fist of the North Star where Masunaga has a look of something like you see out of Sorcerer Hunters! But to me, it is not a bad thing, for I think it is very stylistic, and very pleasing to look at. Like the DBZ art today looks very typically 21st century post-cel artwork, heavily filtered and very shiny and has plastic like features. I think that is just bound to happen since popular styles of specific eras always flow down the chain and end up sneaking in to a little bit of everything during that specific time.

However, that is not to say that this era specific stylistic-ness is bad. On the contrary, I do prefer the 80's and 90's influenced art styles. But the dilemma is not how it was influenced, it's Masunaga ignoring most of the source material. It almost doesn't look like DBZ. Aoshima, for example, while still having those 80's influenced styles, still roots its main art style from Toriyama's source material. I think it would be fine if Masunaga had toned down his style to look more like the source material. His episodes really do stand out a lot when compared to the rest (sans Uchiyama). It looks very different, and THAT is the problem, not the fact that it looks 90's.
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada

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Re: Are Goku's fingers broken or just messy drawing?

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:09 pm

Different is not the problem. The character model is the beginning of animation, not the end. The skill of the key animator to convey their intention is the key. The Studio Cockpit cut conveys Vegeta's confidence and smugness. The Last House cut has no effort placed into it.
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Re: Are Goku's fingers broken or just messy drawing?

Post by Attitudefan » Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:30 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Different is not the problem. The character model is the beginning of animation, not the end. The skill of the key animator to convey their intention is the key. The Studio Cockpit cut conveys Vegeta's confidence and smugness. The Last House cut has no effort placed into it.
Oh for sure! I agree completely! Last House is awful! They were watchable (kinda) through DB up to the Android arc. But once the Android arc starts really get going Last House is unwatchable.
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada

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Re: Are Goku's fingers broken or just messy drawing?

Post by DarkPrince_92 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:36 pm

Last House isn't unwatchebale for the most part. Uchiyama is unwatchable. Taiichiro Ohara actually animates very well, and Shida is amazing as we all know. The character designs that Uchiyama laid out is what held Last House back. :problem:
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Re: Are Goku's fingers broken or just messy drawing?

Post by Attitudefan » Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:42 pm

DarkPrince_92 wrote:Last House isn't unwatchebale for the most part. Uchiyama is unwatchable. Taiichiro Ohara actually animates very well, and Shida is amazing as we all know. The character designs that Uchiyama laid out is what held Last House back. :problem:
I am wondering how Uchiyama stayed so long on the team. He must have been a reasonable price for Toei to keep on for so long.
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada

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Re: Are Goku's fingers broken or just messy drawing?

Post by DarkPrince_92 » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:03 am

Attitudefan wrote:I am wondering how Uchiyama stayed so long on the team. He must have been a reasonable price for Toei to keep on for so long.
Or why they kept him as supervisor and didn't let one of the others take over. I'm sure if Shida was the supervisor and just let Uchiyama... inbeween or something, the studio would probably be one of my favorites.
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Re: Are Goku's fingers broken or just messy drawing?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:19 am

Uchiyama was the founder of Last House so it would be up to him if he wanted to let someone else act as animation supervisor for their episodes. By Dragon Ball Z episode #145 Uchiyama and Ohara Tai'ichirou were the only key animators working on their episodes (barring episode #178). I suspect Toei continued to use Last House because they were able to provide an entire episode every three-to-four weeks.
ラストハウス/ Last House 5, 8, 12, 15, 18, 22, 26, 29, 32, 35, 38, 42, 45, 49, 53, 55, 59, 62, 67, 72, 74, 79, 83, 85, 88, 92, 96, 100, 105, 108, 113, 118, 123, 128, 132, 136, 141, 145, 149, 151, 156, 161, 165, 169, 172, 178, 181, 186, 190, 194, 197, 203, 208, 212, 218, 223, 228, 233, 238, 243, 248, 254, 259, 265, 269, 273, 278, 283, 288

内山正幸/ Masayuki Uchiyama 35, 79, 83, 85, 128, 132, 141, 145, 149, 151, 156, 161, 165, 169, 172, 178, 181, 186, 190, 194, 197, 203, 208, 212, 218, 223, 228, 233, 238, 243, 248, 254, 259, 265, 269, 273, 278, 283, 288

小原太一郎/ Tai’ichirō Ohara 1, 5, 8, 12, 15, 18, 22, 26, 29, 32, 35, 38, 42, 45, 49, 53, 55, 59, 62, 67, 72, 74, 79, 83, 85, 88, 92, 96, 100, 105, 108, 113, 118, 123, 128, 132, 136, 141, 145, 149, 151, 156, 161, 165, 169, 172, 178, 181, 186, 190-191, 194, 197, 203, 208, 212, 218, 223, 228, 233, 238, 243, 248, 254, 257, 259, 265, 269, 273, 278, 283, 288

志田直俊/ Naotoshi Shida 1, 5, 8, 12, 15, 18, 22, 26, 29, 32, 35, 38, 42, 45, 49, 53, 55, 59, 62, 67, 72, 74, 79, 83, 85, 88, 92, 96, 100, 105, 108, 113, 118, 123, 128, 132, 136, 141, 159, 164, 185, 199, 206, 216, 242, 267, 277, 280, 289; SP2

片田亜起夫/ Akio Katada 1, 5, 8, 12, 18, 22, 26, 29, 32, 42, 59

佐伯哲也/ Tetsuya Saeki 1, 5, 18, 22, 26, 29, 32, 35, 38, 42, 45, 49, 55, 59, 62, 67, 88, 92, 96, 100, 105, 199, 202, 209, 214, 221, 226, 234, 239, 261, 267, 271, 276, 280, 291

三柴直樹/ Naoki Mishiba 67, 178

伊東美奈子/ Manako Itō 118, 178

清水博明/ Hiroaki Shimizu 178

新井洋子/ Yōko Arai 118, 178
When you have one bad animator (Uchiyama Masayuki) providing most of the key animation for an entire episode every three-to-six weeks while also acting as animation supervisor you are bound to have some really terrible episodes. I really do wonder what happened mid-way through the series. Uchiyama began regularly providing key animation beginning with episode #128. He was no longer assigning key animators to the series other than himself, Ohara, and Shida Naotoshi. Then, suddenly, Shida is hired away by Toei Animation and begins providing key animation for their in-house episodes. It's like there was a mass exodus. Did Toei suddenly offer to pay less so Uchiyama decided to do most of the work himself so he could keep as much money as possible? Did Uchiyama drive his key animators insane, thus prompting them to move elsewhere? It's insane. After all those years of working so closely with Series Director Nishio Daisuke Last House suddenly becomes the series' labor mule.

Stories lost to time, I guess...
Last edited by JulieYBM on Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are Goku's fingers broken or just messy drawing?

Post by DarkPrince_92 » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:37 am

Unfortunate to say the least.
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Re: Are Goku's fingers broken or just messy drawing?

Post by Attitudefan » Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:58 am

Unfortunate that Uchiyama was a supervisor and that the stories are lost to time. However, He didn't seem to ever be 'good', so how was he able to fund a studio and hire key animators whom were better than him? It's surprising he lasted as long as he did! He is one of the worst I have ever seen, no disrespect of course, but it is the truth.

A mass exodus? Very possible since many of the animators were very talented and were probably had more of a chance in the future to work with Toei on new projects than stick with Uchiyama. Episode 156 is one of the worst episodes I think I have ever seen. It's awful. Looks worse than amateur that I have seen.
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Re: Are Goku's fingers broken or just messy drawing?

Post by Vice » Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:42 am

The Last House episodes could provide some decent movement animation at times, when, at worst, they were overly simplistic, but they went to shit midway through the series and only the triangle guy episodes ever looked worse.

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